29 replies to this topic

[Aeries]

As a new player with only 2 months under my belt I am having a hard time justifying my decision to focus on IS mechs and eventually getting into FP as an IS Loyalist.

It appears that clan mechs have had an advantage for years since release and IS mechs have had to be balanced out with offensive quirks to compensate for their massive advantage that still remains lopsided.

Now when this goes live nearly every single IS mech, good or bad, is having its offensive quirks nerfed and in many cases severely as well as the handful of "bad" clan mechs that had some quirks as well.

I get the removal of agility quirks as it goes with engine decoupling and is a pill that both sides have to swallow, but why on earth nerf the only thing that helps balance the huge offensive capabilities clan mechs carry.

I am seriously to the point where I am ready to sell every single IS mech, weapon, engine, and component I have and just jump on the clan bandwagon and buy a Artic Cheetah, ShadowCat, Hunch IIC, NightGyr, TWolf, MadIIC, and Kodiak.

Can someone with more experience give me any coherent logical reason not to?

And please don't give me the Civil War tech reason. It is still not on par with clan tech and we have no way of knowing if it will be good, bad, or something in the middle when it does get here. Why play IS mechs when this goes live?

Thank you for your time.

[Meihru]

Don't forget to mention that most IS mechs have to full firepower quirks to get just anywhere close the the old quirks (in most cases they will still be weaker then before, even with maximum skilltreequirks); whereas many clans just stay nearly the same and get the skilltreequirks ON TOP.

[oldradagast]

Honestly, there probably is no good reason to keep playing them.

I wouldn't sell them - yet - since it would be just like PGI to strip all IS mechs of useful quirks, leave them worthless for months, and then make a huge balance change in the other direction and suddenly make IS mechs brokenly overpowered for a few months. They don't get it, and they never will.

That being said, I wouldn't waste a dime of skill maze resources on releveling IS mechs until it's proven they can compete with all the top-tier Clan meta garbage that will utterly dominated this game after the quirk removal and mobility nerfs.

Of course, I'm not even sure if it's worth putting too many skill points into anything once the skill maze goes live since I strongly suspect they will heavily change the maze at least once when new tech arrives and they won't have the decency or programming skills to offer everyone free respecs on their mechs. Just another way to increase the grind. Running as fast as you can to stay where you are or fall behind.

[Aeries]

Meihru, on 29 April 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

Don't forget to mention that most IS mechs have to full firepower quirks to get just anywhere close the the old quirks (in most cases they will still be weaker then before, even with maximum skilltreequirks); whereas many clans just stay nearly the same and get the skilltreequirks ON TOP.

Yep, since ~90% of clan mechs had zero quirks to begin with short of having a set of 8 they are actually getting an across the board buff which is utterly mindblowing.

Both sides lose a maximum of -17% weapon cooldown with the loss of quickfire and weapon modules and getting 9.9% (IS) and 7.8% (Clan) back with skill tree maximum investment. Thanks for the 2.1% "advantage".

Both sides lose the 12% range on modules for weapons with a max recoup of 15% on the skill tree. So an even 3% buff on both sides.

Now, unlike before, the strongest mechs have access to -10% duration, -8% heat generation, and +10% velocity that they had zero access to before. Huge buffs, not to mention access to armor and structure buffs that not every IS mech had.

Edit: Clans get -10% duration, not 15%.

Edited by Aeries, 01 May 2017 - 04:30 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

I would tell you to run them both and stop playing cw until they balance it or IS v IS events come out..

Clans mechs are fun too and both will get thier own few new weapons. I personally look forward to playing with them both after new tech.

[ForceUser]

I'm sure the Civil War tech update coming out in 2 1/2 months time will have zero effect on the parity level of IS and clans.

None whatsoever...

/s

[Chound]

Aeries, on 29 April 2017 - 06:11 AM, said:

As a new player with only 2 months under my belt I am having a hard time justifying my decision to focus on IS mechs and eventually getting into FP as an IS Loyalist.

It appears that clan mechs have had an advantage for years since release and IS mechs have had to be balanced out with offensive quirks to compensate for their massive advantage that still remains lopsided.

Now when this goes live nearly every single IS mech, good or bad, is having its offensive quirks nerfed and in many cases severely as well as the handful of "bad" clan mechs that had some quirks as well.

I get the removal of agility quirks as it goes with engine decoupling and is a pill that both sides have to swallow, but why on earth nerf the only thing that helps balance the huge offensive capabilities clan mechs carry.

I am seriously to the point where I am ready to sell every single IS mech, weapon, engine, and component I have and just jump on the clan bandwagon and buy a Artic Cheetah, ShadowCat, Hunch IIC, NightGyr, TWolf, MadIIC, and Kodiak.

