223 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

The issue I take, and am guessing ZUUL also, though I could be wrong is the insistence from certain portions of the competitive playerbase that what works in Comp ALWAYS works direct port over, to the general public.

Because it doesn't.

Maybe this is where I am misunderstanding what ZUUL or perhaps yourself is saying. Because I agree. With bads or new players, the best builds are probably just going to be laservomit, hands down. It's not as good as PPFLD, but they are not good enough to use PPFLD effectively anyways.

The assumption that I am making is that the player in question has the requisite skill to use PPFLD effectively (which imo, is not a very high bar). So the only thing being called into question is what they choose to play, given that they are just as good with PPFLD as with everything else.

But, if they aren't good at PPFLD, they would probably be better served by improving at it, rather than ignoring it. But this is what distinguishes competitive minded players from everybody else - they are always seeking the best option, and if they aren't good at using it, they begin learning it. I experienced this recently in Unreal Tournament. It's super easy to use flak and rocket launchers to smash just about everybody, but shock rifle is pretty much the best weapon in general. I almost never encounter people who are good with the shock rifle, so I can keep wrecking people with my flak and rockets. In fact, I'll be at a distinct disadvantage with shock because I'm specifically bad with it. But because I know that the shock rifle is what people use at higher levels, I've made it my goal and challenge to learn how to use it. When I can start fragging consistently with it, I'll know I've improved as a player, and that is what is rewarding for me.

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

For every player like yourself or Quicksilver I see post, I read 5-6 posts that are pretty blatant "Winning at any cost, any tactic is the only acceptable fun"..... even if it is playing wackamole over and over again.

Personally, I find whackamole fun. I find playing at range is a lot more thought-provoking and involved. Aiming at long distances is more challenging, finding good peek positions requires experimentation and understanding, the exact mechanics of peeking, aiming, defensive twisting, and returning to cover is all a very involved process. For poptarting it's not that much different, except you have a much smaller window to fire your shot and you have to calculate lead very quickly so aiming is a bit more challenging and feels more rewarding when you nail shots. And you can't just jump straight up and down statically, you have to always be choosing new spots and trajectories so that you're not an easy target.

Plus, long range battles can last a long time, there's a lot of opportunity for tension to build up. To be unsure whether or not you're winning trades, or shifting positions especially if you're working with a team. Brawling on the other hand is like PE to me. You might go through all the foreplay of planning an approach and scouting things out, but once you call the push it's just get in and get it done and ... it's all over quickly. Meh. Not as satisfying, imo.

Edited by Tarogato, 29 April 2017 - 02:55 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

But, if they aren't good at PPFLD, they would probably be better served by improving at it, rather than ignoring it.

this is yet another disconnect....

If you aren't constantly tryign to be comp...why play?

A lot of people play games just to have fun. Blow off steam. Aren't ABLE to spend the hours needed to "GIT GUD". Have subpar gear, or even reflexes for this.

In fact, judging by the disparity in numbers between competitive players and "normal" ones... I'd say that is far more indicative of the majority of players, in virtually ANY game.

So if they don't, for any of the above listed reasons, have the ability to "git gud"... should they just stick to candy crush? Because that is what a lot of Epeen commentary on most games forums seem to indicate.

Which I might add, is a sure way to ensure the servers go dark.

[Tarogato]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

this is yet another disconnect....

If you aren't constantly tryign to be comp...why play?

A lot of people play games just to have fun. Blow off steam. Aren't ABLE to spend the hours needed to "GIT GUD". Have subpar gear, or even reflexes for this.

If they are just casual players, then this entire discussion doesn't apply to them. They're gonna do what they think is fun, regardless of whether it's effective or not. And who cares? As long as they don't voluntarily choose to play bad builds and also complain when tryhards beat them with meta.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Personally, I find whackamole fun. I find playing at range is a lot more thought-provoking and involved. Aiming at long distances is more challenging, finding good peek positions requires experimentation and understanding, the exact mechanics of peeking, aiming, defensive twisting, and returning to cover is all a very involved process. For poptarting it's not that much different, except you have a much smaller window to fire your shot and you have to calculate lead very quickly so aiming is a bit more challenging and feels more rewarding when you nail shots. And you can't just jump straight up and down statically, you have to always be choosing new spots and trajectories so that you're not an easy target.

