60 replies to this topic

[lazytopaz]

Buying 3 mechs have always been a sort of aching finger that you constantly batter on corners and various aggressive surfaces.

But tinkering to some point (at least for beginners) is as equally expensive.
Until you learn to save some money to buy 1 of few most commonly used engine types and sizes to switch around in your stable. (lets even say you buy 3 of most commonly used STD's and 3 XL's thats already about 10-20 mil cbills)
Get and move around 2-8 same types of weapon around your mechs/inventory. Which if you look at prices arent that cheap if you're about to slap on a mech 2x gauss or 2 ac20, etc. (thats roughly another 10-20)

And after all that you come across a build that suits you well like a glove and you have to keep things on the mech so everytime you want to take it out is ready. So now you either remember/write down the specs for the build and switch it back on or just keep it on and buy "missing" parts afterwards.

I remember having about 40 or 50 IS medium lasers... until I've sold at least half of them.

BTW one thing I've thought about now.

We need more dynamic and quicker way to analyze player skill based on his performance.
As we all well know there are people in here who have multiple accounts.
So not every newbie is equally as "newbie" to one another.
There are veterans who have multiple new/fresh accounts just to play purely as clan/is or just to have some fun playing in tier 5.
This is no fun to total newbs when they join a match that is filled with new accounts steered by veterans and get their s#it pushed in.
Thats why current PSR needs to react way faster than current tier system.
As soon as you dish out for example a streak of games with 500 damage done or have a streak of games where you output 5 killing blows/kmdd's you move up a tier. IF you have loosing streak you are being kicked down to previous "more newbie" tier. And so on.
It needs to react more rapidly so people that are still learning stuff can do it in their own pace/bubble filled with same level of skilled pilots.

[Weeny Machine]

Nesutizale, on 01 May 2017 - 02:27 AM, said:

Extra costs to reskill will be the reason why I will wait with skilling a mech till I found a loadout that I like. Then stick with it.
It realy sucks out the fun of experimentation....

There should be a kind of "grace period" of 45min till your skilling becomes fix

[SFC174]

Bud Crue, on 01 May 2017 - 04:27 AM, said:

I think you are giving them too much credit...or you are right, and PGI is doomed.

To wit:
These people claimed their internal metrics insisted that the Enforcer 5P was OP and needed a nerf. Their metrics have shown them that LBX toting Adders are OP. Their metrics demanded that Panthers and Wolfhounds needed bonus armor so as to be tanky and offset their being "under-performers" but that Firestarters are still a dominant light and performing just fine. Their use of metrics is what is causing them to believe that a random assortment of offensive nerfs to mechs that are already the worst in the game will magically lead to a better baseline of performance in the future...i.e. that making bad mechs worse makes bad mechs better; that is what PGI's use of metrics has lead them to conclude.

And you think they have metrics that suggest to them a more profitable path forward for their company?

Well if they interpret and apply such business directing metrics in the same way as they do their in game metrics, then PGI as a business is well and truly screwed.

I think they have metrics. I do not think those metrics mean what they think they mean. And I don't think that they are making wise decisions with the data they have. Given Russ' attitude toward the player base, maybe this is just an edict from on high. The developers are doing what they're told and when the new skill tree doesn't do what Russ expected, they'll try something else.....

[I_AM_ZUUL]

SFC174, on 01 May 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

I think they have metrics. I do not think those metrics mean what they think they mean. And I don't think that they are making wise decisions with the data they have. Given Russ' attitude toward the player base, maybe this is just an edict from on high. The developers are doing what they're told and when the new skill tree doesn't do what Russ expected, they'll try something else.....

the Pinpoint Skill has done NOTHING for 4 years... still have not fixed it. That is what one can reasonably expect from PGI... NOTHING!!!!! At this point I would be satisfied if all they did was make Mechpacks & Maps (anyone else remeber when we used to get those?) cause that is ALL that PGI has shown if the smallest modicum of competency at accomplishing... I just want them to stop trying cause they are terrible at it and only results in a worse product. Make me MAPS for the love of god and stop trying to do what you can not!!!!!!!

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 01 May 2017 - 10:11 PM.

[Mystere]

Navid A1, on 30 April 2017 - 10:51 PM, said:

All I see on the forums is complaining about cbill refunds (me included) ...

Methinks you have not been paying attention.

[Appogee]

The most important issue is that the new tree will destroy balance.

Bad Mechs are going back to being bad. But good Mechs get access to new buffs. The advantage of Clan Tech over IS will widen again.

[Mystere]

Appogee, on 01 May 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

The most important issue is that the new tree will destroy balance.

Bad Mechs are going back to being bad. But good Mechs get access to new buffs. The advantage of Clan Tech over IS will widen again.

Well then, this would present a great opportunity to start having lore-based Clan vs. IS formations.

[Davegt27]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 01 May 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

the Pinpoint Skill has done NOTHING for 4 years... still have not fixed it. That is what one can reasonably expect from PGI... NOTHING!!!!! At this point I would be satisfied if all they did was make Mechpacks & Maps (anyone else remeber when we used to get those?) cause that is ALL that PGI has shown if the smallest modicum of competency at accomplishing... I just want them to stop trying cause they are terrible at it and only results in a worse product. Make me MAPS for the love of god and stop trying to do what you can not!!!!!!!

