34 replies to this topic

[Armored Yokai]

Introduced in 3059, Clan Star Adder developed the Heavy Lasers as a way of packing more punch into a relatively small package.All Heavy Lasers, however, build up a tremendous amount of heat and potentially interfere with a 'mech's sensors. The Heavy Large Laser receives a +1 to-hit modifier to reflect that.

"All Heavy Lasers"

Hit them with a Nerf bat like you did to my poor SLDF Gauss Rifles



Edited inclusion
Lore wise there's no indication of Gauss rifles requiring a charge mechanic
and when it comes to heavy lasers they have a problem with mech sensors because of the tremendous power they use
so in conclusion why not apply the gauss rifle's current logic into heavy lasers and just cut out the ghost heat?
I just don't like charge on a weapon I'm so used to using in the previous titles, but it really isn't difficult while the charge mechanic just stops you from using the weapon right away it is compensated by the gauss bullet travel which is very fast and nearly impossible to dodge...but then again entirely, this is all just balance because of units and a few others on an online game tend to abuse things and ruin things for the rest of players (Knock Down and Jumpjets as an Example)

Edited by Armored Yokai, 03 May 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[Rakshasa]

Armored Yokai, on 03 May 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

Introduced in 3059, Clan Star Adder developed the Heavy Lasers as a way of packing more punch into a relatively small package.All Heavy Lasers, however, build up a tremendous amount of heat and potentially interfere with a 'mech's sensors. The Heavy Large Laser receives a +1 to-hit modifier to reflect that.

"All Heavy Lasers"

Hit them with a Nerf bat like you did to my poor SLDF Gauss Rifles

Not sure how they plan to model the inaccuracy under the MWO aiming system, but Heavy Lasers already have a major problem baked in:



They're powerful, but they run boiling hot. A heavy medium laser runs nearly as hot as an IS large laser, and a heavy large laser generates 20% more heat than an ER PPC. With Ghost Heat too, things could get very hot very, very quickly for Heavy Laser-equipped mechs.

That and managing charge-up for banks of lasers instead of one or two gauss rifles might get way too complicated.

All that being said, I'd say wait and see. They might turn out fine. If they don't, then we can start pondering fixes having actually seen them in action.

Edited by Rakshasa, 03 May 2017 - 08:27 AM.

[Spheroid]

I don't think that is necessary. Heavy lasers are simply heat for damage vs. heat for range. The existing ghost heat mechanic and burn time duration are sufficient for balancing.

[jjm1]

If PPCs don't require charge then neither should heavy lasers.

logical circuit complete

[Hit the Deck]

Someone suggested that firing Heavy Lasers disrupts your HUD by a certain amount. Perhaps less of PPC buzz but more like temporary dimming of the HUD.

This seems to be gimmicky but could simulate the to hit penalty somewhat (depends on how dim and how long the dimming effect of the HUD would be). In before someone suggests that it could be countered by marking the center of your monitor.

But it could look bad so the idea should be scrapped.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 03 May 2017 - 08:37 AM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Burn time also, as mentioned, helps balance it, given they do double damage of IS standard lasers at IS standard laser ranges we could see burn times for like a Heavy ML be 1.35 (so 1.5x ML burn time, which is only .2 seconds longer than a cERML which does 7 vs the 10 damage of a HML).

So in theory they could do:

Heavy Small Laser: 1.125s (I feel this is probably a little long for 6 damage, but, using a formula, but, it is for half a ton and one crit, has to have a drawback beyond just the heat, otherwise you just boat them and heat sinks)
Heavy Medium Laser: 1.35s
Heavy Large Laser: 1.50s (due to cERLL is already 1.5s, of course you could have them be the same time, no real harm there as far as I can see since different range, 450m with a much stiffer fall of due to clan laser makes it not sync well with cERLL anyways.

These times mean you need a while to get the full damage of the laser burn on target which in of itself means the target has time to get out of the way, equal to a +1 accuracy penalty, just like say low velocity is a +1 accuracy penalty, or bad spread, or how high velocity would be a -1 or -2.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Hit the Deck, on 03 May 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Someone suggested that firing Heavy Lasers disrupts your HUD by a certain amount. Perhaps less of PPC buzz but more like temporary dimming of the HUD.

This seems to be gimmicky but could simulate the to hit penalty somewhat (depends on how dim and how long the dimming effect of the HUD would be). In before someone suggests that it could be countered by marking the center of your monitor.

But it could look bad so the idea should be scrapped.

Maybe...

After firing a Heavy class laser, you automatically drop target? A minor inconvenience for some, more of an impact for others.

[Ghogiel]

Rakshasa, on 03 May 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:

Not sure how they plan to model the inaccuracy under the MWO aiming system,

Beam duration.

If they are worse than CERLL duration they won't be good for obvious reasons. I suppose with the duration skill tree nodes, that might bring some of them to useable levels, but if everything else can get 0.6 - 0.7 sec burns with the skill tree then their small niche is probably making energy builds on mechs with few energy hard points. All depends on the final beam durations we can get.

[Bishop Steiner]

Armored Yokai, on 03 May 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

Introduced in 3059, Clan Star Adder developed the Heavy Lasers as a way of packing more punch into a relatively small package.All Heavy Lasers, however, build up a tremendous amount of heat and potentially interfere with a 'mech's sensors. The Heavy Large Laser receives a +1 to-hit modifier to reflect that.

"All Heavy Lasers"

Hit them with a Nerf bat like you did to my poor SLDF Gauss Rifles

Good way to make them useless.

almost unusable high heat. Burn duration, and now you want charge up...why cuz you are bad at using Gauss with the charge? (Cuz, um, Clan Gauss has it too, not jsut your poor SLDF goose).

