223 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

I should probably stop replying to this thread because I'm dragging it further and further off course...


A: you might have pioneered brawling in a meta where brawling wasn't considered. These days there is isn't really anything that hasn't been tried competitively. We've seen LB brawling, SRM brawling, SPL brawling, UAC2 dakka, large bore dakka, IS laservomit, clan laservomit, ERLL boating, PPFLD, gaussvomit, there's not really any stones left unturned. Except maybe bracket building, which has shown to be successful in Star League 6v6, but hasn't really showed up much in 8v8 yet.

I don't think he is claiming they pioneered Comp Brawling, but noted (and he can correct me if I am wrong) that the Comp Scene can occasionally believe their own hype, and get complacent, and as such, jsut having someone come in with skill and agression and NOT playing the same tune, caught people with thei rpant's down.

I mean we had Brawl before we had the Gaussapult or Quad/HexPPC metas, too, let alone Poptarting. It wasn't "new". It's simply that no one was doing it, and conventional wisdom at that point in time, was that it couldn't work.

And let's be honest, sometimes the Comp Teams are not the first to see an opening in the curve, and there can even be some initial resistance to it. I've seen people run build or tactics and promote them on the forums for a couple months, and be told by the comp players they don't know what they are talking about...and then suddenly...the Comp Scene is doing EXACTLY that. (an old example being Robin Sage and I running 2xAC5/2xPPC sword and board DragonSlayers for months, being told VTRs were bad mechs period, and the DS in particular. BY THE COMP CROWD. And then suddenly.... it's all anybody ran. Yes the AC20/10 vel nerfs fed into that, but the build actually worked really well before that, too, and had the benefit of DPS as needed, a benefit largely)

Hell it was the very fact everyone else was doing it that drove me and Robin out from using them. :/

[Imperius]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

um.... it has. Not like it was, thank god, but there is a fair amount, at least if you run into higher tiers... if it's a Gyr, it's probably a tart. Ditto most HBK/IICAs, etc.

Thankfully not as global (or easy), across the board like it used to be, but it's "back"-ish

Keep in mind I haven't seen it yet because I haven't been playing. Thanks for the update though! I really hope I don't have to go on any more crusades haha.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alex Morgaine, on 29 April 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

I will play just my gauss urbie tonight... Assuming i get time to get on. can't get more.hard mode then that

dual AC2 Urbie.... crappy DPS, Crappy PPFLD! Pretty much sucks at everything!

[nitra]

This might make the Anni a useable mech i am all for it !! ill buy 2 !!

Dogstar, on 29 April 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

Wait I did a photoshop of it, check out this Meta-Annihilator:



and even more glorious the Ultra-Meta-Annihilator!



Can I has job pleese?

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

I don't think he is claiming they pioneered Comp Brawling, but noted (and he can correct me if I am wrong) that the Comp Scene can occasionally believe their own hype, and get complacent, and as such, jsut having someone come in with skill and agression and NOT playing the same tune, caught people with thei rpant's down.

I wouldn't say we pioneered brawl in comp. Brawl was a thing before. However, interestingly, at the time we did this? EVERY COMPETITIVE PLAYER AND ALL THE PARROTS THAT MIMICKED THEM AT THE TIME were bitching about how brawling was dead. How it was terrible. How the long ranged game was screwing everything up. How brawling was absolutely impossible to pull off.

Given my own observations, I knew that was a steaming pile of B.S. I didn't care if every competitive player and every Joe Schmo was on board the group think train. They were wrong.

But here's the kicker: if they confined their game play style to what they did, and never thought to branch out into other styles of fighting, they would have created a self-fulfilling situation. This was because they enforced, through a shared group think based on a false perspective of reality, a specific environment. Everything they did, they did in that environment. Bringing brawl mechs to RHOD changed the environment. That's the important thing. That their tactics, their meta mechs, everything? Fell apart, or became a lot less effective, when faced with a brand new environment. Something they were not designed to control.

Public queue's environment is, by its nature, something you cannot control. That means things designed for a specific environment won't ever function like they should, there.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 29 April 2017 - 05:07 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Lukoi Banacek, on 29 April 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

Guess we can disagree on your opinion on this. Plenty of people in solo queue have no problem using the strengths of your alleged cancer mechs against all sorts of opponent. They certainly arent any less viable in solo queue then your LRM examples. Having PPC/GR doesnt require playing from 1k away any more than running LRMs does.

