60 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

All I see on the forums is complaining about cbill refunds (me included). I agree that PGI messed up with the refunds, shafting people with many modules. I myself am getting around 42000 GSP which will see no use till the end of this game.

The other more important issue however is the recurring XP cost for customization which can kill off playing with mechs and trying different builds.

With the way the skill tree branches are set up, a simple change in weapons costs huge amount of XP (upwards of 8K) every single time you need to try something. This is pretty much a big no to customization, even ignoring the fact that you can not save a certain tree unlock to switch to and from.
Its most punishing for more versatile mechs that can load up on a wide range of builds (e.g. Timber, marauder, etc...)


Its also a counter-intuitive concept. Because when a mech build works well, you are likely to keep the build which leads to having a huge stack of XP that you are not using. On the other hand, on mechs that you are experimenting with, this constant XP cost is going to hurt alot, dragging you across painful grinding, just to be able to try something.
The argument that you also needed to grind modules as well is also irrelevant, since you could use you already purchased modules on any mechs you wanted, completely free.


I think they could have increased the XP cost of unlocking nodes and at the same time made re-equipping an already unlocked node, free.


The thing that hurts the most is that PGI is well aware of what they are doing with punishing the player and rubbing it in the face act.
Its pretty evident by how many times them mention Free, Free, Free for un-equipping a node, Which is hilarious since there is nor case when a player just un-equips a node just for the hell of it.

You un-equip nodes to re-equip something else. So pls PGI, stop it!

Edited by Navid A1, 30 April 2017 - 10:52 PM.

[Pr8Dator2]

This is pretty much the whole point of the skill tree... to dramatically increase the meaningful playing life of each mech.

[naterist]

meaning in playing a mech doesnt mean grinding for xp to get the funds to go nuts for a bit. the meaningfullness is in the reworking it to make it crazy when its called for and serious when it isnt.

and if grinding xp and cbills is needed to enjoy the mech then i think making you do a first time purchase of the over 200 nodes is enough of a grind per mech. i dont care about the machanics, it feels fine and can be tweaked as needed, but the respec is gonna kill this game as it punishes experimenting, which is were most of the fun comes from.

[Khobai]

youre still complaining about the wrong issue though.

the real issue is that the skill tree is awful and not even an improvement over the module system.

this new skill tree shouldnt be implemented solely on the basis that its completely terrible. it doesnt give any real choices to players. it walls good skills behind bad skills which forces you to play a skillmaze minigame to avoid taking as many bad skills a possible. it gives us six, I repeat SIX, different types of xp when there should only be ONE type of xp.

Quote

This is pretty much the whole point of the skill tree... to dramatically increase the meaningful playing life of each mech.

except taking quirks away from mechs and making all mechs more similar by sharing the same generic skill tree doesnt dramatically increase the playing life of each mech. if anything it squashes it.

if you want to dramatically increase the meaningful playing life of mechs you need to diversify mechs more so each mech is a different playing experience. That encourages people to buy and play a wider variety of mechs because each one is different.

PGI obviously understood that at some point in time because they were going to have unique skill trees for every variant of mech. But then they backtracked on that, probably because it was so much work, and didnt let them focus on their misguided esports attempt.

If the skill system is good, I honestly dont care if PGI charges me XP to change skills, thats really not at the forefront of whats wrong with this current disaster of a skill tree.

Edited by Khobai, 30 April 2017 - 11:26 PM.

[Pr8Dator2]

Khobai, on 30 April 2017 - 11:19 PM, said:

except taking quirks away from mechs and making all mechs more similar by sharing the same generic skill tree doesnt dramatically increase the playing life of each mech. if anything it squashes it.

if you want to dramatically increase the meaningful playing life of mechs you need to diversify them so each mech is a different playing experience.

thats not the skill tree per se... its just adjustments that are coming with the skill tree which may or may not happen and is another issue on its own. i only play Clan so I am not sure whats going on in the IS side but I do see my quirks still there in the PTS test. Specifically the quirks in the omnipods are all still there. So I am still getting +5% acc/deacc by slapping on Warhawk A legs on, ERPPC quirks by slapping Warhawk Prime arms on, etc.

Edited by Pr8Dator2, 30 April 2017 - 11:25 PM.

[Davegt27]

Navid A1, on 30 April 2017 - 10:51 PM, said:

All I see on the forums is complaining about cbill refunds (me included). I agree that PGI messed up with the refunds, shafting people with many modules. I myself am getting around 42000 GSP which will see no use till the end of this game.

The other more important issue however is the recurring XP cost for customization which can kill off playing with mechs and trying different builds.

With the way the skill tree branches are set up, a simple change in weapons costs huge amount of XP (upwards of 8K) every single time you need to try something. This is pretty much a big no to customization, even ignoring the fact that you can not save a certain tree unlock to switch to and from.
Its most punishing for more versatile mechs that can load up on a wide range of builds (e.g. Timber, marauder, etc...)