Ridiculous Heat and GH thresholds will control HLaser Spam plenty enough. Just because you were happy with Gauss be the only useful ballistics that obsoleted all other doesn't mean it was good for the game.

As for Accuracy? Easy to emulate other ways, from light CoF (like with MGs), to the more likely (and worse choice) of long burn duration making it hard to keep on target.

This sounds more like being upset over Goose Waffles not being EZmode (well, uber ezmode) than it is about genuine balance or even lore concerns.

[Mystere]

Hit the Deck, on 03 May 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Someone suggested that firing Heavy Lasers disrupts your HUD by a certain amount. Perhaps less of PPC buzz but more like temporary dimming of the HUD.

This seems to be gimmicky but could simulate the to hit penalty somewhat (depends on how dim and how long the dimming effect of the HUD would be). In before someone suggests that it could be countered by marking the center of your monitor.

But it could look bad so the idea should be scrapped.

Just as an FYI, some monitors have that built in.

Jay Leon Hart, on 03 May 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

Maybe...

After firing a Heavy class laser, you automatically drop target? A minor inconvenience for some, more of an impact for others.

Direct fire weapons will not suffer any ill effect. But, if we had a "convergence on lock" system ...

Edited by Mystere, 03 May 2017 - 09:06 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Of course, somewhere in their "file cabinet" PGI actually has the mechanism already coded to work the HLasers accuracy issue.... back in Closed Beta when you were over 75% or so heat (I don't recall the exact point it started) your HUD would fuzz, your reticle would flicker in and out, and you couldn't gain or hold locks.

High GH multiplier, combined with low number usable before GH (2,3,4 for Large, Medium, Small, probably, though 1, 3 and 4 might also work) and have about 3 seconds of HUD fuzz kick in (or maybe 1 second for Slasers, 2 for mediums, 3 for large), maybe extend it in a similar way to GH...so fire 2 H-LL get the HUD fuzzed up for 5-6 seconds, instead...and there you go.

[LordNothing]

lasers arent ppfld. they have burn. they dont need charge too.

[Hit the Deck]

Beam duration is the obvious answer but you should also take into account that overly long beam duration is unfun thus it's bad for gameplay.

[Jay Leon Hart]

LordNothing, on 03 May 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

lasers arent ppfld. they have burn. they dont need charge too.

Until they add the Bombast... I miss that thing

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Jay Leon Hart, on 03 May 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

Until they add the Bombast... I miss that thing

Sadly PGI has an aversion to experimental weapons so no Bombast, no LAC's, no X-Pulse. Even though we are getting Heavy and Light MG's which would be experimental at this time for IS... IS can't get too many new toys, even with what IS got people whined about all the catch up weapons and the stopgap weapons and equipment. It was pretty sad to see.

[ChapeL]

How about something like this: Heavy Lasers have a charge up time. Once charged up you can hold that charge indefinately until that perfect shot or whatever but while you do, not only does the laser's heat affect you ( meaning the wapon's heat is applied before your fire ) but your heat level cannot go down until you release the shot.

Example:

Timber Wolf pre charges two heavy lasers while at zero heat. Both lasers are now charged and the mech now sits at 50% heat (forget the numbers for now). Our pilot goes off to chase some jenner in the corner of the map for two minutes, fully intent on burning a hole through it with those two Heavy lasers. In the mean time he takes pot shots at another target with a pair of mediums. Now his heat sits at 65% and is holding there when he stumbles on his quarry, the Jenner, afk behind a rock and unleashes his charged up lasers into it. Now while he's busy typing "lolz git gud" on general chat, his heat guage starts to go down again.

[LordNothing]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 03 May 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

Sadly PGI has an aversion to experimental weapons so no Bombast, no LAC's, no X-Pulse. Even though we are getting Heavy and Light MG's which would be experimental at this time for IS... IS can't get too many new toys, even with what IS got people whined about all the catch up weapons and the stopgap weapons and equipment. It was pretty sad to see.

i want more primitive tech. we did get rocket launchers, but rifle and primitive armor would really add to it. we could have pirate battles in custom games. same goes for solaris, there are a number of oddball solaris guns that would be amusing.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 May 2017 - 09:34 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

LordNothing, on 03 May 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

i want more primitive tech. we did get rocket launchers, but rifle and primitive armor would really add to it. we could have pirate battles in custom games. same goes for solaris, there are a number of oddball solaris guns that would be amusing.

Magshot please!

[Moonlight Grimoire]

LordNothing, on 03 May 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

i want more primitive tech. we did get rocket launchers, but rifle and primitive armor would really add to it. we could have pirate battles in custom games. same goes for Solaris, there are a number of oddball Solaris guns that would be amusing.

Rifles would be rather nice, imo, primitive armor eh? Sure, but I mean 2/3rds as good as standard armor for half the cost? Without R&R there isn't a place for that imo, outside of like events or custom games. But, yeah oddball Solaris tech would be nice, fluff out stuff. Sure it won't be used often, that's the point of Solaris tech, create some cool niche builds and more uncertainty on the battlefield with IS mechs having weird *** weapons.

Jay Leon Hart, on 03 May 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Magshot please!

As of 3067 technically not a Solaris weapon anymore, but, was limited sales to Solaris stables from 61-66. Would be a nice little gun. 2 crits, 2 damage, half a ton for 50 shots per ton (so 25 shots for 1 tons 3 crit investment for 50 damage potential) with optimal range to 270m, max range of 540m. Ain't an AC/2, but, I would be happy to slot these in the place of MG's on a number of mechs to plink.

[Humpday]

Don't think so, those aren't PP, they are going to be hot as heck, and you still have to contend with burn time, so you'll likely be splashing damage. Charge is a good mechanic to deter snapshots. You'll have to stare down the enemy with HLL without overheating, and an inability to shield while on target.

I'll vote no.