Plus, long range battles can last a long time, there's a lot of opportunity for tension to build up. To be unsure whether or not you're winning trades, or shifting positions especially if you're working with a team. Brawling on the other hand is like PE to me. You might go through all the foreplay of planning an approach and scouting things out, but once you call the push it's just get in and get it done and ... it's all over quickly. Meh. Not as satisfying, imo.

ANY playstyle, any MEta when it is the ONLY option is old and boring.

Poptarting was so strong at the time that NOTHING else remotely could compete. And sorry, THAT, is boring. Playing said Poptart, and having to have your head on a swivel, because a fast flanking brawler can Eff up your day? Now things start to get interesting again.

Just my 2ct.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

If they are just casual players, then this entire discussion doesn't apply to them. They're gonna do what they think is fun, regardless of whether it's effective or not. And who cares? As long as they don't voluntarily choose to play bad builds and also complain when tryhards beat them with meta.

And yet so many electrons are spent BY your compatriots pounding on these players, that they are bad, should feel bad and should essentially just quit playing.

There is, in general, a black and white mentality that doessn't allow for any other options but binary. (and to be fair, life seems to be getting more liek that...people just don't want to agree or compromise on anything).

But the majority, even on the forums, are closer to causal, than comp. Hell, even some who used to compete (I never tried on this game, but DID play high level in MW3 and 4, though my real comp play was the old Street Fighter games), don't have the time to desire to anymore.

And to be honest, it wasn't just time and age that got me to stop competing (though having a realistic outlook, I am too dang old and slow, now, what with a crippled right hand) BUT the changing attitudes. The growth of binary epeen, and the intolerant attitudes. The Ville's, Crunks etc. If one has to act like a **** to compete, not interested. And I know one doesn't, necessarily, but it sure seems a lot more common than not, these days.

And there was another crucial shift in mentality. And I don't know when it happened. Or even how gradual it was. The Comp Mind of today is to only play the bleeding edge, and run to any exploit possible. Back in the day, that was usually frowned on and considered "needing a crutch", or being a cheeze player". No one really respected the Guile or Chun Li players back in the day.

Most of the top players, back then, used Ken, who was considered the ultimate pinnacle of "skill" play at the time. No real egregious flaws, and it took a lot of skill to max out. But he didn't rely on super ez button mash cheeze to succeed either. (maybe the difference between say the Night Gyr tart and a Pulse Laser Vomit build today...... no one would respect the Laser Vomit players, because they were taking the cheap and easy road to high damage scores).

But the guys EVERYONE respected? Were the folks who could compete, at the upper tiers, with E Honda, Dhalsim or Zangief (I was a Blanka and Dhalsim guy... though I only got to the regionals like twice with Blanka. I was good.. but not a champ, not by a long shot). They almost never could win the top of the championship (almost) but everyone acknowledged that to even break the top tier finals in those characters took a skill and dedication that might transcend that the the guy who actually won, using Ken, did.

And that kind of play and player, seems to be looked down and and derided by the modern comp circuit, in general. You'll see one or two begrudgingly accepted (Jman5 with his old HBK-4J), but other people trying to follow that route? Are ridiculed, belittled and generally discouraged.

If you don't want to play in the narrow defined Meta Box, go home, essentially.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 April 2017 - 03:12 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

There is. BUT, if you go by the party line being pushed by some here, even to some degree Taragato, those are the robots even bads should be using.
.

Who? Because I do not see the majority of comp players saying you only play X. I dont see Tarogato saying that either.

I do see comp players who call out those who ***** about dying to "meta" because they tire of taking the blame for folks who dont want to the learn the nuances of the game or accept that certain things create synergy and certain things dont.