I,tbink you are confusing the selfish or unskilled play of some people (both of which arent uncommon in solo queue) with meta mechs being somehow untenable.

Comp sees PPfLD, dakka, brawl and laser vomit these days. ALL of those translate just fine in solo queue. Maybe you just notice more often when comp builds fail to carry more often because its become somewhat normalized for people to just accept that LRM heavy teams or frankenmech builds might do poorly in solo queue.

There are even a few who ARE good with it but they are the exception not the Rule and still require the Team to Carry them to Victory... cause they fundamentally lack very important abilities in Build & Playstyle, the ability to push a point or hold a point in a Heavy or Assualt. Maybe you think that the MWOWC was the height of ability (hell it could truly be) but I stopped watching it cause it was boring and lame... I am a Battletech player first and foremost, so Movement & Positioning is what I find exciting. Playing Chess where the pieces shoot at each other... the Champions getting a few piece lead cause the other team did the worst opening move possible in the ENTIRE GAME across all Maps & Modes (FUC KING TWICE), then camping in a static position to focus fire as the others wandered unorganized. It was atrocious and anti-thetical to everything I love about the game... to the point I am confused at why a person would even play it, there are better games that offer that kind of experience of Pixel Perfect Convergence.

[Lukoi Banacek]

There are more than a few and they are all over solo queue. Good players are good players, period. Position play. Speed and aggression are hallmarks of being successful at this game and the comp scene to a very,large degree. So again, you have no proof that meta mechs are some cancerous in the solo queue, there is no logical reason to expect them to be so, so we will have to disagree that they are indeed detrimental to teams in the solo queue.

Frankly, I cannot think of a single current era mech Ive seen used in Div A B or C of MRBC this season that,isnt regularly used to good effect in solo queue.

Solid, effective mechs played by selfish or poorly skilled (or the too drunk, or folks just going through the motions) are only going to be as good as that effort. But **** mech builds,typically take extra effort to run with good results.

[Tarogato]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

I don't think he is claiming they pioneered Comp Brawling, but noted (and he can correct me if I am wrong) that the Comp Scene can occasionally believe their own hype, and get complacent, and as such, jsut having someone come in with skill and agression and NOT playing the same tune, caught people with thei rpant's down.

I mean we had Brawl before we had the Gaussapult or Quad/HexPPC metas, too, let alone Poptarting. It wasn't "new". It's simply that no one was doing it, and conventional wisdom at that point in time, was that it couldn't work.

And I'm saying that these days these things (new ideas) are being explored with much more regularity. I actually saw laservomit in an MRBC recently. Nobody uses laservomit anymore, how would anybody know how it stands up against PPFLD? Well, we destroyed them, no contest, 8-0. I actually saw LRMs on Polar in high level match recently (was it Starleague? Or MRBC EU Div A? Can't remember) and the LRMs lost. In WC we saw some EU teams go full 110% dakka on Tourmaline. Didn't work out so well for them.

A long time ago, the comp scene was smaller and a tighter crowd. So yeah, a lot more likely that new ideas could sneak through and upset the meta because nobody thought to *actually try* them in the contemporary environment. I don't think that's the case anymore. We have a lot more variety today, balance is quite close, and everybody's always trying everything and challenging the meta. If there was something stronger than PPFLD (other than brawl/dakkabrawl), I strongly feel it would have been discovered and propagated by now.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

For me it's simple.... I look to my averages. If I do significantly better or worse, it's me, not the machine.

I am curious though, you are right, 1v1 vs group vs group is certainly a part of this, and even some "not wanting to let the team down". That I get. But even with Solaris 1v1, I don't really see any trend or inclination for people to embrace the challenge of subpar robots, etc. (of course, maybe it's also impacted by the premium time, inability to spectate, etc).

And it makes me wonder.... I remember after Street Fighter and even Mortal Kombat...we got games like Killer Instinct...where the "combos" weren't really manual combinations of attacks you did, but preset button patterns you performed to get you 80-100 hit combos. And if IIRC, even Marvel vs Capcom, and Super Smash Brothers, etc all follow this pattern? Where it became about memorizing (and knowing when to unleash) a pattern than the actual skill of manually building (and modifying on the cly) combos like the old SF titles.

It was also during this time that I started to notice the shift from challenging oneself to using the best of the best, all the time. :/



Yeah... kind of what I was trying to say...but in a less rambly, more concise package. Aces, that.

