65 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

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Greetings MechWarriors,

The Skill Tree Public Test Session is now offline pending further tweaks and refinements as we approach its planned release in the May patch. Prior to release we will be addressing a number of bugs and improvement opportunities identified during this PTS, including (but not limited to):

• Firepower Tree: Improvements to reduce 'gating' issues, particularly in the initial portions of the Tree. While Weapon-specific Node investments will still be required for maximizing specific Universal Nodes, these changes will enable more direct access to Universal Nodes without the level of investment required into Weapon-specific Nodes seen in the latest PTS build.
• Base Quirk fixes for a number of 'Mechs with incorrect value entries, such as the Negative (detrimental) Quirks for the Assassin.

• MASC: Adjusting base values to address inflated Deceleration behavior.
• MechLab (Consumables): Fixing an issue where the Loadout Alert text was incorrectly formatted.
• MechLab (Consumables): Fixing an issue in the Loadout Error window where a Consumable slot violation was still being referred to as a Module slot violation.
• Cool Shot Consumables: Fixing an issue where using your first of two Cool Shots in a match would cause the entire bar to deplete.
• Cool Shot Consumables: Fixing an issue where using a Cool Shot would cause various issues with subsequent Consumable uses of different types.
• Cool Shot Consumables: Fixing an issue where using a Cool Shot wouldn't display the standard cooldown bar within in the HUD icon.
• Refund Ledger: Categories will now be expanded by default.
• Refund Ledger: Clicking the 'Close' button when viewing the information pane will now take you back to the main Ledger, rather than closing the Ledger itself.
• Refund Process: The starting point for receiving C-Bill refunds from Owned Modules is now December 3rd 2016, rather than February 8th 2017. This new date coincides with the first announcement of the new Skill Tree.

Okay. I really appreciate that PGI is continuing to iterate on this. I do.

I also recognize that some of my prior responses were a bit heated. However those concerns were ones voiced universally from the release of the first PTS about it. I know I suggested Tina actually slap people across the face with a wet rag and I realize that was inappropriate, Tina seems like a very nice person and not the 'slap them with a wet rag' sort.

I'm totally cool with that being done by Matt Newman. Nobody who posts regularly on the forums is going to have too many objections to 'Wet Rag of Community Disapproval' duty.

Critically though -

Stop with the gating.

Stop it.

Don't do it.

Nobody is going to like it and it's not going to do anything for you that another method won't do better.

It flat out prevents us from making meaningful compromises in balancing skills. It forces us to pay all the way up to and past the gate (and all the unwanted 'Universal' nodes) to get the ones that are worthwhile.

The only thing this will accomplish is to expand the problems already created by 'good mechs' (what people call metamechs) playing in matches vs 'bad mechs' via introducing a system that more or less requires you to stick to a pretty narrow path to get into anything good.

It does not create a balanced set of tradeoffs to decide between - in fact it prevents useful tradeoffs.

You want to keep people from min-maxing to get max bonus on weapons? Cap weapon bonuses at 7.5% or whatever. Establish a relative value between them and make the otherwise 'less valuable' stuff worth more per point than the 'valuable' stuff. Have speed tweak only 0.5% per point up to 5% but Hill Climb 7.5% up to to 30% - so there's 10 Speed Tweak nodes but only 4 Hill Climb, so it's worth it for me to only do 8 or even 6 Speed Tweak (as the cost is small) to get some very useful mobility in a lot of situations.

In the current gated system I can't do that. I have to give up heat management stuff (which is a gotta have on most mechs) in order to give up the speed tweak, but I can't spend that on other mobility stuff, I have to spend it on sensors or the like - and I'd need to back out 5SP from, say, Mobility, just to get 4 minimally useful sensor quirks and 1 pt of Derp.

That's never going to be a smart trade. Ever.

Stop gating PGI. Don't do it. You want to gate weapon specific stuff behind universals? That's fine. However gating is stopping us from doing with the skill tree what the skill tree should literally be there to do.

[Johnny Z]

I think they got it right from what I seen.

No hidden values or caps its all right there. Choose what ever anyone wants. Simple.

Of course fine tuning will be done eventually anyway so I hope they don't waste to much time getting it out the door. Of course it has to be fairly well done at launch, so what ever, they know what they are doing better than anyone on these forums.

Edited by Johnny Z, 28 April 2017 - 07:17 PM.