Can someone with more experience give me any coherent logical reason not to?

And please don't give me the Civil War tech reason. It is still not on par with clan tech and we have no way of knowing if it will be good, bad, or something in the middle when it does get here. Why play IS mechs when this goes live?

Thank you for your time.

IS mechs are cheaper so they are a good starting mech to learn the basicsj 4 medium mechs will allow you to participate in FP although that has problems at the moment. I have a lot of IS mechs because they're inexpensive and good to get my feet wet see how I like the game.

[Xmith]

Takes more than 2 months to learn how to play effectively, IS or Clan.

[ForceUser]

On a serious note, I have close to half/half IS and Clan in my 176 mech stable and I've tested both in the new skill tree. Overall, both have had a bit of a downgrade in effectiveness but since this is true of all mechs, I didn't see a particular effective reduction in combat ability. I also ran into plenty of enemy IS mechs that had no problem performing plenty well enough either.

I expect by the time people really figure out what if any mechs are over/under performing more than they are currently the new tech will drop and it'll all be irrelevant. New tech weight savings + safety + new weapons + skill tree weight savings (ammo skills) and the ability to mount about a dozen current modules worth of bonuses will turn the game on it's head.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

IS will get lots of cool new weapons like rotary AC or unquided medium range missiles.

[John McHobo]

Quote

why on earth nerf the only thing that helps balance the huge offensive capabilities clan mechs carry.

Keep in mind that IS mechs will keep their structure quirks, so there is a small counter to clan alphas.
I don´t believe though that structure alone will help IS mechs against a quirked Ebon Jaguar or engine desynced Night Gyr (fella will kick the Timber Wolf off its throne).

So...yeah after quite a lot of thinking: I don´t have an idea why.
And I think so has PGI.

[oldradagast]

John McHobo, on 30 April 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

Keep in mind that IS mechs will keep their structure quirks, so there is a small counter to clan alphas.
I don´t believe though that structure alone will help IS mechs against a quirked Ebon Jaguar or engine desynced Night Gyr (fella will kick the Timber Wolf off its throne).

So...yeah after quite a lot of thinking: I don´t have an idea why.
And I think so has PGI.

PGI has no clue - they don't even play this game and don't care what damage they do to it.

Structural quirks are nearly worthless since your weapons will be blown out almost as soon as the armor is breached. All they do is let you live a bit longer as a stick and allow foes to farm more damage off you before you die.

[Taxxian]

I dont think anyone can make sure predictions that IS will be dead or over the top or whatever. There are to many changed variables to know exactly what happens!

IS Buffs:
- IS has many more Structure- and Armor Quirks, since IS and Clan get 30% from the Defense-Tree, ISes 30% is considerably bigger
- all IS assaults use fairly small STD engines, so they will all profit from engine desync
- IS gets bigger bonuses from the Firepower Tree
- while many IS Mechs indeed loose some Quirks, many loose useless Quirks ord didnt have noticeable Quirks to begin with, so they get the full buffs from the new Firepower Tree

Yes many IS Mechs seem to loose more than they win, but the same is true for some Clan Mechs. And since IS has many more mechs its highly likely they will have good mechs we can play after the patch. I just might not be the exact same ones as before.

So lets just wait and take some steps in the new world before we complain everything to the ground!

I am really looking forward to the Skill Tree Patch!

[Monkey Lover]

Teer Kerensky, on 30 April 2017 - 02:41 AM, said:

IS will get lots of cool new weapons like rotary AC or unquided medium range missiles.

Yep yep, at the same time clans will get ATM . Lock on srm with a small arc. Might be super fun .

Good time to own everything

[Damnedtroll]

Have you ever played the boardgame ? Clan mech are monsters that you need to take out two against one for same class or with a couple of lucky shots. They have nerfed the clan so much that it's destroying the lore...

With lowering the drop weight to balance in FP was better than nerfing but not enough. Just take out all the nerfing and buff and put 2 stars (10) of clan mech against 3 lances(12) of IS. The big problem with my solution is quick play who everybody play what they want. The absence of physical attack give advantage also to clan mech, because a lots of clan mech don't have hand actuator and are bad in physical combat.

Edited by Damnedtroll, 01 May 2017 - 05:26 AM.

[spottiedogman]

OP at two months of play use the ones you have to learn the game. The list of clan mechs you posted are most if not all the top mechs and you will be focused in game play which in my opinion is not the way to learn the game. Unless you like it that way!

[Scyther]

There is a powerful tool you can use when online to help answer questions like this. It's the "ignore 99% of the exaggeration, hyperbole, and outright BS you see in the forums and check the source material directly" tool. (I haven't come up with a catchier name for it yet, sorry.)