There are some things that work better in this game than others, and while there were always be hairs to split, there is quite a bit of consensus on what tbose things are. And debating the finer points can invite some great discussion. Part of the problem I think, is that folks often conflate "best" or "meta" or "effective" or "fun" as being interchangable and they are not synonyms. But neither are they mutually exclusive.

There is no party,line btw, because there is no party. The comp scene and those that undertake it are a much more diverse crowd, probably more now than previously in this game. Consensus doesnt mean cookie cutter and there is clearly more than one "meta" at work.

[Requiemking]

Well, looks like the Knockoff will suffer every problem I predicted it would. It's sole redeeming factor is that single ST Ballistic hardpoint on the A variant, but then again, why bother when the MAD-IIC exists?

[Tordin]

Only meta is an ever changing one. Thats an healthy one. Comfort zoners that want to murder any change PGI tries to implement (good and bad) only see value in a few viable mech chassi, want other weapons than gauss and ppc to go and burninto oblivion. Because that the fun they want the game to be, screw the other players.

Heres what comfort zoners really want, their mech god, only thing PGI should do so they can have it cozy, so generalists pilots will suffer at the hands at

[Tarogato]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

And yet so many electrons are spent BY your compatriots pounding on these players, that they are bad, should feel bad and should essentially just quit playing.

There is, in general, a black and white mentality that doessn't allow for any other options but binary. (and to be fair, life seems to be getting more liek that...people just don't want to agree or compromise on anything).

But the majority, even on the forums, are closer to causal, than comp. Hell, even some who used to compete (I never tried on this game, but DID play high level in MW3 and 4, though my real comp play was the old Street Fighter games), don't have the time to desire to anymore.

And to be honest, it wasn't just time and age that got me to stop competing (though having a realistic outlook, I am too dang old and slow, now, what with a crippled right hand) BUT the changing attitudes. The growth of binary epeen, and the intolerant attitudes. The Ville's, Crunks etc. If one has to act like a **** to compete, not interested. And I know one doesn't, necessarily, but it sure seems a lot more common than not, these days.

And there was another crucial shift in mentality. And I don't know when it happened. Or even how gradual it was. The Comp Mind of today is to only play the bleeding edge, and run to any exploit possible. Back in the day, that was usually frowned on and considered "needing a crutch", or being a cheeze player". No one really respected the Guile or Chun Li players back in the day.

Most of the top players, back then, used Ken, who was considered the ultimate pinnacle of "skill" play at the time. No real egregious flaws, and it took a lot of skill to max out. But he didn't rely on super ez button mash cheeze to succeed either. (maybe the difference between say the Night Gyr tart and a Pulse Laser Vomit build today...... no one would respect the Laser Vomit players, because they were taking the cheap and easy road to high damage scores).

But the guys EVERYONE respected? Were the folks who could compete, at the upper tiers, with E Honda, Dhalsim or Zangief (I was a Blanka and Dhalsim guy... though I only got to the regionals like twice with Blanka. I was good.. but not a champ, not by a long shot). They almost never could win the top of the championship (almost) but everyone acknowledged that to even break the top tier finals in those characters took a skill and dedication that might transcend that the the guy who actually won, using Ken, did.

And that kind of play and player, seems to be looked down and and derided by the modern comp circuit, in general. You'll see one or two begrudgingly accepted (Jman5 with his old HBK-4J), but other people trying to follow that route? Are ridiculed, belittled and generally discouraged.

If you don't want to play in the narrow defined Meta Box, go home, essentially.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I feel like that analogy brings in another variable though... Street Fighter is 1v1. MWO is a battlefield with 12 mechs on the field that want to kill you at any opportunity. I feel like it's a lot harder to do consistently well with a weaker choice in a 12v12 environment than it is when it is just 1v1. I've had close calls in 1v1s against Phoenix Hawks and Vindicators, and even lost a series against a player in an AWS-8T. But those mechs don't hold up very well in 12v12.