Except there's a lot of brawling in comp right now. There's a few players who still stick to long/mid range but brawling is a big part. Light drops are over in 3 minutes, heavy maybe 7.

Focus fire is what you're talking about. Doesn't need PPFLD - KCom does it with brawling all day every day. Sometime when Pat is feeling feisty we'll take 270m brawling decks to Polar Skirmish and do Death Star style trench runs to close and still face-roll people.

Meta really isn't cut and dry anymore. It's largely just "what works best in a given scenario". Hence why the variety in the decks in MRBC this season.

Anything I've seen in MRBC wound be good in pug queue. PPFLD works just fine too - if you're a good shot. If not, then no. Lasers are probably a better choice. SRM Griffin brawler are good, SPL nova, 4xuac2 HBK IIC.

Good mechs are good mechs. There is a tiny handful of super-specialized mechs like 6x erll BLR 2C but they're still better than most pig builds.

Edit -

whoops. On phone, meant to quote Pariah Devil. My bad.

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

dual AC2 Urbie.... crappy DPS, Crappy PPFLD! Pretty much sucks at everything!

Shakes the moneymaker and inspires hate.

What else does an Urbie need?

Edited by MischiefSC, 29 April 2017 - 05:21 PM.

[Tarogato]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 April 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

Public queue's environment is, by its nature, something you cannot control. That means things designed for a specific environment won't ever function like they should, there.

But what if I told you that PPFLD builds were designed for the specific environment of public queue?

Because they are. Not necessarily intentionally. But everything about them screams to me "ideal for the scenarios presented in public queue".

Like I said before, 35-50 pinpoint alphas, with low exposure, high velocity, and decent DPS. What is better than that for the public environment? Laservomit has higher alpha, but worse DPS, less range, more exposure. Dakka has less range, more exposure, but more DPS. Anything brawl has best DPS, but because it requires maximum exposure and has no range, it's relatively dependent upon teamwork.

You're like... saying that PPFLD is not the ideal loadout philosphy for public (solo and group) queue, but you aren't saying what beats it. I don't think anything beats it. Clan laservomit comes close, but it's more susceptible to hot maps and not as good at dealing with spontaneous close quarters engagements. PPFLD presently handles that much better.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 29 April 2017 - 05:23 PM, said:

Except there's a lot of brawling in comp right now. There's a few players who still stick to long/mid range but brawling is a big part. Light drops are over in 3 minutes, heavy maybe 7.

Focus fire is what you're talking about. Doesn't need PPFLD - KCom does it with brawling all day every day. Sometime when Pat is feeling feisty we'll take 270m brawling decks to Polar Skirmish and do Death Star style trench runs to close and still face-roll people.

Meta really isn't cut and dry anymore. It's largely just "what works best in a given scenario". Hence why the variety in the decks in MRBC this season.

Anything I've seen in MRBC wound be good in pug queue. PPFLD works just fine too - if you're a good shot. If not, then no. Lasers are probably a better choice. SRM Griffin brawler are good, SPL nova, 4xuac2 HBK IIC.

Good mechs are good mechs. There is a tiny handful of super-specialized mechs like 6x erll BLR 2C but they're still better than most pig builds.

Edit -

whoops. On phone, meant to quote Pariah Devil. My bad.



Shakes the moneymaker and inspires hate.

What else does an Urbie need?

your Phone-Fu needs work, Grasshopper...... wait...are Grasshoppers still meta?

[Pariah Devalis]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

But what if I told you that PPFLD builds were designed for the specific environment of public queue?

I would not call them ideal for public queue, unless you are absolutely ok with using your 11 other teammates as cannon fodder. Though they are OK for GROUP queue and fairly reliable otherwise. Flipside, you rely on your 11 other teammates to do a good enough job to give you the openings you need to exploit. If they crumple like wet tissue paper, or if they cannot stop someone from penetrating the line and getting to you, you won't get the opportunity to do much of anything.

Further, I have explained what beats it. Several times, now, actually. Close range oriented builds beat mid to long range PPFLD builds. Period. AC20 and SRMs, or SRM SPLas, or full on Splat, or pure ERSLas spam... It will cut a PPFLD based gauss/peep mech to pieces, bar a lucky headcap. Public queue forces you to deal with brawlers on occasion, and your team cannot be relied upon to protect you in this environment. You don't have the coordination for it. All you can do is try to stay as far from the front lines as possible, minimizing personal risk at the expense of your allies in the hopes you can exploit the work your allies have done.

