94 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

I just shoot stealth in face. Boom! not so stealthy now.

[Tordin]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 03 May 2017 - 12:12 PM, said:

MW4 also invented the Mad Cat MK2 out of thin air. Also, MW4 had the Bombast laser, an experimental weapon, and the ability to pack mechs with explosive charges to you could make your mech into a suicide bomb. You could also mount long tom cannons too. Can't do any of that in MWO. I mean PGI could add Primitive armor too, as it is standard equipment in this time frame, 2/3rds the armor/weight of standard armor, aka WORSE protection per tonnage of standard armor. But, we aren't getting it. Hell, the Bombast Laser looks like another MW4 creation as the books it is from were printed in 2008 and 2011, which are also the same books that have Reactive and Reflective armor, which you know kind of point to Reactive and Reflective armor being a MW4 creation and weren't given rules until much later on.

Mhm. They ( M$, actually did something nice for a change, imagine that...) also invented a new look for the Conjurer, named the Hellhound. They need to have them separate if brought to MWO, fans of the true Conjurers look would not be happy. That one I like alot, same for the Mad Dog mk II with chin (again make a new lineup of MDD mk II with configs, separate from the MDD we alredyhave) turret. That one also got canonised.

MW4.. ah memories, remember the Assault and Bombast laser melting things as much as cooking yourself in an instant. You think heavy lasers and PPC cook you? Hah!

Edited by Tordin, 03 May 2017 - 01:55 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Khobai, on 03 May 2017 - 01:59 AM, said:

what pgi needs to do is completely remove stealth from ecm and then give stealth to stealth armor instead but with no more stealth bubble (only the mech with stealth armor gets stealth). Then stealth would be fine.

And if stealth is limited only to stealth armor. And the stealth bubble is removed. The need to counter it is also significantly reduced. You only need 1-2 counters then instead of as many as we have now.



TAG should not counter stealth either. PGI has equipment doing things it should NEVER do. Like ECM giving stealth and TAG countering stealth. Not what that equipment is for.

What TAG should do is guide in ARROW IV strikes and indirect LRMs. Direct LRMs should get a huge direct fire but indirect fire should be nerfed and require TAG/NARC.

The way ARROWIV should work is that it can only be launched at a TAGGED target. The ARROWIV will then fly to the last known location where the target was TAGGED. So a moving target would have to be constantly TAGGED for the ARROWIV to accurately hit it.

Also instead of granting stealth, ECM should get some new abilities, like being able to cut off players from sharing sensor information with their team, and it should get a new mode, unlockable through the skill nodes, called Ghost Mode that creates fake radar signatures. There should also be a decoy probe consumable that you can plant into the ground that does the same thing. And there should also be a seismic probe consumable that you can plant into the ground and detect seismic activity in its radius. Because we need more consumables.

it is incredibly frustrating that they are making stealth armor some kindve super stealth on top of ECM which has been broken since its introduction. They need to shut that **** down and go with my plan instead.

Well actually TAG should not effect LRM's at all, as it was only effective with semi-guided LRM's, another chain of the LRM family like Swarm or Thunder LRM's. It does make some sense though that they gave TAG the ability to effect LRM's though, as we do not have Arrow IV in the game (which does kinda suck, if nothing else it would be a cool consumable to replace arty or air strike to a mech that carries a TAG).

[Tincan Nightmare]

razenWing, on 03 May 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

Flat Heat Tax and Activation Timer are the two "wacky PGI solutions" that I speak of in the original post.

I can almost guarantee you that had I not made this thread, those 2 would not be present on launch day. (And only if they bother to read this, might it get implemented)

But let me make it abundantly clear...

THERE ARE NO INDICATION THAT THE ABOVE TWO SCENARIO IS THE DIRECTION PGI WAS DOING.

Cause, I can easily make up shat too.

12 slots? That's no big deal if you can spread them to arms and legs. (like the dynamic slots right now) You talk about 3 tons of space saving? Jesus man, turn off artemis and boom... there it is. You really think 3 tons is a big deal? Get real. It's a convenience, not a make or break, especially not for the trade-off of permanent target disruption.

And no, I definitely agree that "paying attention" if can be a solution, then don't b7tch about ECM now. ECM is consider a god armor for a reason. Stealth armor would be like Super Saiyan 9000 Super God armor. So don't give me that trash argument like "oh, I can handle it, so it must be okay" or "I am going definitely going to abuse it later, so I ain't saying sh7t now."

But for the sake of argument, I do hope you guys are right, that somehow PGI thought of inventing a Heat Tax and Activation Timer. Cause if not, in 2 months, I will take down all the names, necro this thread, and rub it in all your faces.

