70 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Ultimax, on 05 May 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

The bigger, effectively unsolvable problem, with the CTF is how it's arm mounted weaponry is.

Below the hand Dakka...


It's rough, MurderMets

[oldradagast]

Cataphracts are utter trash that new hitboxes will not fix. And I say that as somebody who's first mech in the game was a Cataphract, and I still have a few, rusting away.

A few variants have 2 high energy hardpoints, which is literally about the only redeeming quality in this chassis. Several of them lack even that basic feature, and all are burdened with easily targeted and destroyed hitboxes, flat, wide torsos, and horribly mounted arm weapons that are clearly designed for digging trenches vs. actually shooting anything.

Nothing is going to save the Cataphract as this point.

Bud Crue, on 05 May 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

Yes, the Phract will benefit from LFE, but I don't think it will be a game changer because again...its CT is going to draw fire no matter what it seems. Oh well.

Unfortunately, the Phacts won't even benefit much from the LFE because of that need to put weapons in the right torso. 1 AC 20 in there precludes anything bigger than a large pulse laser OR 2 slots from a LFE. You can't run an AC20 and anything else in the right torso, leaving you only with the left torso high energy mount as usable. Or, you have to go down to a smaller autocannon, further reducing the firepower on an already bad mech.

Cataphracts are hosed no matter what these days.

Edited by oldradagast, 05 May 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

My point being, Cataphracts were viable as normal, non-meta mechs, back when that hitbox design was viable. That hitbox design hasn't been viable since 2015, around the time when the Cataphracts began to die out.

Hitboxes have less to do with it than you seem to think, well, at least the arrangement of where ST and CT start/end. It has more to do with more, better, grounded options. I mean even without quirks, the BK is a better energy boat than the 1X ever was because despite the low mounts it can spread damage insanely well (1X with 5LL used to be a beautiful mech). The Grasshopper despite having the same large CT issue has much better mounts. We didn't have the Marauder/Warhammer which can do mixed energy/ballistics better than the Cataphract ever could.

It has less to do with the Cataphract not having viable hitboxes and just being not as viable compared to the competition that were added recently. Right now, the smaller side torsos are a boon because it means XLs are less risky and those are necessary for IS mechs to compete with the Clan side of things. I mean, having a large CT never stopped the Grasshopper nor did it stop the Banshee before the BLR-2C became a thing.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2017 - 09:38 AM.

[Ultimax]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

A maximum size XL hasn't proven more viable, however, in a 3L. It still dies the same way, CT.

All it takes is receiving a single volley or seeing a CTF's loadout to know whether it is a STD engine or an XL engine build.

In which case, once players know it's XL - they go for the STs (because they have a bit less armor).

So if you are still dying by CT, that means the mech is XL friendly - and in this game it is better to be XL friendly than not.

Now, you might have a case to make when it comes to LFEs - but Quicksilver is right, mechs like the GRH (another 70T) likely have even worse hitboxes than the CTF does. (And the only reason the GRH is still used is because 5x ERLLAS has a niche use in some very specific - but not all - comp matches).

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

STD and XL engine cataphracts lived a long time back in the day, in fact they were the meta for a long time, but we delivered significantly less damage for greater amounts of heat back then.

I don't see that as the case, not in any enormous capacity.

The primary top build right now is Gauss + PPCs so yes there is a little bit more splash damage from Clan versions with CERPPCs but you are still looking at roughly a similar alpha vs. old poptart meta.

On top of that, Gauss has been nerfed since then - with a longer CD, so overall the DPS is lower (and most clan mechs being used for this loadout do not have CD quirks).

Only the KDK brings a signifcantly larger alpha.

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

That time has passed thanks to quirks. 22 extra front armor, netting a total of 104 front armor and 44 structure doesn't keep the Cataphract from dying in under 5 seconds of direct fire from two targets while moving in a diagonal strafing path at 78.7 kph.