Its also a counter-intuitive concept. Because when a mech build works well, you are likely to keep the build which leads to having a huge stack of XP that you are not using. On the other hand, on mechs that you are experimenting with, this constant XP cost is going to hurt alot, dragging you across painful grinding, just to be able to try something.
The argument that you also needed to grind modules as well is also irrelevant, since you could use you already purchased modules on any mechs you wanted, completely free.


I think they could have increased the XP cost of unlocking nodes and at the same time made re-equipping an already unlocked node, free.


The thing that hurts the most is that PGI is well aware of what they are doing with punishing the player and rubbing it in the face act.
Its pretty evident by how many times them mention Free, Free, Free for un-equipping a node, Which is hilarious since there is nor case when a player just un-equips a node just for the hell of it.

You un-equip nodes to re-equip something else. So pls PGI, stop it!

You hit the nail on the head
I spend a ton of time experimenting and I have a mountain of modules to help
Me out

Or I had a mountain of modules

[Khobai]

Quote

i only play Clan so I am not sure whats going on in the IS side but I do see my quirks still there in the PTS test.

The problem is on the IS side, thats where the majority of quirks are being removed from.

[Pr8Dator2]

Davegt27, on 30 April 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

You hit the nail on the head
I spend a ton of time experimenting and I have a mountain of modules to help
Me out

Or I had a mountain of modules

This is probably my own concern with the skill tree... making things too fixed and therefore discourages experimentation... I guess I need to start a new account just to play around with stuffs.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Khobai, on 30 April 2017 - 11:19 PM, said:

youre still complaining about the wrong issue though.

the real issue is that the skill tree is awful and not even an improvement over the module system.

this new skill tree shouldnt be implemented solely on the basis that its completely terrible. it doesnt give any real choices to players. it walls good skills behind bad skills which forces you to play a skillmaze minigame to avoid taking as many bad skills a possible. it gives us six, I repeat SIX, different types of xp when there should only be ONE type of xp.



except taking quirks away from mechs and making all mechs more similar by sharing the same generic skill tree doesnt dramatically increase the playing life of each mech. if anything it squashes it.

if you want to dramatically increase the meaningful playing life of mechs you need to diversify mechs more so each mech is a different playing experience. That encourages people to buy and play a wider variety of mechs because each one is different.

PGI obviously understood that at some point in time because they were going to have unique skill trees for every variant of mech. But then they backtracked on that, probably because it was so much work, and didnt let them focus on their misguided esports attempt.

If the skill system is good, I honestly dont care if PGI charges me XP to change skills, thats really not at the forefront of whats wrong with this current disaster of a skill tree.

EVERYTHING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!

The whining about Refunds & Respec Costs are quite literally the least important thing in this dumpster fire!!!!! I was mad about the "cost" and had one of the first threads on here after the announcement video was put up and I worked out the cost is was going to take in XP & Cbills... then the first PTS came out and realized what a godawful destruction of the game it was!!!!! I have been at that since the very start of being able to use it and run numbers... it makes the best mechs in the game even better than they are while decimating the decent ones and nuking the bad ones from orbit. That is a systemic failure at every possible way to look at it..... Buff KDK-3 while Nerf Dragon???? Makes sense to PGI and a whole lot of PGI apologists and/or those who are clamoring for change for the sake of change... no one with a functional brain is happy about it though

[Pr8Dator2]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 April 2017 - 11:36 PM, said:

EVERYTHING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!

The whining about Refunds & Respec Costs are quite literally the least important thing in this dumpster fire!!!!! I was mad about the "cost" and had one of the first threads on here after the announcement video was put up and I worked out the cost is was going to take in XP & Cbills... then the first PTS came out and realized what a godawful destruction of the game it was!!!!! I have been at that since the very start of being able to use it and run numbers... it makes the best mechs in the game even better than they are while decimating the decent ones and nuking the bad ones from orbit. That is a systemic failure at every possible way to look at it..... Buff KDK-3 while Nerf Dragon???? Makes sense to PGI and a whole lot of PGI apologists and/or those who are clamoring for change for the sake of change... no one with a functional brain is happy about it though

So, all these QQ over the dragon huh? Seems to be the only name I keep seeing in this pew pew so far... I don't see that many people playing the dragon now either so whats the problem? Name me mechs that people are actually using now that is going to be hit by this please.

If you think IS is going to be hit by this, watch this video and tell me IS isn't getting HORRIFYING with this skill tree...

Edited by Pr8Dator2, 30 April 2017 - 11:57 PM.

[BoldricKent]

You know that video you add isnt from current PTS, but from first one...which would point to intent of disinformation.
Quirks ware introduced to try keeping level field in power creep, and most of older/first mech are compered to newer
in weapon point location/number underdogs, there is also really big difference in performance of JJ (which got nerfed ,
but new chassis didnt inherent that ). Dragon as being one of oldest designs is just a banner barer.
And dont forget all mech get same structure/agility tree as all the others, since skill trees are generic ..... so, Kodiak will have same buffs as an Atlas, but superior geometry, weapon payload and speed. And gap that was keep somehow in control just starts spread all over again.
I had hoped that skill trees would be actually chassis specific(ballistic and energy wouldnt have missiles skills ) , so mech could be enhanced for primary purpose (lights with better info tree, assaults with better structure tree..etc), that would make
a difference in all variants of same chassis, not the expected exodus of lesser variants due to dropping 3 variant requirement.