------------------

PS Additional thought, the whole concept of TAG is lazy AF in the first place. TAG shouldn't break anything nor function the way it is now. Ever watching war movies, what does TAG even do? It paints a target for missiles in flight. Meaning, missiles lock onto the actual painted location, NOT THE TARGET itself. There should be no missile warning, but TAG has to be painted on a target until missile arrival. But clearly, that's not the mechanics we have here.

It's a minute distinction, but a distinction with implications none the less.

Don't want to get in a flame war with you, but Stealth always generated more heat, even in the TT. So neither PGI or you came up with this solution as it was always a part of the equipment. Kudos I guess to PGI for actually implementing the tech (and its limitations) right from its source material.

And there is the indication that PGI is going in this direction as they announced it during the CW tech stream where they stated Stealth would not allow you to dissipate heat and may even constantly build heat. Now it is possible that they could change their stance (being PGI), but so far we have a clear indication of where they are going.

12 slots not being a big deal? Not really, that is until it comes into competition with Endo, FF, weapons, ammo, equipment, and DHS (the IS 3 slot version). Then it becomes a pretty big deal on how to balance what you want to sacrifice for something that only works slightly better than ECM by itself.

I totally agree that TAG has been changed completely from its source abilities, but since we don't have Arrow IV homing missiles or semi-guided LRMs in the game what else could it do? Be a pretty flashlight or laser pointer? Having it break ECM and give a bonus to LRM's are the only reason it even is in the game.

Also TAG isn't creating a missile warning, the missiles closing on your mech that TAG is guiding is generating the missile warning .

[Khobai]

Quote

Well actually TAG should not effect LRM's at all

But some things need to be changed from battletech for game reasons

TAG should affect LRMs in MWO

And they need to add ARROWIV. That should be a top priority. They should get their best guy on it. Post Haste.

Edited by Khobai, 04 May 2017 - 02:47 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

If it is employed logically it wouldn't be.

If stealth armor needed a lots of energy to power therefore reducing mech speed, and if engines are not de-coupled therefore limiting agility; I wouldn't mind it.

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 02 May 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

Meta guys will not be abusing it because Stealth armor is IS only and there are no good ECM IS mechs that can make use of it. And additional 12 slots is prohibitive in many cases, because those IS mechs need at least 14 slots for Endo.



Pirate's Bane, Spider-5D, and Raven-3L are not that scary though. And they can't afford the slots, because Light mechs use both Endo and Ferro.

No good IS mechs that can make use of ECM you say?

LCT-PB

SDR-5D

RVN-3L

ASN-27

CDA-3M

GRF-2N

ARC-T

CTF-0XP

STK-3Fb

CP-11-P

AS7-D-DC

Yep...there sure are not any mechs that can make quite viable builds with 12 slots left to make use of Ghost Armor...man, I sure am glad that those are a figment of people's imaginations...*whew* thought we were all doomed for a minute.

(Of course, as with all things, some of those mechs are quite a bit better than others, but the point stands, lots of mechs can use ghost armor with little effort quite effectively, and some of those mechs are good mechs)

[El Bandito]

Gyrok, on 04 May 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

No good IS mechs that can make use of ECM you say?

LCT-PB

SDR-5D

RVN-3L

ASN-27

CDA-3M

GRF-2N

ARC-T

CTF-0XP

STK-3Fb

CP-11-P

AS7-D-DC

Yep...there sure are not any mechs that can make quite viable builds with 12 slots left to make use of Ghost Armor...man, I sure am glad that those are a figment of people's imaginations...*whew* thought we were all doomed for a minute.

(Of course, as with all things, some of those mechs are quite a bit better than others, but the point stands, lots of mechs can use ghost armor with little effort quite effectively, and some of those mechs are good mechs)

Most of those builds are laughable and does not benefit from the Stealth armor any more than ECM alone (long range builds especially). It is also laughable that you are concerned with any of those mechs. Doubly so because Clanners are overblowing the effectiveness of Stealth armor out of proportion, without looking seriously at its downsides.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 May 2017 - 07:49 PM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Gyrok, on 04 May 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

No good IS mechs that can make use of ECM you say?

LCT-PB

SDR-5D

RVN-3L

ASN-27

CDA-3M

GRF-2N

ARC-T

CTF-0XP

STK-3Fb

CP-11-P

AS7-D-DC

Yep...there sure are not any mechs that can make quite viable builds with 12 slots left to make use of Ghost Armor...man, I sure am glad that those are a figment of people's imaginations...*whew* thought we were all doomed for a minute.