Well looks like your closing in on the real reason for the new skill tree
Add to that its hard to electronically balance the game if you keep changing
Your load outs

Add these factors and you can see the push for the ST

[Appogee]

Davegt27, on 01 May 2017 - 10:25 PM, said:

Well looks like your closing in on the real reason for the new skill tree

Nope.

The key design goal of the new Skill Tree is to create a CBill sink so that players have fewer CBills on hand to buy Mechs and equipment, making players more likely to buy Mechs with MC and cash.

Think about it... All of PGI's skill tree design plans have tried to avoid providing established players a windfall of refunded CBills.

V1: Faced with the prospect of having to refund Modules in the currency they were paid for - CBills - they came up with the idea of using CBills to unlock a Skill Node, and extra CBill cost to respec... to get rid of the refunded CBills. But that caused problems for 'cheapskates' without many modules.

V2: Their next idea was to refund modules as GSP instead of CBills ... because you can't buy Mechs with GSP. That enabled them to lower the CBill unlock and respec costs. But they didn't remove the CBill costs completely, because they still have the primary goal of trying to get everyone, from new player to established, to buy more Mechs with MC and cash.

So it's clear this is all about the CBills, from their perspective, and trying to sell more Mechs for MC and cash.

I don't begrudge PGI the goal of trying to make money. But it's a shame that their plan will also wreck game balance as a side effect. Surely they could do better.

Good design decisions attract player funding... because they lead to good games. Bad design decisions - those which try to gouge more money from players but make the game worse - ultimately just drive players away.

Edited by Appogee, 01 May 2017 - 11:00 PM.

[Elizander]

If the game auto-discounts duplicates after mastery then I am game.for clone mech army.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Appogee, on 01 May 2017 - 10:47 PM, said:

I don't begrudge PGI the goal of trying to make money. But it's a shame that their plan will also wreck game balance as a side effect. Surely they could do better.

Good design decisions attract player funding... because they lead to good games. Bad design decisions - those which try to gouge more money from players but make the game worse - ultimately just drive players away.

This^^^^

I who have thrown many thousands of dollars at Battletech in my lifetime will not give PGI anymore money if they implement this failed abortion... they will firmly close my wallet which is the exact opposite response they were looking for. Hell... just have a New Map fund that when it is full we get a new map & I would keep paying them money every month to help refilling it. What i will not support is horrifically terrible ideas that wreck game balance from people who do not even play the game or have any understanding of what they are doing (Poptarting being a prime example... TT only lets you shoot ONE weapon while jumping but PGI smashed JJs into the ground instead, so poptarting still exists but JJs which are supposed to make your mech very mobile have been reduced to Hoverjets.)

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 01 May 2017 - 11:06 PM.

[Appogee]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 01 May 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Poptarting being a prime example... TT only lets you shoot ONE weapon while jumping but PGI smashed JJs into the ground instead, so poptarting still exists but JJs which are supposed to make your mech very mobile have been reduced to Hoverjets.

I hadn't thought about that before... but hell yes, really good point.

While I don't want Mechs to behave like Gundams, I do think the current JJ nerf is too severe.

Limiting a jumping Mech to firing one weapon ("because the target computing has to work extra hard to compensate for the 3 dimension movement") would solve all kinds of balance problems, including:

• the Clan high-alpha jump-snipe balance issue.
  
• constant feathering of JJs in brawls to spoof hitreg.
  
• it would buff JJ-equipped Lights.

Gah! Why didn't they do this? It's a much better solution than what we have.

[Shifty McSwift]

Appogee, on 01 May 2017 - 11:09 PM, said:

I hadn't thought about that before... but hell yes, really good point.

While I don't want Mechs to behave like Gundams, I do think the current JJ nerf is too severe.

Limiting a jumping Mech to firing one weapon ("because the target computing has to work extra hard to compensate for the 3 dimension movement") would solve all kinds of balance problems, including:

• the Clan high-alpha jump-snipe balance issue.
  
• constant feathering of JJs in brawls to spoof hitreg.
  
• it would buff JJ-equipped Lights.

Gah! Why didn't they do this? It's a much better solution than what we have.

Even if they did that you think there wouldn't be people screaming bloody murder about it? "Poptarts were fine, nerfed my favourite build PGI stinks and hates me personally, I refuse to give money now, give me refund for my JJ mechs scam artists." Would be the first topic, the next would be "OMG why the fk are you stupid devs playing around with Fing JJs fix the faction warfare before ruining perfectly good builds more, why do you hate the community!!!!!"

So there is almost no winning at this stage.

[Appogee]

Shifty McSwift, on 01 May 2017 - 11:20 PM, said:

Even if they did that you think there wouldn't be people screaming bloody murder about it? "Poptarts were fine, nerfed my favourite build PGI stinks and hates me personally, I refuse to give money now, give me refund for my JJ mechs scam artists." Would be the first topic, the next would be "OMG why the fk are you stupid devs playing around with Fing JJs fix the faction warfare before ruining perfectly good builds more, why do you hate the community!!!!!"