The game is a lot like rock-paper-scissors. Poptart beats open field DPS/LasVom. Brawl beats Poptart. DPS Dakka or Mid/Long range LazVom builds only really beat out people who wander into the open like cattle. *shrug*

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 29 April 2017 - 05:46 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

But what if I told you that PPFLD builds were designed for the specific environment of public queue?

Because they are. Not necessarily intentionally. But everything about them screams to me "ideal for the scenarios presented in public queue".

They are strong, though I don't know if I still call them all purpose ideal. Fortunately in public queue, I don't think anything truly qualifies. But even with a good shotcaller, one is better off getting up in the grill one a Night Gyr poptart than to give him the space and time to play the poptart game. And if you come across say a PPFLD KDK3, they are more vulnerable (though still dang good) to overwhelm tactics than the DakkaBear is, especially against decent shielding brawlers.

But not denying the gap is smaller than it has been ATM. Though if the QQ over the skill tree and Quirk nerf is to be believed, that gap might just be widening again. And just mechanics are currently closer to on par, doesn't actually mean the heart of the mentality has changed. Maybe it has, but still see way too much "One Truth" posting around here to fully buy in.

[Alex Morgaine]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

dual AC2 Urbie.... crappy DPS, Crappy PPFLD! Pretty much sucks at everything!

No gauss charge :3

[Bishop Steiner]

Alex Morgaine, on 29 April 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

No gauss charge :3

shame Hvy Gauss won't be doable.

[Tarogato]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 April 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

Further, I have explained what beats it. Several times, now, actually. Close range oriented builds beat mid to long range PPFLD builds. Period. AC20 and SRMs, or SRM SPLas, or full on Splat, or pure ERSLas spam... It will cut a PPFLD based gauss/peep mech to pieces, bar a lucky headcap. Public queue forces you to deal with brawlers on occasion, and your team cannot be relied upon to protect you in this environment. You don't have the coordination for it.

Ah, there's the crux of the matter. I couldn't disagree more.

In my opinion, brawl is rather weak for public queue. It's somewhat workable when you have four brawlers working together on comms, and somewhere around seven or more organised players it certainly approaches being overpowered. But if you have fewer than four coordinated players, I feel it is very weak. And certainly very weak (frustratingly so) in solo queue.

Brawling absolutely requires coordination. You need to get in close range to brawl. Solo queue and the vast majority of group queue is dominated by mid-long ranged trading. Rushing by yourself is suicide. Even if you take a mech down in the process, it's still suicide. You absolutely depend on your team to create a target-rich environment for your enemy so that you can get in range to leverage your DPS. Sometimes in solo queue this literally never happens for the entire match. We've all been through solo queue matches that are 100% trade from beginning to end - absolutely no opportunities to brawl, you just die trying. And if nobody follows you in? Then the effort (and your mech) is wasted. So I gave up on playing brawl loadouts in solo queue. Only my lights can pull it off, because they actually have the speed to get into and out of close range without dying in the process.

[Alex Morgaine]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

shame Hvy Gauss won't be doable.

Darn... Heavy ppc then.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Ah, there's the crux of the matter. I couldn't disagree more.

In my opinion, brawl is rather weak for public queue. It's somewhat workable when you have four brawlers working together on comms, and somewhere around seven or more organised players it certainly approaches being overpowered. But if you have fewer than four coordinated players, I feel it is very weak. And certainly very weak (frustratingly so) in solo queue.

Brawling absolutely requires coordination. You need to get in close range to brawl. Solo queue and the vast majority of group queue is dominated by mid-long ranged trading. Rushing by yourself is suicide. Even if you take a mech down in the process, it's still suicide. You absolutely depend on your team to create a target-rich environment for your enemy so that you can get in range to leverage your DPS. Sometimes in solo queue this literally never happens for the entire match. We've all been through solo queue matches that are 100% trade from beginning to end - absolutely no opportunities to brawl, you just die trying. And if nobody follows you in? Then the effort (and your mech) is wasted. So I gave up on playing brawl loadouts in solo queue. Only my lights can pull it off, because they actually have the speed to get into and out of close range without dying in the process.