[Druarc]

I'm with Johnny on this one, I fully skilled out 2-3 of each mech class and found I could get the mech I wanted in the new system, even so extra's as I was always too lazy to move my modules or too poor to get more than the 30 ish I had, always had to buy that new shiny mech

[chucklesMuch]

Johnny Z, on 28 April 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

I think they got it right from what I seen.

Snip...

Choose what ever anyone wants. Simple

...Snip

Alternative facts?

Each mech I skilled on the PTS had nodes I selected only because I couldnt select what I did want beyond them without doing so. And I personally don't find it simple... (mechanics sure... I'm okay at clicking a mouse)

Edited by chucklesMuch, 28 April 2017 - 07:28 PM.

[Khobai]

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Stop with the gating.

Stop it.

Don't do it.

the problem is moving useless skill nodes so they dont wall off useful skill nodes doesnt change the fact they have useless skill nodes.

more important than not gating they need to not have useless skill nodes. every node should be worth a consideration for a skill point.

if you have nodes that arnt worth skill points you need to buff those nodes. like 5% hill climbing isnt worth a skill point. But 10%-15% hill climbing might be worth considering.

the sensor tree is especially screwed up and not worth putting points into. But I already started another post on how to fix to the sensor tree in the skill tree forums.

Edited by Khobai, 28 April 2017 - 07:34 PM.

[Johnny Z]

chucklesMuch, on 28 April 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

Alternative facts?

Each mech I skilled on the PTS had nodes I selected only because I couldnt select what I did want beyond them without doing so. And I personally don't find it simple... (mechanics sure... I'm okay at clicking a mouse)

Its going to take a few runs to get a good skill tree for a mech that's for sure, but it makes the skill tree a lot like a mechs load out. Almost exactly the same, a lot of fine tuning and squeezing a balance of performance out of a mech.

The so called meta will be a lot more valuable as a starting point for those that care about such things, which I don't. But to save every skill point it will be.

But again it turns the skill tree into a mech load out situation.

It was even hinted eventually there will be a single pilot skill tree that effects all mechs. Somewhere far down the road. Can GSP be used for that? A lot of real questions to wonder about rather than complain about a real skill tree finally being added.

Anyone low on skill points should be on test that's is 100% for sure. I built my X-5 on test and it wasn't to bad first time. I got tons of skill points to make changes though so I will relax until this goes live.

Edited by Johnny Z, 28 April 2017 - 07:39 PM.

[chucklesMuch]

Johnny Z, on 28 April 2017 - 07:32 PM, said:

Its going to take a few runs to get a good skill tree for a mech that's for sure, but it makes the skill tree a lot like a mechs load out. Almost exactly the same, a lot of fine tuning and squeezing a balance of performance out of a mech.

The so called meta will be a lot more valuable as a starting point for those that care about such things, which I don't. But to save every skill point it will be.

But again it turns the skill tree into a mech load out situation.

It was even hinted eventually there will be a single pilot skill tree that effects all mechs. Somewhere far down the road. Can GSP be used for that? A lot of real questions to wonder about rather than complain about a real skill tree finally being added.

Anyone low on skill points should be on test that's is 100% for sure. I built my X-5 on test and it wasn't to bad first time. I got tons of skill points to make changes though so I will relax until this goes live.

I like your optimism.

My experience wasn't as rosy... my cicada wasn't as enjoyable to pilot, the turning is off... will take time for me to adjust... but then again it ran so hot (as expected). I'm highly likely to retire my cicadas...

I don't expect it to be perfect straight up... but the must have filler design mode is annoying.

[Johnny Z]

chucklesMuch, on 28 April 2017 - 08:03 PM, said:

I like your optimism.

My experience wasn't as rosy... my cicada wasn't as enjoyable to pilot, the turning is off... will take time for me to adjust... but then again it ran so hot (as expected). I'm highly likely to retire my cicadas...

I don't expect it to be perfect straight up... but the must have filler design mode is annoying.

Mine was hotter and slower also. Maybe put to much into durability. Was just testing grounds so not sure how well the durability works.