Meanwhile a few years back, 72 armor and 44 structure back then on the front torso could sustain fire for almost 11 seconds from two similar targets (while going as slow as 48 kph) while moving directly at the enemy, and against a single enemy and without using torso twist, you had the time to pick up a cup, fill it with mountain dew, drink said mountain dew, open up chat, send several messages describing what you literally just did, followed by "It's been fun but it's time to kill you now," and actually kill the enemy.

You're pulling numbers out of nowhere, with no names of who did the test and no names of shooters from "back then".

So basically, you have a very fancy sounding anecdote that doesn't really tell us anything.

Edited by Ultimax, 05 May 2017 - 09:56 AM.

[stealthraccoon]

I've just learned to accept my Cataphracts as just really big Jenners...

[Koniving]

Continuing on the meta and non-meta stuff...

The Cataphract 3D was nothing special, it had jumpjets and an energy-ballistic combination close together. That was it. It could take and abuse piss poor design that levels had and still have with very loose geometric hitboxes around buildings and other large mesh objects within world.

You know, this aspect.
You could then abuse it by using it to see where your enemies are and will be while being completely invincible, then pop up and shoot and fall back down. This is further amplified (made worse) by the fact that we have 3.2 to 3.7 times Earth's gravity (or more specifically Earth's gravity's acceleration rate) for falling, meaning that while very large, very objects should have a tremendous resistance to movement and change in direction to which the mech should remain suspended in the air for a number of seconds before it would begin to descend, allowing us to instantly kill that meta-abusing son of a yelping dog in the sky and Crush that Meta before it even stopped being a joke... PGI just has a myriad of bad design choices facilitating so many of its balancing issues as if to encourage them.

But I digress, even in the face of that, Cataphracts were viable even at speeds of 48 kph as weapon mongering platforms of death and destruction at long range (where the hitboxes were exceptionally viable). This age has passed years ago, and when mechs got hitboxes reinvented to shift away from this age the Cataphract has been left behind.

(Yes, a shift away from that age where now even the Jenner is now truly viable once we finally took away the GIANT alligator CT in favor of STs climbing up the sides, allowing it to exist by way of torso twist and movement (where before it was just this easy to kill because you had CT available to target from 360 degrees Z-axis rotation [spin like a jet fighter and no matter what someonthing on the ground could hit your CT from literally any angle) ]and could hit the front CT from a horizontal perspective even when offset from the rear by a measily13 degrees in either direction at any distance beyond 30 meters, while the Jenner was looking away..)

Meanwhile, Cataphracts could be run like this.



And be incredibly viable back in the day.

What changed? Quirks, better hit detection, insanely fast firing rates, a lot less "fire and wait" and more "constant fire".. Also back then most mechs had bad giant CT hitboxes. Now very few mechs suffer this, as such the playing field is not balanced and the giant CT is tenable anymore.

Take a moment to note that Catpahract 4X goes 39.3 kph... and wasn't only viable but it managed to save the day and the match!

[Mole]

This guy still works just fine for me...

CTF-0XP

[Koniving]

Ultimax, on 05 May 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

All it takes is receiving a single volley or seeing a CTF's loadout to know whether it is a STD engine or an XL engine build.

In which case, once players know it's XL - they go for the STs (because they have a bit less armor).

So if you are still dying by CT, that means the mech is XL friendly - and in this game it is better to be XL friendly than not.

Now, you might have a case to make when it comes to LFEs - but Quicksilver is right, mechs like the GRH (another 70T) likely have even worse hitboxes than the CTF does. (And the only reason the GRH is still used is because 5x ERLLAS has a niche use in some very specific - but not all - comp matches).

I just got through explaining, I'm dying by CT. Using the XL 340, full speed and good firepower, they didn't touch my STs. No damage anywhere else. Whether they know it's the XL or STD, it is CT only.

Exclusively. Any damage I receive elsewhere is an exception derived by my attempts to protect the CT.

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I don't see that as the case, not in any enormous capacity.