But yeah, there is a little of that - the playing underperformers, and being respected as somebody who plays underperformers. I think it's Quicksilver that likes to play Vindicators for instance. And he inspired me to get them for myself, and I do take them out when I feel like handicapping myself for the extra challenge. But then when I do poorly, I don't know whether it was my fault or the mech's fault. At least when I'm in the best mechs and best builds in the game, I can't blame the mech, so I know it's my fault every time. That's another reason I gravitate towards "best" mechs - I can't put the blame on them when I do poorly in them.

[Pariah Devalis]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

You're saying basically this:

"The meta mechs and builds which are carefully weeded out by the hundreds of competitive players trying to find the strongest mechs and builds are at a disadvantage compared to non-meta builds."

Please explain to me how this makes any sense.

Story time.

Back when CNCI was at its peak, we were involved in RHOD. At the time, the meta that was in play was very much like it is today. Mid to long ranged PPFLD. We entered this competitive environment as total unknowns. We proceeded to utterly demolish every competitive team we ran across until we burned out due to being a small comp team who had to fight nonstop. #smallclanproblems

A good part of the reason why that happened was precisely because we were unknowns - people didn't expect us to be as good as we were, so we were never taken seriously until we already did the damage we had to. However, more importantly, another part was because we rejected the tactics that were in play in the competitive environment at the time. I want to stress the word "environment," here, as this is exceedingly important.

We came in, and we rejected the play style that was in vogue among comp teams at the time. Everyone was so focused on coordinated, pinpoint, front loaded medium to long range damage that the thought of a brawl oriented team at the time was absolutely discarded as a bad idea. We decided to flip the situation, force the enemy teams to play by our rules, and brawled the ever living hell out of them. We took something that didn't fit the competitive environment and forced it down their throats, and their well oiled machines could not keep up with the environment we imposed upon them. Eventually, people caught on, and competition got stiffer since our enemies started to become more brawl oriented, as well.

Now that that little backstory is out of the way, you might be asking "what the hell does that have to do with this contradiction I pointed out to ZUUL?"

Everything.

The environment in which the coordinated PPFLD meta exceeds at is when you are with like minded individuals who will coordinate that firepower. Without that coordinated single target nuking, the overall effectiveness of the meta builds are heavily reduced. It is, however, fairly easy to put 11 idiots in front of you, and farm the enemy to the best of your capabilities while your allies are treated as sacrificial pawns. Should the map be a brawling map, however, or an enemy configured for close range combat gets past your allies and onto you, you are at an extremely severe disadvantage. Because public queue is such a madhouse, the environment is unpredictable. Not your allies. Not your enemies. This means any configuration spec'd for a specific tactic will almost never operate at its peak effectiveness and will, in turn, be open to its inherent weaknesses.

This is why a configuration that is designed specifically for a competitive environment might not fair very well in the public environment. They might be easier to use than some builds, but every configuration has a weakness, and the public environment gives ample opportunities for you and your collection of randoms to be jammed into a situation that plays directly against you.

Furthermore, you cannot expect the same degree of coordination in public as you can in competitive drops. Given coordination is the missing piece that lets a comp team maximize their specific tactic of engagement, not having this is a huge wrench in the system that a comp based build is designed to operate within. To make matters worse, your allies might have mechs configured in direct conflict with your own, and operate erratically and in ways you cannot support. One mech against a domino effect of allied mech losses will fall. This is a team game.


TL;DR:
Competitive meta builds work best in competitive environments, but one cannot expect them to function anywhere near their maximum potential in public environment. They are not in their element. Thus, there is no contradiction.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 29 April 2017 - 04:18 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I feel like that analogy brings in another variable though... Street Fighter is 1v1. MWO is a battlefield with 12 mechs on the field that want to kill you at any opportunity. I feel like it's a lot harder to do consistently well with a weaker choice in a 12v12 environment than it is when it is just 1v1. I've had close calls in 1v1s against Phoenix Hawks and Vindicators, and even lost a series against a player in an AWS-8T. But those mechs don't hold up very well in 12v12.


