106 replies to this topic

[oldradagast]

Humpday, on 28 April 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

I agree.

On a side note for those who have absolutely no idea how software development works in the field.

With all due respect, I know exactly how software development works in the field, and I'm heavily involved in it every day at my engineering job. If we had teams or workers who approached actual professional level work as PGI approaches this game, they would have been reassigned to "other projects" or fired years ago. Hell, I've done a better job listening to customer feedback and debugging things in my hobbies and side projects than PGI has ever done in this game.

In the real business world, you don't get to ignore mountains of facts and very pointed feedback about how badly something sucks - like the skill maze - and simply pretend it's "just people whining about refunds." But this isn't the real world. It's a niche game heavily populated by white-knights and grognards who would will gladly put up with all forms of abuse just to pilot a Madcat one last time. In short, the perfect customers to mindlessly milk for a company like PGI who's not actually interested in doing a good job or producing a sane produce of high quality. They know their customer base will never leave since this is the only way for them to get their Mechwarrior / Battletech fix, so they don't have to care.

Edited by oldradagast, 28 April 2017 - 06:59 PM.

[oldradagast]

Rakshasa, on 28 April 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Well, it's gotta be launched if it's going to be properly tested. Things can be tweaked and fixed from there.

No, it doesn't "have to be launched to be tested."

People have been testing it in nearly identical forms to it's current laughable state for weeks - months, even. All of the flaws with the skill maze, from its idiotic UI to the dead nodes and gated nodes, have been pointed out dozens of times. Same with the removal of needed quirks for tons of bad mechs, and the mobility nerf from engine decoupling.

If PGI had ANY intent on actually fixing this mess or listening to feedback, they would have done it already. But they have not, which obviously means THEY think the skill maze - a stunning failure of game design that makes games from the 1990's look polished and modern - is the proper way MWO should be balanced and played.

You're kidding yourself if you think they are suddenly going to about-face after this goes life and fix the mess they created. This is PGI we're talking about, and they've made it very clear that while they are willing to haggle about refunds, they will not address the fundamental flaws in the skill maze and associated nerfs.

[R Valentine]

If the skill tree doesn't change anything, then we don't need it. Delete it with fire. No need for useless things that do nothing.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

I'm not aware I'm calling you out for being boorish? Yes, sure I am. Did I post a thread telling folks to stop complaining etc? Did I dismiss a guys relatively coherent point because he was on a new account? Did I point out that you complaining about people using #'s to argue credibility (i.e. stats) was just as silly as post counts and date of account (when the guy clearly has been playing a bit lately)? I sure did all of those things.

Do you denigrate people with differing opinions by calling them delusional, insane, (So can we please stop with the whole "South will rise again", "gonna Riot" idiotic hyperbole)? Did state people that disagree with ya are holding PGI hostage, that people who disagree with your pov are folks who put lie to having faith in humanity's intelligence? You don't like dissenting opinions so it's whining? Poor Bishop's game is "held hostage" by some boogieman in the community, because apparently PGI cannot think for itself? Anyone who disagrees with you is apparently a whiner, whining for freebies. Or they only offer "hemorrhoidal opinions."

People have pointed out rightfully so, that some of them didn't get involved in the fight on the first PTS iteration and that they are now the ones getting hosed (as they see on the GSP/CB issue) and frankly, they bring up some good points. But apparently they are whiners, who should blame the boogiemen for their plight and not get your "sympathy," lol...I assure you they don't want that. They want their equity considered. And btw, as Vandalhooch pointed out, folks aren't by and large asking for GSP AND CBills. They're asking for the option to take the latter in lieu of. There might be some outlier asking for both, but they aren't part of the majority of any of these threads.

Those are all things you've said. Just trying to chill dissent on the forums because even when folks provided logical, coherent reasoning without vitriol, you just want to dismiss it and oveload the forums with post-count. Btw...all of the passive-aggressive "bro's, princesses etc?" They just paint ya out as another PC-principal. Don't like getting called on it, just argue the merits.



I hope that guy doesn't work for a car company Radagast, that's all I'm saying.

I get it. At some point I said something you don't like. Just a shame you don't have the actual objectivity to realize you are being EXACTLY what you are claiming I am.

Don't feel bad though, that level of self honesty is actually pretty rare.

[oldradagast]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

I hope that guy doesn't work for a car company Radagast, that's all I'm saying.

The fact that we have people claiming that we need to deploy the skill maze to test it or really understand it is damning indictment of the critical thinking ability of many people these days.