The primary top build right now is Gauss + PPCs so yes there is a little bit more splash damage from Clan versions with CERPPCs but you are still looking at roughly a similar alpha vs. old poptart meta.

On top of that, Gauss has been nerfed since then - with a longer CD, so overall the DPS is lower (and most clan mechs being used for this loadout do not have CD quirks).

Only the KDK brings a signifcantly larger alpha.

More splash... I could see how that applies to the Clans but not to the IS.
I'm also not using Gauss Rifles. I'm using wonderful overpowered things called AC/5s, AC/10s, and AC/5 + two PPCs is a LOT more effective as a meta build, so you're kinda...outdated. Like really outdated. Come back from 2014?

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You're pulling numbers out of nowhere, with no names of who did the test and no names of shooters from "back then".

So basically, you have a very fancy sounding anecdote that doesn't really tell us anything.

I have videos from 2012 through 2016. I can compare results of Cataphracts I use today to Cataphracts I used back then in similar situations because you can pretty much mention a situation, and I can pull up a video saying "Here's X mech in that situation under these conditions and this was the result." and shove a video in your face. (There is, in fact, a Koniving meme in which I shove a video in your face as a way of explaining anything including aliens.... for some strange reason.)

In fact I have no idea where the Aliens explanation came from other than maybe that weird balding guy that likes to blame every conspiracy on Aliens. Merge that meme with mine and...oh...

...That's where that came from. Got it.

[Koniving]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

Hitboxes have less to do with it than you seem to think, well, at least the arrangement of where ST and CT start/end. It has more to do with more, better, grounded options. I mean even without quirks, the BK is a better energy boat than the 1X ever was because despite the low mounts it can spread damage insanely well (1X with 5LL used to be a beautiful mech). The Grasshopper despite having the same large CT issue has much better mounts. We didn't have the Marauder/Warhammer which can do mixed energy/ballistics better than the Cataphract ever could.

It has less to do with the Cataphract not having viable hitboxes and just being not as viable compared to the competition that were added recently. Right now, the smaller side torsos are a boon because it means XLs are less risky and those are necessary for IS mechs to compete with the Clan side of things. I mean, having a large CT never stopped the Grasshopper nor did it stop the Banshee before the BLR-2C became a thing.

This I don't deny. In fact I believe this to be the best statement of the day. There are much better mechs out there that are much more viable for their own reasons. However, my issue isn't the viability in the Cataphract's offensive capabilities; this has in fact only improved compared to the past.

But, and this is the caveat I had been trying to explain when I mentioned the AC/2 originally in the first post. Everything else has improved as well. Everything except the Cataphract's hitboxes. As I said, at 600 meters the Cataphract's CT hitbox is 2 entire reticules wide. Meaning you cannot miss and you need the torso twist of a 340 engine to even have a chance at getting an enemy to hit your ST and the arms are just too low against enemies whose weapons are mounted too high to be able to protect that gigantic center torso.

You are correct, the Cataphract is not viable.
However, its only chance has everything to do with the hitboxes... because we will not see a complete art redux. It is, in fact, a Cataphract and it will never be anything else. So it does in fact have every single thing to do with the hitboxes. There is nothing else they can do without changing what the mech is, unless they shrink it.

I don't think they will shrink it. So what is left, when the mech's only problem is how big the hitboxes are? Another useless weapon quirk?

A good design has hitboxes that can split and spread damage.

The Clan threat doesn't thrive on PPFLD, it thrives on PPDOT. Meaning the only real chance you have is to spread that 72 damage alpha strike across your body to preserve your very right to exist.

Those tiny STs are not a boon, they are a hinderence. They have the complete opposite effect that you are describing because no matter what you will be shot dead in the CT, and a maximum size engine with maximum engine-coupled torso twist is insufficient because your side torsos are NOT large enough to spread damage. The meta concept of Armor Sharing cannot occur in this mech and that is the very reason it is not viable in the current state of the game.

