20 replies to this topic

[Wildstreak]

So after noting some recent Skill Tree vids up, I watched this one.

And it makes me wonder.

1 - Unmastered Mechs will be new and recent players. Even at lower Tiers they may play against fully Mastered opponents, some people comment about trying to lower their Tier intentionally. Seems most of the time Unmastered Mechs lose meaning a bad NPE.

2 - Based on #1 and people thinking Tier and PSR are a XP bar, should we push for a new system or the return of ELO?

3 - What about all those Unmastered Trial Mechs?

4 - How this affects Faction Play since there is no way to prevent recent/new players from bringing Unmastered Mechs into it.

Edited by Wildstreak, 02 May 2017 - 06:10 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Beats me. PGI is gonna PGI.

I'll give ya real world data though after this boondoggle goes live, since I have no intention of node-ing out any of the mechs I care about (admittedly not many thanks to the nerfs) until new tech drops, so that means at least a month of play sans nodes. Ought to be fun. I'll let ya know how it turns out.

Underhive...I'm coming home!

[MechaBattler]

Shouldn't the comparison be unmastered current system versus unmastered skill tree? Because either way we have that thing of unskilled mechs fighting mastered mechs.

Edited by MechaBattler, 01 May 2017 - 04:02 PM.

[oldradagast]

The current skill system, for its laughable simplicity as a placeholder, is literally the one thing a new player cannot screw up in MWO. They can buy bad mechs and run bad builds, but they can level up their mech just the same as a veteran without needing to consult various 3rd party websites for meta builds. And now that will be taken away, furthering the gap between new players and experienced ones.

The only good thing is with how played out this game is and how little marketing (read "none") PGI has done on it over the years, there probably won't be too many new players run over by these stupid changes. It's a shame, really, since Battletech has a rich background and lots of things to draw people in, but PGI never capitalized on any of that. Just another squandered opportunity.

[Alex Morgaine]

Bud Crue, on 01 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

Beats me. PGI is gonna PGI.

I'll give ya real world data though after this boondoggle goes live, since I have no intention of node-ing out any of the mechs I care about (admittedly not many thanks to the nerfs) until new tech drops, so that means at least a month of play sans nodes. Ought to be fun. I'll let ya know how it turns out.

Underhive...I'm coming home!

We got milk and cookies :3

Yay back to T4

[Scyther]

So you mean basically the NPE will be affected by the same thing the NPE in every single PVP game ever has been affected by? That being that players with higher game skills or better gear can go 'seal clubbing' in the newbie pool at times.

Unless you propose a system where new players only play actually new players (which still doesn't eliminate skilled players from starting new accounts and winning on pure player skill), you're going to get that result.

Having PSR be an 'experience bar' (which it actually isn't, since it does in fact go down with poor matches) means 'better' players can't stay in the kiddie pool for too long. Unless they intentionally lower their tier by throwing matches. So the new players are now playing against a better player who is intentionally playing badly. Which is pretty much the same as playing against a new player.

Regardless, it's a separate issue from the Skill Tree. NPE is vitally important, but needs to be dealt with separately from Skill Tree issues.

Edited by MadBadger, 01 May 2017 - 05:54 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

MechaBattler, on 01 May 2017 - 04:01 PM, said:

Shouldn't the comparison be unmastered current system versus unmastered skill tree? Because either way we have that thing of unskilled mechs fighting mastered mechs.

As someone who does nothing buy cycle through Mechs for the expressed purpose of Mastering them all... the "new" system is worse the the current one, just like every other aspect. Being able to slap Radar Derp & Weapon Modules into a fresh mech is a big help that is now denied... I played a bunch of unskilled mechs in the PTS against Mastered ones, it was way rougher than currently.

[Bud Crue]

Alex Morgaine, on 01 May 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

We got milk and cookies :3

Yay back to T4

Took me forever to get through T3 and I'm not even half way through T2 (2 years of mostly low tier IS mechs...meh). I wonder if I stink it up enough If I can get back there (to T4) within a month? This is something worth working towards I think. I mean if I do poorly enough maybe the resulting "data" that I create for PGI's new baseline might get some of my crap mechs their quirks back. Worth a shot I suppose.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

There's an easy, easy solution to the performance gap for new players in trial 'Mechs: unlock the trial 'Mech skill trees. All of them. Let new players fiddle with the skill trees on trials to their hearts' content. That achieves two things. First, it eliminates the performance gap in the 'Mech, so that the only gaps are in player skill and build optimization. Second, it allows new players to get used to the skill tree mechanics before they buy their first 'Mech and proceed to waste cbills and XP on dozens of respecs.

If PGI doesn't want to do that, and since trial builds are locked I'd think trial trees would be too... the other solution is to hold a contest to come up with skill tree presets for all the trials, just as they do with new Champion builds.

One way or another, though, trials are going to need those skills. Player retention is going to plummet if PGI keeps unskilled trials through the Skill Tree drop.

[Johnny Z]

Wildstreak, on 01 May 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

So after noting some recent Skill Tree vids up, I watched this one.

And it makes me wonder.

1 - Unmastered Mechs will be new and recent players. Even at lower Tiers they may play against fully Mastered opponents, some people comment about trying to lower their Tier intentionally. Seems most of the time Unmastered Mechs lose meaning a bad NPE.

2 - Based on #1 and people thinking Tier and PSR are a XP bar, should we push for a new system or the return of ELO?