Brawl can be weak. You get caught mid to long range, it's got issues. Especially since PUGs usually won't man up and push.
Conversely in maps that favor short range, the PPFLD guys are not as strong.

I think where I disagree with you both to some extent is I am pretty content to say where the coordination and tactics of Group?Comp Play provide absolutes, there are NO absolutes in Public Play. No one "perfect answer", but all have weaknesses than can be exploited (which I like, being an agent of Chaos).

That said PPFLD is pretty overall strong... but fast brawl builds can usually exploit it, if run smart. I actually did this with a relatively big name big unit guy I won't name and shame (also because I do feel he is a better pilot than I am, but the situation allowed me to exploit his build), on Grim Potluck. He was in the infamous Dual Gauss/Peep KDK.

Me? My Lowly ASN-23 SRM bomber.

My team was doing the usual cower and peek garbage, and I got bored, so went off hunting... figuring even if I zigged when I should have zagged...it would just mean I could drop in a fresh match with hopefully a less useless team. (we've all been there)

Anyhow, thanks to terrain, and being a sneaky *******, I got in where I could get the drop on the guy. Being your usual Competitive Type he had Charmin TP for back armor, and I but some serious fear into him first volley. He tried to track me, but between speed agility and JJs never was able to do much (did blow both my arms off, but well, that's what they are there for) and had a second of hesitation when he realized that I had drawn him into a position where his tuning to deal with me left his now open back exposed to my team... which while too gutless to advance weren't so dumb as to say no to a naked bummed KDK in their sights.....

That hesitation allowed me to blow out his GR, and from there, he was toast.

Dunno if he ever called for help from his teammates, but he go none... which is the biggest difference between Comp Group Play and PUGLyf..... you can't rely on anyone to have your back.

So am I saying Fast Brawl beats PPFLD in Pug play?

NO.

I'm saying the difference is there is no single ONE PURE TRUTH in PUG play, because of all the differences, from tactics to ability to rely on teammates. (It's also why my Solo Play mechs also have more rear armor than my CGBI team play mechs. Because no one is watching my back but me, and I can't see everything)

Alex Morgaine, on 29 April 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

Darn... Heavy ppc then.

tHAT IS ON THE AGENDA AS WELL AS Double Snub Nose.

[The6thMessenger]

PhantomDust, on 28 April 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

Hey FupDup!

Thanks for the comment, really appreciate your input. All weapons are going to be the same size in there respective weight classes for all mechs.

I will see if we can flip those gauss guns around to fit closer to the concept (no promises here). but we cannot make the weapons themselves bigger, the only thing we can do to make it appear bigger is making bigger weapon holders.

Cheers!

Arman

Now we're at it, can you make it so that the Ultra AC10 and Ultra AC20s would be Over-Under than side by side on arm mounts? Cause they look ugly as hell when put at something like an Urbanmech.

[Pariah Devalis]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Ah, there's the crux of the matter. I couldn't disagree more.

In my opinion, brawl is rather weak for public queue. It's somewhat workable when you have four brawlers working together on comms, and somewhere around seven or more organised players it certainly approaches being overpowered. But if you have fewer than four coordinated players, I feel it is very weak. And certainly very weak (frustratingly so) in solo queue.

Brawling absolutely requires coordination. You need to get in close range to brawl. Solo queue and the vast majority of group queue is dominated by mid-long ranged trading. Rushing by yourself is suicide. Even if you take a mech down in the process, it's still suicide. You absolutely depend on your team to create a target-rich environment for your enemy so that you can get in range to leverage your DPS. Sometimes in solo queue this literally never happens for the entire match. We've all been through solo queue matches that are 100% trade from beginning to end - absolutely no opportunities to brawl, you just die trying. And if nobody follows you in? Then the effort (and your mech) is wasted. So I gave up on playing brawl loadouts in solo queue. Only my lights can pull it off, because they actually have the speed to get into and out of close range without dying in the process.

At the core, you actually make my point. Brawl builds and PPFLD builds are two sides of the same coin. They are thoroughbreds. In competitive drops, with teams oriented around them, they are extremely powerful. However, in public queue they both rely on exploiting your teammates in the worst possible ways. As such, I would never call either brawling builds or PPFLD builds "ideal" for public drops.

Which directly ties into what I said earlier: a mech designed for the competitive environment will not function nearly as well in the public environment. It means the difference between "absolute best" and "viable" is a lot wider a margin than what a strictly competitive player might realize.