But yeah, there is a little of that - the playing underperformers, and being respected as somebody who plays underperformers. I think it's Quicksilver that likes to play Vindicators for instance. And he inspired me to get them for myself, and I do take them out when I feel like handicapping myself for the extra challenge. But then when I do poorly, I don't know whether it was my fault or the mech's fault. At least when I'm in the best mechs and best builds in the game, I can't blame the mech, so I know it's my fault every time. That's another reason I gravitate towards "best" mechs - I can't put the blame on them when I do poorly in them.

For me it's simple.... I look to my averages. If I do significantly better or worse, it's me, not the machine.

I am curious though, you are right, 1v1 vs group vs group is certainly a part of this, and even some "not wanting to let the team down". That I get. But even with Solaris 1v1, I don't really see any trend or inclination for people to embrace the challenge of subpar robots, etc. (of course, maybe it's also impacted by the premium time, inability to spectate, etc).

And it makes me wonder.... I remember after Street Fighter and even Mortal Kombat...we got games like Killer Instinct...where the "combos" weren't really manual combinations of attacks you did, but preset button patterns you performed to get you 80-100 hit combos. And if IIRC, even Marvel vs Capcom, and Super Smash Brothers, etc all follow this pattern? Where it became about memorizing (and knowing when to unleash) a pattern than the actual skill of manually building (and modifying on the cly) combos like the old SF titles.

It was also during this time that I started to notice the shift from challenging oneself to using the best of the best, all the time. :/

Pariah Devalis, on 29 April 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

TL;DR:
Competitive meta builds work best in competitive environments, but one cannot expect them to function anywhere near their maximum potential in public environment. They are not in their element. Thus, there is no contradiction.

Yeah... kind of what I was trying to say...but in a less rambly, more concise package. Aces, that.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Yeah... kind of what I was trying to say...but in a less rambly, more concise package. Aces, that.

I donno. I was pretty rambly. Only added the TL;DR after I realized I wrote a book. >_>

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 April 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

I donno. I was pretty rambly. Only added the TL;DR after I realized I wrote a book. >_>

Yeah, you wrote a book. I tend to write Encyclopedia Sets. Sooooo... yeah.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Lukoi Banacek, on 29 April 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

But those aren't cancer mechs. They are manned by players who aren't good in them. There's a difference.

If I see a poptart NTG, I don't assume it's a god among men but I do assume it's a stronger mech than the 9-ERLL KDK-1 I played with and against multiple times last night.

If I get in a mech that requires more patience, better situational awareness to ensure proper positioning, or sacrifices self-defense to specialize in long range poke, that's a conscious decision, knowing that I'm taking it to pubqueue without support.

Just like if you take a DWF. It's so damned slow, you know you're going to get left in the cold pretty damned often. It's a condition of the queue, less so a damning indictment of the mech. And frankly, the DWF isn't a great mech anyway imo (but fun).

They are Cancer Mechs and too much of it kills any ability of the team to win in Solo, even terribly played LRM boats have more value in Solo queue even if it merely the psychological effect and area denial the worst played one can deliver. Better then the people who hide at the extreme end of their cERPPC range wasting 100T or 85T Assualts being utterly pointless to the determination of which team wins... DWF is definitely not that amazing.

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

Sounds like you're describing a situation where your group had better players than the enemy. So is it really that surprising you won? If they were at your skill level, it would have been an even match, and whoever executed better would have won.

You're saying basically this:

"The meta mechs and builds which are carefully weeded out by the hundreds of competitive players trying to find the strongest mechs and builds are at a disadvantage compared to non-meta builds."

Please explain to me how this makes any sense.



And remember what I said, brawl meta is fairly equally balanced with PPFLD currently. So yeah, if scrubs are bringing PPFLD, and you're brawl or DPS? You'll beat them. Because you are better. Not because PPFLD is worse.

Simple... there is a VERY different environment you are dealing with between PUG & Comp play. So putting a fresh water fish into the ocean does not mean that fish will thrive... the game is played very different when everyone on the team has High Trust relationships & Good Discipline, as has been mentioned about how there was a time where people were playing two mech combos of Sword and Board style. It is a VERY focused environment that is almost entirely based upon those factors, when you remove this highly specialized mech and put it in different environmental conditions it will usually fail. Just like taking what works best in PUG is not good for Comp... PUG you want good mix of mid-range to brawling weapons.