3 - What about all those Unmastered Trial Mechs?

4 - Something else I cannot remember right now, filler for when it comes back to me.

You know what? The PSR may have been put into the game in preparation for the skill tree. Or at least it was decided to do the PSR first.

MechWarrior Online PSR is the best match maker ever made.

[MechaBattler]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 01 May 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

As someone who does nothing buy cycle through Mechs for the expressed purpose of Mastering them all... the "new" system is worse the the current one, just like every other aspect. Being able to slap Radar Derp & Weapon Modules into a fresh mech is a big help that is now denied... I played a bunch of unskilled mechs in the PTS against Mastered ones, it was way rougher than currently.

That's a fair point. Of course it does nothing for new players.

[FallingAce]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 01 May 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

As someone who does nothing buy cycle through Mechs for the expressed purpose of Mastering them all... the "new" system is worse the the current one, just like every other aspect. Being able to slap Radar Derp & Weapon Modules into a fresh mech is a big help that is now denied... I played a bunch of unskilled mechs in the PTS against Mastered ones, it was way rougher than currently.

It's even worse than that for the new players. No longer will (non-cheapskate)veteran players be handicapped every time they buy a new mech. These vets will have 91 nodes unlocked from their first match in a new mech due to GSP.

[Wildstreak]

Added to OP:
4 - How this affects Faction Play since there is no way to prevent recent/new players from bringing Unmastered Mechs into it.

Johnny Z, on 01 May 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

You know what? The PSR may have been put into the game in preparation for the skill tree. Or at least it was decided to do the PSR first.

MechWarrior Online PSR is the best match maker ever made.

I see today some of the people complaining about PSR/Tiers are some of those who back when it was new praised it.
I go into matches and have heard complaints about Tier 1s playing against Tier 4s/5s.
The Steam playerbase alone has dropped since PSR/Tiers came out. Less people increases the chance of being matched against a broader Tier group.

[RussianWolf]

at this point I'd say its safe to say that PGI doesn't care about NPE. They have been warned since 2013 (maybe even into 2012). Even when I was new, I wasn't new since I played the older games. But I and others warned about the NPE for people that had never been exposed to the older games. We were able to at least get the Solo queue put in to stop the teams from beating up on them from the beginning. So it went from the 9th level of hell to about the 6th level.

Edited by RussianWolf, 02 May 2017 - 06:48 AM.

[TLBFestus]

Bud Crue, on 01 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

Beats me. PGI is gonna PGI.

I'll give ya real world data though after this boondoggle goes live, since I have no intention of node-ing out any of the mechs I care about (admittedly not many thanks to the nerfs) until new tech drops, so that means at least a month of play sans nodes. Ought to be fun. I'll let ya know how it turns out.

Underhive...I'm coming home!

You got that right. Why punch in all those nodes only for the new tech to come out and then be punished by having to PAY to respec?

I don't play very much these days, so I'll survive the beat downs until the tech is out and others have figured out the best node pathways for me.

[RussianWolf]

TLBFestus, on 02 May 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

You got that right. Why punch in all those nodes only for the new tech to come out and then be punished by having to PAY to respec?

I don't play very much these days, so I'll survive the beat downs until the tech is out and others have figured out the best node pathways for me.

Much like what happened with the clan release and the people that started second accounts for those. When CW came around they had an advantage over those that had a single account. Being able to switch back and forth between Clan and IS without a penalty.

[naterist]

Bud Crue, on 01 May 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

Took me forever to get through T3 and I'm not even half way through T2 (2 years of mostly low tier IS mechs...meh). I wonder if I stink it up enough If I can get back there (to T4) within a month? This is something worth working towards I think. I mean if I do poorly enough maybe the resulting "data" that I create for PGI's new baseline might get some of my crap mechs their quirks back. Worth a shot I suppose.

WE ARENT LOSING QUIRKS!!!! Sorry, continue hating, but lets hate for accurate reasons. Those quirks are now 'baseline stats' even weapon quirks it seems.

I contribute my hate of respec costs to the saltmines that are this thread.

[Jman5]

In a lot of ways it's not much different than what we have right now. A lot of new players have unskilled mechs, no modules, and no consumables.

Given the high costs of modules, consumables, and buying 3 mechs, I don't think it's certain the problem will be worse than it already is today.

[Alan Davion]

naterist, on 02 May 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

WE ARENT LOSING QUIRKS!!!! Sorry, continue hating, but lets hate for accurate reasons. Those quirks are now 'baseline stats' even weapon quirks it seems.

I contribute my hate of respec costs to the saltmines that are this thread.

Actually in a way we are losing quirks.

The quirks are being nerfed, and then those nerfed quirks are being baked into the baseline stats of the mechs, and the skill/quirk webs allow us to increase certain quirks on the mechs, but not to the level we used to have before this half-cocked skill/quirk web idea was brought up.

That means no more 50% quirks for mechs that needed them, like Warhammers and Marauders needing huge PPC quirks to make those weapons usable because just making PPCs viable on their own without quirks is somehow a forbidden idea.

PGI being PGI. Can't do anything that makes actual logical sense.

[Kaeb Odellas]

naterist, on 02 May 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

WE ARENT LOSING QUIRKS!!!! Sorry, continue hating, but lets hate for accurate reasons. Those quirks are now 'baseline stats' even weapon quirks it seems.

I contribute my hate of respec costs to the saltmines that are this thread.

Where are you seei g weapon quirks being baked into baseline stats?