[Elizander]

I am okay with patching it. Would make potatoes with bad builds and bad skill trees.easier to farm

[DAYLEET]

Skill tree is an elaborate nerf, ofcourse you cant get what you want, thats the whole point. Id rather have unchained skills and have less point to compensate to keep the nerf on and also have more/less points depending of the mech but only after a good run where everyone has the same. Then i would buff in a really really stupid way skills nobody would want even if they were good right now and see what happens. You cant expect support stuff to be picked unless its separate from everything else and easy of access and buffed. Gating with those less valued skills isnt useful if its not you goal to pick them in the first place. Getting something just because its on the way does not mean you will want to use it and then it makes the next skill less valuable.

In any case, i just hope it releases asap. And then hope theres a will to keep working on it.

[kesmai]

DAYLEET, on 28 April 2017 - 10:50 PM, said:

Skill tree is an elaborate nerf, ofcourse you cant get what you want, thats the whole point. Id rather have unchained skills and have less point to compensate to keep the nerf on and also have more/less points depending of the mech but only after a good run where everyone has the same. Then i would buff in a really really stupid way skills nobody would want even if they were good right now and see what happens. You cant expect support stuff to be picked unless its separate from everything else and easy of access and buffed. Gating with those less valued skills isnt useful if its not you goal to pick them in the first place. Getting something just because its on the way does not mean you will want to use it and then it makes the next skill less valuable.

In any case, i just hope it releases asap. And then hope theres a will to keep working on it.

the elaborate part is the problem though...

[fat4eyes]

Guys, the gating is there BECAUSE certain skills are more valuable than others. They KNOW that speed tweak is a hell of a lot more valuable than hill climb, and so therefore it MUST take more skillpoints to get it. The nodes in the way to speed tweak are there to reflect the increased cost. You're not spending sp on useless nodes, you're spending what it SHOULD cost to get speed tweak and are getting EXTRA BONUSES on the way. More that that, the sp you spend doesn't just contribute to getting speed tweak, IT ALSO CONTRIBUTES TO THE PATHS LEADING TO OTHER USEFUL SKILLS, like torso twist and turn rate. As compared to an alternative system where torso twist, speed tweak and turn rate are on separate branches where any sp you spend only contributes to progress in that branch, in the PTS skill tree, THESE BRANCHES SHARE NODES THAT MAKE IT CHEAPER TO GET THESE RELATED USEFUL SKILLS.

Guys, lets not shoot ourselves in the foot in the quest for simplicity. The skill web with its shared nodes actually benefit us and leads to less wasted sp

[chucklesMuch]

fat4eyes, on 29 April 2017 - 12:12 AM, said:

Guys, the gating is there BECAUSE certain skills are more valuable than others. They KNOW that speed tweak is a hell of a lot more valuable than hill climb, and so therefore it MUST take more skillpoints to get it. The nodes in the way to speed tweak are there to reflect the increased cost. You're not spending sp on useless nodes, you're spending what it SHOULD cost to get speed tweak and are getting EXTRA BONUSES on the way. More that that, the sp you spend doesn't just contribute to getting speed tweak, IT ALSO CONTRIBUTES TO THE PATHS LEADING TO OTHER USEFUL SKILLS, like torso twist and turn rate. As compared to an alternative system where torso twist, speed tweak and turn rate are on separate branches where any sp you spend only contributes to progress in that branch, in the PTS skill tree, THESE BRANCHES SHARE NODES THAT MAKE IT CHEAPER TO GET THESE RELATED USEFUL SKILLS.

Guys, lets not shoot ourselves in the foot in the quest for simplicity. The skill web with its shared nodes actually benefit us and leads to less wasted sp

Hill climb is less of an issue for me since it offers something (I guess)... the arm ones or weapon/ams buffs that effect nothing equiped on my mech... seriously?

The arm ones I really don't like, as I would prefer to reduce how they flap around not increase it. (In pts I default to locking them, in live I don't). So I'm 'paying' for an upgrade that is reducing my enjoyment :/

[Roadbuster]

What do the people who complain about the skill tree expect?
A mech with the firepower and tankiness of an assault and the mobility of a light mech?

You complain about your mech running hotter now...
And? What's the problem? You won't be the only one. Everone will experience the same.
What does this mean for you? You might have to change your build, or sacrifice survivability and mobility for firepower, or you will have to manage your heat better.
I think that's perfectly fine.
Do you guys even remember what it was like before we got quirks?