[Jay Leon Hart]

The actual skill tree aside (as that's a whole other kettle of fish), I just want them to remove the C-Bill cost for skills nodes. I can't think of any good game I've played in the last 20-odd years that made you pay for skills (unless they were cumulative and there was no choice involved). Then we can get rid of HSP/GSP as currency, since you only need XP. Then we can go back to a C-bill refund for modules, because C-Bill and/or module poor players don't have a massive grind just to get back what they already had.

Pr8Dator2, on 30 April 2017 - 11:45 PM, said:

If you think IS is going to be hit by this, watch this video and tell me IS isn't getting HORRIFYING with this skill tree...

Spoiler

IS isn't getting horrifying with this skill tree. My MAD-IICs are getting ridiculous, however, so that makes me happy.

[Dogstar]

Pr8Dator2, on 30 April 2017 - 11:45 PM, said:

So, all these QQ over the dragon huh? Seems to be the only name I keep seeing in this pew pew so far... I don't see that many people playing the dragon now either so whats the problem? Name me mechs that people are actually using now that is going to be hit by this please.

If you think IS is going to be hit by this, watch this video and tell me IS isn't getting HORRIFYING with this skill tree...

Congratulations! You win a prize for shedding the most crocodile tears!



Just a small one though,

Edited by Dogstar, 01 May 2017 - 01:50 AM.

[Nesutizale]

Extra costs to reskill will be the reason why I will wait with skilling a mech till I found a loadout that I like. Then stick with it.
It realy sucks out the fun of experimentation....

[Ted Wayz]

This point has been brought up since the skill tree was brought up. But I do not think PGI is laughing. If PGI thinks the skill tree will replace the income lost from removing the three mech rule pretty sure they are in for a big surprise.

PGI has no idea on how this community plays and are betting their future that they do. Just PGI being PGI.

[SmokedJag]

If people wanted to post more feedback on the merits of the skill tree, perhaps they shouldn't stuff up that forum with nothing but compensation whining, "NO NERF" and HELL NO BOYCOTT sh1tposts?

[oldradagast]

Pr8Dator2, on 30 April 2017 - 10:54 PM, said:

This is pretty much the whole point of the skill tree... to dramatically increase the meaningful playing life of each mech.

No, the point is to increase the grind. Or, am I the only one here who actually continues to play a mech after fully leveling it?

Unreal how people will twist things around to make bad into good.

No, increasing the grind doesn't "increase the playing life of the mech."

No, having a respec cost isn't good because "it gives me something to do with my extra cbills and XP."

No, the skill maze is not a good idea, but we're going to be stuck with it anyway.

SmokedJag, on 01 May 2017 - 02:53 AM, said:

If people wanted to post more feedback on the merits of the skill tree, perhaps they shouldn't stuff up that forum with nothing but compensation whining, "NO NERF" and HELL NO BOYCOTT sh1tposts?

The forums are full of posts about all the flaws with the skill maze that go way beyond refund issues; don't pretend otherwise.

PGI doesn't care, but at least be honest about what people are posting.

[Alan Davion]

Nesutizale, on 01 May 2017 - 02:27 AM, said:

It realy sucks out the fun of experimentation....

Not according to Russ. The difference is he just wants you to experiment with different builds by buying 2-3 duplicates of the same mech.

[SmokedJag]

oldradagast, on 01 May 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

The forums are full of posts about all the flaws with the skill maze that go way beyond refund issues; don't pretend otherwise.

PGI doesn't care, but at least be honest about what people are posting.

Good luck pulling coherent feedback out of that swamp though. PGI *has* listened to focused feedback on things like the original cost system, progression compensation and gating. That they aren't changing what you want them to change doesn't mean it's futile and one should resort to posting piles of garbage.

Edited by SmokedJag, 01 May 2017 - 03:29 AM.

[SFC174]

Alan Davion, on 01 May 2017 - 03:22 AM, said:

Not according to Russ. The difference is he just wants you to experiment with different builds by buying 2-3 duplicates of the same mech.

This is precisely why they're pushing this skill tree change. For whatever reason, their internal metrics show that people aren't buying enough mechs. So they're hoping that despite removing the rule of 3, people will actually buy more mechs to mitigate the pain of respecing on the new tree.

Never forget that PGI is (supposedly) a business. And they wouldn't push forward with something that generally makes their game less fun to play (mobility nerfs, reload nerfs, forced nodes that no one wants, respec costs) if they didn't think it was going to help their bottom line. I too think they are in for a big surprise.

Edited by SFC174, 01 May 2017 - 04:11 AM.