Some people will complain about everything, sure.

But developers should be focused on making the game better, not on oiling squeaky wheels.

You make money by making a good product, not by trying to force people to buy your stuff.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Appogee, on 01 May 2017 - 11:09 PM, said:

I hadn't thought about that before... but hell yes, really good point.

While I don't want Mechs to behave like Gundams, I do think the current JJ nerf is too severe.

Limiting a jumping Mech to firing one weapon ("because the target computing has to work extra hard to compensate for the 3 dimension movement") would solve all kinds of balance problems, including:

• the Clan high-alpha jump-snipe balance issue.
  
• constant feathering of JJs in brawls to spoof hitreg.
  
• it would buff JJ-equipped Lights.

Gah! Why didn't they do this? It's a much better solution than what we have.

They did not do it cause they DO NOT UNDERSTAND the game... name a meta or broken thing in the game and I can quote the page number of the Rule they are not following which causes it to be broken.

Shifty McSwift, on 01 May 2017 - 11:20 PM, said:

Even if they did that you think there wouldn't be people screaming bloody murder about it? "Poptarts were fine, nerfed my favourite build PGI stinks and hates me personally, I refuse to give money now, give me refund for my JJ mechs scam artists." Would be the first topic, the next would be "OMG why the fk are you stupid devs playing around with Fing JJs fix the faction warfare before ruining perfectly good builds more, why do you hate the community!!!!!"

So there is almost no winning at this stage.

Hyperbole, much??? I directly referenced just how bad the systemic failure is at PGI that goes back YEARS of their failing and you whine about how it would be received NOW??? They should have fixed it correctly years ago but they did not then and have never even smashed the JJ acceleration bug of newer mechs like the NTG which is what allows them to be viable as poptarts while my Highlander can barely even get off the ground with a full JJ investment of 6 tons. You are the squeaky wheel by being the PGI apologists not those of us would are speaking the facts of reality... I want the game to be good but that is demonstratively not an option, therefore I would settle for them not making it worse and would even pay them to not make it worse by focusing exclusively on Mechpacks & Maps.

[Shifty McSwift]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 02 May 2017 - 12:22 AM, said:

Hyperbole, much???

Not really, I can actually picture those posts coming up, its exaggerated for effect, but not really too far off the potential mark, based on some posts I have seen. It's not even a fallacious attack on the idea, I don't mind the idea at all in fact, I was just making commentary on the "why don't we have this, it's much better" part of Appogee's comment. Better contextually to him in the right now, but there would surely be haters of the idea too.

[PhoenixFire55]

As I've already said somewhere else I do believe this entire c-bills/xp/whatever compensation fallout is created for the purpose of distracting everyone from the real issue, i.e. fubar skill tree itself.

[qS Sachiel]

Pr8Dator2, on 30 April 2017 - 11:45 PM, said:

So, all these QQ over the dragon huh? Seems to be the only name I keep seeing in this pew pew so far... I don't see that many people playing the dragon now either so whats the problem? Name me mechs that people are actually using now that is going to be hit by this please.

If you think IS is going to be hit by this, watch this video and tell me IS isn't getting HORRIFYING with this skill tree...

lol....
don't see dragon
ergo
dragon is unpopular?

i don't own a dragon, but i know they fall to bits due to new mechs. The post you quoted chose the real but stark comparison between a brand new and OTT killer (KDK) and one of the original and now mostly useless mechs (DRG).
I understand power creep, evolution of the weapons systems etc... will make any older model obselete, however i feel you're missing the crux of the problem here.

If PGI is set on putting the dragon in the dust, then take it out of the mechstore.

Other mechs i feel have missed out are the firestarter, the victor... i never see the kintaro, quickdraw or wolverine any more, and wonder if they've died a similar death. I'd also list some clan mechs generally post-bonus loss, but people would laugh too much and choke on their own tongues and we don't want that.

[SmokedJag]

PhoenixFire55, on 02 May 2017 - 01:51 AM, said:

As I've already said somewhere else I do believe this entire c-bills/xp/whatever compensation fallout is created for the purpose of distracting everyone from the real issue, i.e. fubar skill tree itself.

Conspiracy is not necessary when mass stupidity suffices. People want to rant and rave about compensation and drown out skill tree feedback, well, GG?

PGI has correctly deduced that a lot of the "feedback" they are getting is bad faith or unrepresentative. Trolls, people who want nothing to change, people who object to a rebalance nerf on principle, people whining about money. When feedback *has* actually focused on substantive issues they've changed things in the tree (cost, progression compensation, separate weapons trees, now weapons tree gating).

[PhoenixFire55]

SmokedJag, on 02 May 2017 - 03:05 AM, said:

When feedback *has* actually focused on substantive issues they've changed things in the tree (cost, progression compensation, separate weapons trees, now weapons tree gating).

I'm too lazy to add a "Wait you are serious. Let me laugh even harder" meme here.

Its like, your government suddenly tells you that starting next month taxes are going to increase by 300%. People go out on the streets and riot, two weeks later they tell you how they "listened to your feedback" and now taxes are going to increase by 280% instead.