[Imperius]

If pop-tarting starts to show itself again. Trust me I will set twitter and the forums on fire again to get rid of it.

[Tarogato]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 April 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

Story time.

Back when CNCI was at its peak, we were involved in RHOD. At the time, the meta that was in play was very much like it is today. Mid to long ranged PPFLD. We entered this competitive environment as total unknowns. We proceeded to utterly demolish every competitive team we ran across until we burned out due to being a small comp team who had to fight nonstop. #smallclanproblems

A good part of the reason why that happened was precisely because we were unknowns - people didn't expect us to be as good as we were, so we were never taken seriously until we already did the damage we had to. However, more importantly, another part was because we rejected the tactics that were in play in the competitive environment at the time. I want to stress the word "environment," here, as this is exceedingly important.

We came in, and we rejected the play style that was in vogue among comp teams at the time. Everyone was so focused on coordinated, pinpoint, front loaded medium to long range damage that the thought of a brawl oriented team at the time was absolutely discarded as a bad idea. We decided to flip the situation, force the enemy teams to play by our rules, and brawled the ever living hell out of them. We took something that didn't fit the competitive environment and forced it down their throats, and their well oiled machines could not keep up with the environment we imposed upon them. Eventually, people caught on, and competition got stiffer since our enemies started to become more brawl oriented, as well.

Now that that little backstory is out of the way, you might be asking "what the hell does that have to do with this contradiction I pointed out to ZUUL?"

Everything.

The environment in which the coordinated PPFLD meta exceeds at is when you are with like minded individuals who will coordinate that firepower. Without that coordinated single target nuking, the overall effectiveness of the meta builds are heavily reduced. It is, however, fairly easy to put 11 idiots in front of you, and farm the enemy to the best of your capabilities while your allies are treated as sacrificial pawns. Should the map be a brawling map, however, or an enemy configured for close range combat gets past your allies and onto you, you are at an extremely severe disadvantage. Because public queue is such a madhouse, the environment is unpredictable. Not your allies. Not your enemies. This means any configuration spec'd for a specific tactic will almost never operate at its peak effectiveness and will, in turn, be open to its inherent weaknesses.

This is why a configuration that is designed specifically for a competitive environment might not fair very well in the public environment. They might be easier to use than some builds, but every configuration has a weakness, and the public environment gives ample opportunities for you and your collection of randoms to be jammed into a situation that plays directly against you.

Furthermore, you cannot expect the same degree of coordination in public as you can in competitive drops. Given coordination is the missing piece that lets a comp team maximize their specific tactic of engagement, not having this is a huge wrench in the system that a comp based build is designed to operate within. To make matters worse, your allies might have mechs configured in direct conflict with your own, and operate erratically and in ways you cannot support. One mech against a domino effect of allied mech losses will fall. This is a team game.

I should probably stop replying to this thread because I'm dragging it further and further off course...


A: you might have pioneered brawling in a meta where brawling wasn't considered. These days there is isn't really anything that hasn't been tried competitively. We've seen LB brawling, SRM brawling, SPL brawling, UAC2 dakka, large bore dakka, IS laservomit, clan laservomit, ERLL boating, PPFLD, gaussvomit, there's not really any stones left unturned. Except maybe bracket building, which has shown to be successful in Star League 6v6, but hasn't really showed up much in 8v8 yet.


B: you remark about how weak PPFLD is in brawl situations. But it's not really that weak... it's still incredibly potent. That's one of the reasons it's the meta right now... you can actually somewhat brawl with gaussPPC right now.