Don't think of this skill tree as a nerf.
It's changing the gameplay. You will have to make trade-offs.
I just hope it will greatly increase TTK by reducing the potential of alpha strikes. Because it drives me crazy to see the tankiest mechs in the game hide behind cover to not get killed in seconds.
Maybe we will see real fights more often again.
The only thing left to do is to bring the "bad" mechs like Victor, Dragon,... back to a level where they are viable again. Stop the power creep.


Something I'd like to get, is the ability to try a "skill-setup" in the testing grounds, before making the final decision and saving.

[Khobai]

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What do the people who complain about the skill tree expect?

better

[SmokedJag]

A lot of the gating is intentional. They do not want you to be able to pick up all of the big skills. The point method is on the clunky side but the design goal is as subtle as a brick. It's meant to cost ~ 40 points to max buff two weapons systems because that plus max survivability prevents you from taking more than one deep tree from Ops/Sensors/Agility. Of course you can jettison survivability or take less than max...

If you want to carry the equivalent of three or four current weapons modules, you pay for that. Don't expect them to change that when they reduce the gating. The Skill Tree is a redesign/rebalance, not a blanket buff.

Edited by SmokedJag, 29 April 2017 - 02:16 AM.

[Khobai]

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They do not want you to be able to pick up all of the big skills

except every skill node should be worth 1 skill point.

hill climbing +5% for example is not worth 1 skill point.

it is a waste of a skill point. forcing people to spend skill points on skills that are a complete waste is nothing more than an obvious attempt to overinflate the skill tree with unnecessary skill nodes so PGI can monetize it more effectively.

it is transparent and players saw through it.

having less skill nodes but having each skill node be worth considering spending a skill point on would make far more sense from a game design perspective. Whereas walling off useful skills behind a bunch of useless skills really only benefits PGI's bottom line, not the player, or the game.

Edited by Khobai, 29 April 2017 - 02:26 AM.

[Sjorpha]

"Preventing min-maxing" should be done solely by making all skills actually worth taking.

If a skill isn't worth spending a skill point on it simply shouldn't be in the skill tree. Which seems a very good starting point to reduce the extreme bloating, simply start by removing every underpowered node, should cut it in half at least.

[SmokedJag]

Khobai, on 29 April 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

except every skill node should be worth 1 skill point.

hill climbing +5% for example is not worth 1 skill point.

it is a waste of a skill point. forcing people to spend skill points on skills that are a complete waste is nothing more than an obvious attempt to overinflate the skill tree with unnecessary skill nodes so PGI can monetize it more effectively.

it is transparent and players saw through it.

having less skill nodes but having each skill node be worth considering spending a skill point on would make far more sense from a game design perspective. Whereas walling off useful skills behind a bunch of useless skills really only benefits PGI's bottom line, not the player, or the game.

I would prefer it was something like WoW's (current) talent tree but I see no reason to think as a 'Mech design question that few nodes would change anything. If anything the granularity is better for taking partials from each tree and I guarantee you people would want some granularity if they didn't have it.

[Scyther]

I think Fat4eyes has a point: they could make Cool Run cost you more points, or they can make you take 'useless' points in Hill Climb or Improved Gyros to get. Either way it's going to cost you 17 points to get cool run to 10% (the Skill Tree 2 max). The Skill2 system just throws in some 'bonus' skills along the way, and as Fat4eyes pointed out, some of those nodes also help unlock Heat Containment or Quick Ignition, for example.

Unfortunately what Khobai said is also correct. It's a clumsy way to say 'we want to increase heat, decrease weapon effectiveness, and make 'mechs either slower/less agile or less powerful or have less defense/utility, and we're doing it by making you take skills you don't want and possibly can't even use.'

In effect, the 'Pinpoint' skill has been a long-standing point of mockery on the current skill tree because it is a useless 'skill tax' to Elite a mech that nobody wants but is forced to take. Skill Tree 2 has literally dozens of nodes like this. The fact that their intent is an obvious nerf, and that you might pick up a semi-useful skill or two here isn't going to prevent this from constantly annoying people with every mech they skill.

Last I checked, 'frequently annoying a sizeable portion of your customer base' wasn't a highly recommended business tactic. There are less offensive ways to achieve the same effect.

That being said, I did find other, addressable issues in my Skill Tree 2 "Elite a Mech" experiment. I posted it in the PTS2 discussion forum but apparently hardly anyone goes there.

https://mwomercs.com...ter-comparison/ for a direct comparison of just 'eliting' a standard mech under Skill Tree 2.