The skill maze sucks. The facts have been gone over in painful detail why it sucks, and the flaws with it run so deep that shuffling a few nodes around or tweaking values will not fix it. The next logical step is to go back to the drawing board and start over - not deploy a failure and act surprised when it fails.

Edited by oldradagast, 28 April 2017 - 07:20 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kiran Yagami, on 28 April 2017 - 07:17 PM, said:

If the skill tree doesn't change anything, then we don't need it. Delete it with fire. No need for useless things that do nothing.

And yet we know that isn't going to happen.

And again, well done actually not figuring out the point.

Stuff will be added. Stuff will be changed. People will freak out, make huge whinefests on the forums....

and at the end of the day, most people will just keep playing the damn game anyhow.

But apparently, saying so is a terrible terrible crime that greatly offends poor Lukoi

oldradagast, on 28 April 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

The fact that we have people claiming that we need to deploy the skill maze to test it or really understand it is damning indictment of the critical thinking ability of many people these days.

The skill maze sucks. The facts have been gone over in painful detail why it sucks, and the flaws with it run so deep that shuffling a few nodes around or tweaking values will not fix it. The next logical step is to go back to the drawing board and start over - not deploy a failure and act surprised when it fails.

The fact that you don't like it, or can't figure it out, not actually the same as it sucking, not needing testing....

and the fact is, to get proper testing, yeah, we need a bigger data pool. Sorry that you just indicted yourself in this. Actually.. no, no I'm not.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 April 2017 - 07:23 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

C'mon Bishop Whiner, that all you got (btw, Lukoi Charms is a pretty funny riff on the name)? Btw, you quote me an awful lot for someone who's got me on ignore. Man, you just cannot keep from ******* up around here this week lol.

[Khobai]

Quote

The fact that you don't like it, or can't figure it out, not actually the same as it sucking, not needing testing....

um if people cant figure out a skill tree in a video game, theres a good chance it sucks

if your skill tree isnt simple and intuitive, and is a hexlabyrinth with 6 different types of xp, you probably did it wrong

[Vyx]

When you look at the effort through the wrong lens, you get a picture that doesn't make sense.

The idea that the Skill Tree is designed to provide greater diversity and customization is foolish.

The only reason PGI spends any time or effort on anything is to make money.

When you look at this effort through that lens, it makes perfect sense.

How much does it cost to respec your mech using the current system? Own/swap the module: zero cost. Dozens of spare weapons and ammo in the garage: zero cost.

How much will it cost under the new system? Spend XP/cbills every single change.

Why do you think they removed the bundled premium time from the Civil War packs? Duh. That's something they want you to buy.

It's all about taking your currency. It's never about bettering the game. Gotta find a way to mine the cheapskates.

Use the proper lens.

Edited by Vyx, 28 April 2017 - 07:32 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

and the fact is, to get proper testing, yeah, we need a bigger data pool.

Ah c'mon, you don't think PGI could find a way to get people on PTS with incentives like soooo many game developers have done if that's all that they need is more data? You are busy "indicting" yourself here

[Bishop Steiner]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

Ah c'mon, you don't think PGI could find a way to get people on PTS with incentives like soooo many game developers have done if that's all that they need is more data? You are busy "indicting" yourself here

oh you mean exactly like I mentioned... that PGI should do an Event on the PTS with "real account rewards"?
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5716652
Oops. Guess you missed that polishing your soapbox. That's the danger of getting blinded by your own halo.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 April 2017 - 07:28 PM.

[Druarc]

I think for those of us going to full mastered mechs there is little change, but for new players it'll allow them to get small improvements at a much steadier pace, I know when I started it felt like for ever between gains on each mech, and once basiced the next step was crazy huge.

[Bishop Steiner]

Druarc, on 28 April 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

I think for those of us going to full mastered mechs there is little change, but for new players it'll allow them to get small improvements at a much steadier pace, I know when I started it felt like for ever between gains on each mech, and once basiced the next step was crazy huge.

yeah, though I do wonder just how noticeable the steps will be while grinding them.

That, and the lack of clarity for a new player were some of my main concerns in the first PTS. And those still concern me.

I jsut dunno if 1% is going to make a "visible" enough difference while a person is grinding, ya know?

[Kodyn]

You're all being so passive-aggressive and hypocritical in this thread at least that it makes some of my rants about Russ look like a gentle hug...