For comparison, take a Raven 4X before quirks, channel the armor forward, and watch that thing tank torso shots against lasers better than assault mechs. Why? Interlacing hitboxes and easy to spread damage.

Take the Marauders, the "ultimate meta mechs" as someone once put it which have completely made other mechs obsolete. What do they have? Gigantic side torsos that are perfectly viable for XL engines. How come? Easy, the amount of space between ST, CT, and ST is very small, so you can very rapidly change an enemy's laser attack from your weak ST to the CT to another ST and if you wanted you could even through your cockpit hitbox or an arm into the mix to spread the damage even further...

This... simply isn't possible on the Cataphract. The hitbox is too big, the distance between the side torsos and the center torso is wider than the Cataphract's arm-pods are from the side.

Mole, on 05 May 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

This guy still works just fine for me...

CTF-0XP

ECM helps it, I'll give it a try. Truth be told the 0XP has been about the only one that has been the exception to the rapid death syndrome of the rest, so long as I had an ECM.

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 10:32 AM.

[Ultimax]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

I just got through explaining, I'm dying by CT. Using the XL 340, full speed and good firepower, they didn't touch my STs. No damage anywhere else. Whether they know it's the XL or STD, it is CT only.

If they didn't touch your STs that means they had to go through more CT armor.

If you expect to take heaps of damage across both STs, then you are expecting your primary opponents to be sub T3 potatos.

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

I'm using wonderful overpowered things called AC/5s, AC/10s, and AC/5 + two PPCs is a LOT more effective as a meta build, so you're kinda...outdated. Like really outdated. Come back from 2014?

LOL, dude, you are living in your own little world here.

You might try watching some competitive matches - and see what those players are running in the queues as well.

It is very clearly not AC 5s, 10s or 2x AC 5s + PPCs. For starters that would require IS heavy/assault mechs and those are not the primary mechs being used.

Only the Mauler sees some use in that respect, but it's usage is very very limited.

Quote

I have videos from 2012 through 2016. I can compare results of Cataphracts I use today to Cataphracts I used back then in similar situations because you can pretty much mention a situation, and I can pull up a video saying "Here's X mech in that situation under these conditions and this was the result." and shove a video in your face.

They might be fine for entertainment but no one cares about your matches as evidence, you are not nearly as important as you think you are.

Edited by Ultimax, 05 May 2017 - 10:30 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

However, its only chance has everything to do with the hitboxes...

Its only chance then is a drop in the bucket of problems the Cataphract suffers from, the only real hope for the Cataphract is quirks.

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

Those tiny STs are not a boon, they are a hinderence. They have the complete opposite effect that you are describing because no matter what you will be shot dead in the CT, and a maximum size engine with maximum engine-coupled torso twist is insufficient because your side torsos are NOT large enough to spread damage.

I don't think you get it, mechs like the Zeus or the Marauder where you can isolate a single side are easier to finish than a mech which has a larger CT.

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

Take the Marauders, the "ultimate meta mechs" as someone once put it which have completely made other mechs obsolete.

Who said that? Don't get me wrong they are fairly strong, but they are not perfectly XL viable either because they are VERY susceptible to flanks. Marauder IIC is a different story because you know, Clan XL which makes it a beast actually. Honestly without quirks or the LFE the Warhammer is the ultimate meta mech of the IS heavies with the Grasshopper and BK nipping on its heels.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2017 - 10:57 AM.

[FupDup]

Ultimax, on 05 May 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

Making it's STs larger to make CT smaller would only buff STD engine Cataphract builds - none of which are remotely relevant in the game.

It's better off having smaller STs so it can run XL and actually have some guns.


Welcome to balance by bad, old, artwork.


The bigger, effectively unsolvable problem, with the CTF is how it's arm mounted weaponry is.

Well, the LFE should hopefully help the IS with the eternal problem of "Do we want a big CT so it can XL or big ST's so it's not a walking CT?"

Hopefully...