C: PPFLD doesn't require teamwork to be good. You don't need coordination. No matter how you look at it, 35 to 50 pinpoint alphas, delivered at high velocity with short exposure (highmounts, and poptarts) is very strong. Actually, it's exactly what you want for a public environment. Expose yourself to fewer enemies, for shorter amounts of time, at longer distances, dealing pinpoint meaningful damage, and having enough DPS to kill anything that thinks it can sneak around the back and surprise you. It's a stronnnnnggg meta right now. Unlike brawling which requires your team to create Brawlportunies™, you can be very independent with PPFLD, which is great for solo queue. Also, we have a LOT more people and teams playing comp now than we ever have. If anybody found something that beat PPFLD, be it in competitive 8v8 or just solo queue, we'd be seeing it and talking about it. But everybody is still talking about PPFLD from what I can tell, this thread aside. And it will probably stay that way, until PGI introduces changes.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 29 April 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

They are Cancer Mechs and too much of it kills any ability of the team to win in Solo,.

Guess we can disagree on your opinion on this. Plenty of people in solo queue have no problem using the strengths of your alleged cancer mechs against all sorts of opponent. They certainly arent any less viable in solo queue then your LRM examples. Having PPC/GR doesnt require playing from 1k away any more than running LRMs does.

I,tbink you are confusing the selfish or unskilled play of some people (both of which arent uncommon in solo queue) with meta mechs being somehow untenable.

Comp sees PPfLD, dakka, brawl and laser vomit these days. ALL of those translate just fine in solo queue. Maybe you just notice more often when comp builds fail to carry more often because its become somewhat normalized for people to just accept that LRM heavy teams or frankenmech builds might do poorly in solo queue.

[Pariah Devalis]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

Quote

The problem is that the PPFLD builds either have low DPS or low heat endurance. Take the old TBR 2xERPPC 1x Gauss builds. Hell, go farther back to the old CTF poptart days, even! They didn't have the heat sinks to keep pumping fire constantly. They only worked because they could poptart, hide behind cover, and cool off. Not nearly a concern for the 2x Gauss 1x ERPPC NTG, but the NTG has an extremely low DPS rate, and arms that can explode easily enough.

When faced with virtually any build other than PPFLD based build, with nowhere to hide, nowhere to cool down, and no additional support, one on one the PPFLD mech is going to be at a serious disadvantage unless the pilot is capable of putting that 35 damage onto the cockpit of a far more aggressively moving hostile, while also trying to spread damage for long as possible. For how effective 35 damage is when placed correctly and precisely (and it absolutely can be devastating), a mech dealing twice that in half the time needs to be a lot less precise to win, and combine a good pilot with both the DPS and raw firepower advantage a closer ranged mech would have, and that low DPS, extreme precision mech is basically screwed.

I'm not saying there is no place for it. I am not even saying it isn't effective in public queue. It's certainly better than the kitchen sink builds one can come across. However, I would hesitate to say a PPFLD mech is superior to many other kinds of builds when faced with the environment that is public, or even group, queue. Hell, I'd even say some of the "bad" builds could stand a chance.

It's why I was laughing when elitists were saying things like "the HMN was terrible next to the the HBK-IIC." The degree of benefit one mech might have over another in a public, non-competitive environment, is very often completely inconsequential. Usually, they are virtually indistinguishable given the public queue environment. What might, might give a comp player a 5% advantage over another comp player of perfectly equal skill and equal terrain advantage in a comp environment is worth absolutely bupkis in public, due to the environment they find themselves operating within.

Of course there are bad robots. Some are just ... bad.... There is almost no saving them. However, that's a rant for another time.

[Bishop Steiner]

Imperius, on 29 April 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

If pop-tarting starts to show itself again. Trust me I will set twitter and the forums on fire again to get rid of it.

um.... it has. Not like it was, thank god, but there is a fair amount, at least if you run into higher tiers... if it's a Gyr, it's probably a tart. Ditto most HBK/IICAs, etc.

Thankfully not as global (or easy), across the board like it used to be, but it's "back"-ish

[Alex Morgaine]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

Because obviously, there are mechs that are scrub bad, and educating folks not to drive them, can only help the overall play level. But too often, we simply are told "NO! Comp Way or NO WAY!".

And that's not really helping, either.

I will play just my gauss urbie tonight... Assuming i get time to get on. can't get more.hard mode then that