8 replies to this topic

[naterist]

you know, i find it really cool that mechs can spot for your lrm boats without tag or narq, but the more i think about it, the less of a good idea it seems.

first, it degrades the value of the narq and tag. if they remove lrm spotting as is like i think they should, they could even leave narq and tags current bonus's, as tonnage is invested to get them.

second, people dont mind being lurmed to death when its done as a reult of strategty, which is were narq and tag on a light come in. but when its solo que on polar and teir5-mcdoofy face is lrm spamming because its his only crutch, it is rather infuriating, and detrimental to getting people out of the pokewars mentality

third, it brings people into the playstyle that is required for this game, which is los direct fire, and short of that lrming from next to your teammates because you need los and no one else brought tag, so your forced to be up there sharing armor.

bonus, this also leaves open the door for c3 computers later, which ad a much cooler level of target gathering and info warfare.

now before people lose it, no, i do think you should be able to share target "locks" in sharing target info and location and get the mechtype cursor over the mechs location and all that as currently is. im just saying that lrms shouldnt be able to get a locked firing solution without LoS, tag, or a narq being in effect. in teir 5 puglandia this would be gamechanging. fp, comp, and upper teirs(maybe) not such a big deal.

[Monkey Lover]

Shared locks are ok but shared locks shouldnt be as good as los lrms. They need to nerf non-los and buff los lrms. Reward people for getting their own locks.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 30 April 2017 - 10:27 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

One of the better aspects of LRMs was the target decay time allowing you to fire extra volleys at a target that has just fallen out of LOS, giving the gun that tactical advantage. Radar deprivation certainly puts a damper on that idea though.

[naterist]

Monkey Lover, on 30 April 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

Shared locks are ok but shared locks shouldnt be as good as los lrms. They need to nerf non-los and buff los lrms. Reward people for getting their own locks.

problem is if you nerf it then the people this is thought of to guide wouldnt understand and would still use it anyways. they arent gonna figure it out unless there is no other alternative. non los lrms suck already so nerfing it does nothing but make the terribads less useful. getting rid of it entirely forces people outta that safe zone.

[Spheroid]

Get real, direct fire lurming will never win trades. You are telling noobs to get their face shot off by gauss. That's not very good advice.

Indirect fire has been in Battletech since time immemorial. Also TAG and NARC were effectively extinct in the three hundred years following the fall of the Star League. Something was spotting for those lurms.

I much rather have a lurm boat behind the ridge line on polar domination shooting at UAV illuminated targets than heed your call to expose themselves to the enemy and die a quick joyless death. A softened target can atleast be dealt with secondary armament.

In short nothing is wrong with current LRM mechanics save the pathetic uber-nerfed TAG/NARC rewards which are still broken from years ago.

Edited by Spheroid, 30 April 2017 - 11:46 PM.

[El Bandito]

TAG is very sucky, as it tells the other team to shoot your face off with that bright red light leading straight to you. Unless it is reworked so that TAG is visible only in NV and HV modes, TAG is never recommended over NARC.

[Khobai]

LRMs will never be good as long as theyre hard countered by ECM. ECM stealth and super stealth bubble have gotta be removed from the game.

Quote

TAG is very sucky, as it tells the other team to shoot your face off with that bright red light leading straight to you. Unless it is reworked so that TAG is visible only in NV and HV modes, TAG is never recommended over NARC.

An easy way to fix TAG would be to add arrow IV to the game. Make it so the arrow IV travels to the last known location of the TAGGED mech. And can only adjust its course when the target is tagged. Being able to drop cruise missiles on people with huge aoes would make TAG worth it.

Edited by Khobai, 01 May 2017 - 12:45 AM.

[naterist]

Spheroid, on 30 April 2017 - 11:35 PM, said:

Get real, direct fire lurming will never win trades. You are telling noobs to get their face shot off by gauss. That's not very good advice.

Indirect fire has been in Battletech since time immemorial. Also TAG and NARC were effectively extinct in the three hundred years following the fall of the Star League. Something was spotting for those lurms.

I much rather have a lurm boat behind the ridge line on polar domination shooting at UAV illuminated targets than heed your call to expose themselves to the enemy and die a quick joyless death. A softened target can atleast be dealt with secondary armament.

In short nothing is wrong with current LRM mechanics save the pathetic uber-nerfed TAG/NARC rewards which are still broken from years ago.

Tag and narq would still allow for indirect fire in coordinated cercumstances, and it would force lurm boats in solo que to share armour, or at least not hide in the spawnzone.