I don't even care about sides, for anyone reading this thread with an outside perspective, you guys pretty much all look like little kids slinging mud at each other and yelling "he did it, he did it!". Do you realize that when you post all the passive-aggressive snark, that instead of being entertaining and making you look cool on the internet, it just kinda kills all your future arguments, because we then get to remember how immature, whiny, and vindictive you folks can get when you don't like each other and are trying to make the other guy look bad?

You're all pretty, you're all right to an extent and wrong to an extent, now chill out before you have an aneurysm over a forum post.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 07:38 PM, said:

Well I don't bother following you everywhere (funny that you think that), so no I took your condescending comment to him at face value. I didn't realize it was required reading to learn the forum-lord's entire posting history so I knew from which "context" he might be chatting.

So which is it "bro"? Do we need a bigger data pool via an incentivized event per your previous thread, or do we need to just launch it as you imply to poor old radagast up there? I mean, he brought up a reasonable point that you just haaad to get all snarky with.

you realize that they are not mutually exclusive? Or that saying one thing needs to be done doesn't preclude being a realist about the likelihood of it happening and then you know, working with what you do realistically have?

Oops. Guess not.

As for your stalking issue... 40 some totally off topic posts just so you could show how holy you are, well, gosh, IDK where I could be getting that idea from.

Too busy being self righteous, I guess?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 April 2017 - 08:20 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

Sure, I get that. You get that you were being an unnecessary douche to Radagast on the issue? That's the thing I keep reminding you of.

Look, we're both pretty. Wanna keep going and risk ruining your mascara? (See, witty rejoinder right there at the end to pair up with your delightful self-righteous crack). Maybe I'm just trying to increase my post count man, you might wanna consider that.

Kind of funny how you completely overlook the entirely douchey nature of your pal's post. Hence my point about being blinded by your own righteousness.

"The fact that we have people claiming that we need to deploy the skill maze to test it or really understand it is damning indictment of the critical thinking ability of many people these days."

To which I replied EXACTLY in kind. So which is it? If I am being some big bad jerk ...then so is your buddy...yet I don't see you excoriating him over it?

So again.. the simplest answer if I offend you so greatly..is to put me on ignore and stop reading?stalking my posts. Because you sure as hell aren't being some objective guardian of the Forums purity, no matter how much you proclaim yourself to be.

[Lukoi Banacek]

So couple of fun facts for ya:

I have never declared myself the forum purity/morality guy at all.
I've never referred to tier as a method of determining credibility (outside of it demonstrates some measure of experience in the game).

And you're right "my buddy" as you call him probably acted a bit harsh there. But he's not been doing it for days like you have. Nor is he singling someone out as you have in recent days.

I think it's clear we're not going to agree on this issue any time soon, but as others have pointed out, you've been posturing yourself like your word is the only word, and dismissing all others as somehow beneath you. It's not the worst form of bullying but it certainly doesn't lead to civil discourse on the forums. So, we can continue batting the badminton back and forth if ya want.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 28 April 2017 - 08:34 PM.

[Elizander]

Patch it already. :3

[Lukoi Banacek]

Elizander, on 28 April 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

Patch it already. :3

didn't they get a tentative time for this to get applied? For some reason I thought it was set to go live NLT June....

edit: I see from the news, it's meant for May as they bring it down for more tweaking. So still on schedule I guess.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 28 April 2017 - 09:03 PM.

[Baba_Yaga]

oldradagast, on 28 April 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

So, even you - white knight to the bitter end - admit that the as-shown skill maze is a stupid waste that basically changes nothing.

If that's the case - and that's an optimistic assessment - why should it be deployed?

Why should we all have to waste our time slogging through that idiotic, tangled web of false choices, worthless skills, and gated skills to basically fix nothing about the game?

The skill maze, at best, fixes nothing but slaps another layer of needless complexity on top of everything else in the game AND adds a respec cost, which is completely unacceptable in a game like this, where mech experimentation and customization is a huge part of the fun.

At worst, the skill maze and related quirk removal and mobility nerf will basically render a huge number of mechs utterly unplayable. That could very well kill the game, or at least choke the life out of PGI's mech pack strategy, which is all they have going.

So, tell me again why we should deploy this trash to the live server if even you can't find a good reason to do it? You haven't presented a single argument to support the skill tree other than "stuff changes" and "I'm sick of listening to people repeat facts over and over about why the skill maze sucks." Those are not good reasons.

Finally, someone with a brain!