(Of course, as with all things, some of those mechs are quite a bit better than others, but the point stands, lots of mechs can use ghost armor with little effort quite effectively, and some of those mechs are good mechs)

Atlas, Archer, Griffin, and Stalker builds are invalid, you need 2 slots free in each arm, each leg, and each side torso. It is a hard rule from TT that PGI will keep over to MWO. Most of those builds are, once again, losing cooling, speed, dps, or access to endo to take stealth armor which is a bad trade. Given what we know about it, stealth armor, thanks to PGI's way of handling ECM won't do much other than hid you from thermal (given how many people love polar and frozen city you still are going to be pretty visible as a black-grey walking thing against all the white past 600m). Even as a positional tool, hiding from thermal, no locks when mechs get under a certain range unlike current ECM it will get shut off when the fighting starts due to the extra heat it will cause or the other method PGI is thinking of doing and making you not cool. Even with a macro flicking it on and off you want maximum efficiency in a fight.

It isn't a huge edge, people will skip it for endo 9/10 times, more engine for more DHS in engine, bigger guns, more ammo, ect. As useful as being impossible to be targeted is, degraded cooling or unable to cool as well as losing the ability to get targeting information yourself (something the dev's talked about) even if flicking on and off is a pretty big disadvantage. Again, tool for getting into position, even then, not really that useful because ECM still does that job just fine so long as you keep the enemy outside of ECM bubble range.

As it is, Guardian ECM has too many abilities wrapped up in it to make Stealth Armor worth it. If certain abilities were migrated to Stealth Armor only then Stealth Armor would have a use. Abilities like no triangle over a player with ECM should go to Stealth Armor only, ECM players should give a triangle, maybe at a delayed rate (so you have to have visual on them for a period for your mech's computer to figure out if friend or foe due to electronic warfare) as well as delayed paperdoll. ECM should nuke all spread reductions for missile weapons against mechs, even SRMs+A under the ECM bubble (give ECM a new ability but a canon one, which was a counter to Artemis). Stealth Armor then becomes Jesus armor making you VANISH from Sensors instead of being delayed from pick up (which allows ECM lights to just slip from cover to cover and be sneaky on both sides but IS can use Stealth Armor to be more brazen). This makes Stealth Armor also basically work as modern Guardian ECM does, plus breaking any missile lock that an enemy has when activated (including streak, because lol why not, they still likely will hit due to how fast they fly, you get the warning around the time they hit).

[Novakaine]

Rampage, on 02 May 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

The only Mechs that can use it are Mechs equipped with ECM which are already pretty much immune to LRMs and you have to bring BAP or CAP to overcome with streaks. The Stealth Armor can also be defeated by NARC and TAG.

Narc and tag huh?

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 04 May 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

Most of those builds are laughable and does not benefit from the Stealth armor any more than ECM alone (long range builds especially). It is also laughable that you are concerned with any of those mechs. Doubly so because Clanners are overblowing the effectiveness of Stealth armor out of proportion, without looking seriously at its downsides.

Lots of things have downsides more than their usefulness....like TCs for example...at this point a flat waste of tonnage/crits for DHS or ammo or what have you...but loads of people still take them. TCs are also 1/2 as useful as something like stealth armor.

[El Bandito]

Gyrok, on 04 May 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

Lots of things have downsides more than their usefulness....like TCs for example...at this point a flat waste of tonnage/crits for DHS or ammo or what have you...but loads of people still take them. TCs are also 1/2 as useful as something like stealth armor.

They are two very different type of equipment, with very different requirements, therefore saying one is half as useful as the other is not definitive. Judging from all the downsides to Stealth armor, such as increased possiblity of friendly-fire incident, and its meager additional bonuses (mostly because PGI's version of ECM already does most of its functions, therefore making it redundant), not to mention heat penalty, I would not be surprised if SA will never become popular.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 May 2017 - 11:14 PM.

[Lily from animove]

razenWing, on 02 May 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

This guy knows what I am talking about. Got your macro ready, FupDup?




Wrong. Cause there are legitimate hard counter to ECM that goes beyond visual cues. There are ZERO counter to stealth armor. Go read the release note.

wheres that release note?

Edited by Lily from animove, 04 May 2017 - 11:41 PM.

[Moadebe]

Honestly I think you are worried about something that we don't even have the full details of yet. Sit back, relax, and wait till we know more before getting all worked up honestly.

[Alan Davion]

Gyrok, on 04 May 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

Lots of things have downsides more than their usefulness....like TCs for example...at this point a flat waste of tonnage/crits for DHS or ammo or what have you...but loads of people still take them. TCs are also 1/2 as useful as something like stealth armor.

TCs are a waste if you bring anything above a TC1 you mean. Clan weapons already have a ridiculous enough advantage when it comes to range, so all they need is a TC1.

IS TCs on the other hand might be worth investing in the larger and heavier versions to get the increased range bonuses.

Might be mind you, as we don't yet know the size and/or weight, and the exact bonuses of IS TCs yet do we?