The source material is the IS quirk change list:
https://static.mwome...Final%20PTS.pdf

Taken from the official PTS2 info page:
https://mwomercs.com...test-session-2/

All the really big (30% and up) quirk reductions there are (mostly) Agility/Mobility quirks, which are (mostly) getting rolled into the mechs base stats, and also affected by engine desync. So those big red changes aren't exactly being removed but they are being altered.

The second set of 'large' quirk reductions (20-30%) is almost entirely made of Velocity changes, PPC/Ballistic/Missile, which will certainly affect mechs but not ruin their effectiveness. That is probably being done in preparation for new tech release so they can set a baseline to compare weapon effectiveness/mech effectiveness before they start re-balancing.

There are a few sizeable changes (15-30%) in some Cooldown/Fire Rate quirks, and a couple in Heat Generation. These will be most noticeable but there aren't a ton of them.

Most of the remaining changes aren't 'stripping' quirks, they are reducing them by 5%, 10%, occasionally 15%. Eg. Jenner JR7-F Energy Duration quirk goes from 10% to 5%, JR7-K goes from 5% to 0, Oxide keeps its Missile Cooldown and Velocity quirks but loses it's 5% Missile Heat Gen quirk.

Pretty much all defensive/structure quirks remain as is.

I don't see much there that is game-breaking, and it certainly isn't 'nerfing all IS mechs into uselessness'. They will be annoying and they do worsen the IS/Clan tech imbalance, although potentially the Clan mechs will be hit worse by the global heat nerf, so that will need some testing.

There is also nothing at all preventing them from re-quirking IS mechs later should people determine they aren't worth playing and actually stop playing/buying them.

IMO it would be unwise in the extreme to sell mechs off before the changeover, but that is your decision to make. Just don't make it based on the heated, often fact-free opinions you find in the forum.

@Damnedtroll: In BT lore, part of the 'power imbalance' between Clan and IS is due to Clan tech being better, but at least half of it is due to Clan pilots being bred from before birth to be superior Mech pilots, spend a lifetime training for that, train and work together as a unit more effectively than most IS units, and the less skilled ones are constantly being tested and removed. The actual tech is only part of the difference.

Edited by MadBadger, 01 May 2017 - 05:36 AM.

[Aeries]

Despite my real life job gathering and analyzing data as a scientist, knowledge learned in grade school taught me that if I want to gather reliable data I don't

- alter the baseline of my control group when I want to evaluate the effects of a test group, it's a control group for a reason

or for you math lovers

- don't change the value of X before the addition of Y to get an accurate result

That's not just bad science/math, that's just bad common sense.

[Damnedtroll]

MadBadger, on 01 May 2017 - 05:32 AM, said:

@Damnedtroll: In BT lore, part of the 'power imbalance' between Clan and IS is due to Clan tech being better, but at least half of it is due to Clan pilots being bred from before birth to be superior Mech pilots, spend a lifetime training for that, train and work together as a unit more effectively than most IS units, and the less skilled ones are constantly being tested and removed. The actual tech is only part of the difference.

Yep pilot skill is a part of it on board games, put weapon weight and critical space for FF ES are world apart... it's just to comprehend that clan mech are better by weight than IS mech from the start. In MWO, we don't pay the maintaining cost of them, we don't use the clan rules of engagement, we are not bidding our battle for honor like clannish do in lore. But it's a computer game we cannot compare. It's just the tech used is based on the board game. On the board game we have the ''battle value'' for equality in battle if we look for it.

Pgi have worked hard to make them playable against each other one vs one and I mostly use IS mech and will continue to play them. Skill tree will be useful to specialize our battlemech to use it more like you want to play them.

Edited by Damnedtroll, 01 May 2017 - 06:07 AM.

[Aeries]

Damnedtroll, on 01 May 2017 - 04:56 AM, said:

Have you ever played the boardgame ? Clan mech are monsters that you need to take out two against one for same class or with a couple of lucky shots. They have nerfed the clan so much that it's destroying the lore...

With lowering the drop weight to balance in FP was better than nerfing but not enough. Just take out all the nerfing and buff and put 2 stars (10) of clan mech against 3 lances(12) of IS. The big problem with my solution is quick play who everybody play what they want. The absence of physical attack give advantage also to clan mech, because a lots of clan mech don't have hand actuator and are bad in physical combat.

I have played BT/MW games for nearly 30 years, so yes, I am familiar with lore. This is not a lore game. Online games have to revolve around some semblance of balance, especially between two apposing sides. As it stands now ~60 - 75% of mechs in QP are clan and from what I have read are used exclusively in competitive, there is a reason for that.