[Lykaon]

naterist, on 30 April 2017 - 09:59 PM, said:

you know, i find it really cool that mechs can spot for your lrm boats without tag or narq, but the more i think about it, the less of a good idea it seems.

first, it degrades the value of the narq and tag. if they remove lrm spotting as is like i think they should, they could even leave narq and tags current bonus's, as tonnage is invested to get them.

second, people dont mind being lurmed to death when its done as a reult of strategty, which is were narq and tag on a light come in. but when its solo que on polar and teir5-mcdoofy face is lrm spamming because its his only crutch, it is rather infuriating, and detrimental to getting people out of the pokewars mentality

third, it brings people into the playstyle that is required for this game, which is los direct fire, and short of that lrming from next to your teammates because you need los and no one else brought tag, so your forced to be up there sharing armor.

bonus, this also leaves open the door for c3 computers later, which ad a much cooler level of target gathering and info warfare.

now before people lose it, no, i do think you should be able to share target "locks" in sharing target info and location and get the mechtype cursor over the mechs location and all that as currently is. im just saying that lrms shouldnt be able to get a locked firing solution without LoS, tag, or a narq being in effect. in teir 5 puglandia this would be gamechanging. fp, comp, and upper teirs(maybe) not such a big deal.

Overall I would put you in the group most players occupy. You have some basic idea of LRM functionality but to you LRMs are just a weapon system like any other.

You have yet to grasp the tactical and strategic functionality of indirect fire. You don't quite get how to optimize the option of indirect fire to influence the enemy's choices.

To you LRMs are a gun,like a PPC or an autocannon but with some different "rules" and lousy baseline stats.

So here is the problem with your idea.

In solo play it will be a rare case when someone brings a TAG or a NARC on a spotter mech AND there are sufficent LRMs present on some other chassis to make the risk of spotting worth it to a solo player.

So this will not really happen with enough frequency to merit taking NARCs TAGs or even LRMs at all. In solo play LRMs will become nigh unto exstinct.

Now here is the issue with that. In group play the higher levels of organization are precisely to tools a team needs to reduce the threat and influence of LRM barrage. Already in organized group play the "difficulty level" for LRMs is set higher than it is in solo play.

So ironicly the only reliable situation where you will have a dedicated spotter for LRM optimization is exactally the enviorment where LRMs will have reduced effectivness due to higher levels of organization present. Removal of passive friendly locks and requiring targeting equipment will add even more difficulty and essentially be the last nail in the LURM coffin for organized play with groups.

QUOTE "third, it brings people into the playstyle that is required for this game, which is los direct fire, and short of that lrming from next to your teammates because you need los and no one else brought tag, so your forced to be up there sharing armor." END QUOTE

"Required' in what way? how is it required to play in this fashion? Do you expect an ECM and ER-PPC sniper mech like a Shadowcat to be on the front lines "sharing armor" or would that mech serve better as an unseen hit and fade sniper?

Should a high speed harasser like a small pulse arctic cheetah be expected to "share armor" would your team be best served by having this mech take damage or evade damage while disrupting the enemy?

Should a mech equiped with a primary weapons system with the largest minimum range bracket of 0-180m a 160mps projectile speed (second only to MGs in slowness) highly vulnerable to ECM ( Active probe counter ECM ranges are within LRM min ranges) and lacking the capacity to concentrate damage be required to stand on the front and trade shots with mechs with weapons that out class them in direct fire in every convievable way?

About the only thing going for LRMs is the capacity to fire indirectly and over the front line friendlies.

"requiring" an LRM support platform to behave like a direct fire platform is not taking full advantage of the capabilities of the LRM weapon system. Why on earth would I opt to trade shots with my LRM launchers against a target that has double the fire rate twice the projectile traverse speeds and is not vulnerable to countermeasures? I wouldn't I would just use another weapon system and not use LRMs at all.

There is a reason why modern mortor teams don't go head to head with rifle infantry...it doesn't work out well at all for the soon to be over run mortor team.

No I could write a massive document on the tactical and strategic techniques used with LRMs and how most of it gets gutted by removing "passive" friendly locking.

All I can tell you is LRM strengths are not found in using them as direct fire weapons on the front lines.In this capacity they can not compete with actual direct fire weapons. If you want a direct fire platform then use something else LRMs don't cut it.

Edited by Lykaon, 01 May 2017 - 01:25 AM.