[Koniving]

Ultimax, on 05 May 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

If they didn't touch your STs that means they had to go through more CT armor.

If you expect to take heaps of damage across both STs, then you are expecting your primary opponents to be sub T3 potatos.

Okay, so they had to go through, and I quote, anywhere from 86 to 104 CT armor plus 44 structure.

If I had larger ST hitboxes, they would have to go through roughly half of to 3/4ths of all the following to kill me: 86 to 104 CT armor plus 65 ST armor ... in addition to the full amount of 65 ST armor and 30 structure.

What takes longer?
130 damage to 148 damage...

Or 170.5 to 221.75 damage?

Wow, BIGGER SIDE TORSOS MEANS MORE LIFE!
Because it's easier to spread damage and use the concept of Armor Sharing on your own body! OMG, it's called a META CONCEPT of LIVING LONGER via VIABLE TORSO TWISTING! You know, that thing that makes Marauders (of both sides), Ebon Jaguars and Timber Wolves last a HELL of a lot longer than anything comparable.

Insert applause, your mind has thus just been blown.

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LOL, dude, you are living in your own little world here.

You might try watching some competitive matches - and see what those players are running in the queues as well.

It is very clearly not AC 5s, 10s or 2x AC 5s + PPCs. For starters that would require IS heavy/assault mechs and those are not the primary mechs being used.

Those players are idiots. Consider the following.
A Gauss Rifle, even pre-nerf, takes forever to use again and is unreliable unless you use a macro.
Even if you desync the firing times to fire the PPCs first, the PPC and Gauss will never reliable hit the same body part as one goes almost twice as fast as the other.

AC/5s and PPCs go almost the same speed, on many ballistically quirked mechs, the AC/5s go at an identical spread meaning every single hit is 25 damage and can be repeated much faster. The AC/5 can also be used to pepper damage more frequently, and can net a total damage of 35 in 9 seconds unquirked while a Gauss Rifle manages a whopping 30 in 9.5 seconds BEFORE THE NERF, unquirked. Quirked to 50% after the nerf, the Gauss Rifle manages 45 damage in 9.75 seconds. In which case just take a UAC/5 and blow that Gauss Rifle piece of **** out of the water!

Your concept of meta is a joke. That weapon combination is a joke! I've spent years developing anti-meta mechs that people say are heresy and yet they work. Not only do they work but they consistently laugh in the face of meta with joke weapons and still blast meta out of the ******* water -- so imagine for a second what I could do if I were serious about meta.

I was for about a month after I heard that laughable thing had come up, and I took a single AC/5 and two PPCs... and I ******* wrecked face. Gauss is too unreliable, too slow, and isn't ready to fire on call. It also has an almost identical range.

Of course, I have to admit I have the ability to land many shots on the same body part if I wanted to. You know, we call it "Skill." No, not the kind you unlock.


But taking a Cataphract and being "Serious" instead of ******* around... still doesn't make it viable. The hitboxes are bad, the space between them is huge, and no amount of torso twisting at maximum engine with maximum coupled torso twist and 400% faster torso twist (Pretty Baby classic anybody) is not enough because the CT is TOO GOD DAMN BIG and the space is too god damn far apart to spread damage.

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They might be fine for entertainment but no one cares about your matches as evidence, you are not nearly as important as you think you are.

Congratulations, you just discovered how significant any individual person actually is, including the two of us.

[Koniving]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

Its only chance then is a drop in the bucket of problems the Cataphract suffers from, the only real hope for the Cataphract is quirks.

If quirks were to give the Cataphract a chance, this thread wouldn't exist.

Even if you gave it 50% higher structure and armor... it wouldn't last as long as I could make it last if it had BIGGER STs as explained in my previous post to another quack that thinks he's pretty important. >.>

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I don't think you get it, mechs like the Zeus or the Marauder where you can isolate a single side are easier to finish than a mech which has a larger CT.

I agree, but... That is because you can isolate that side torso.
Just like with a larger CT you can isolate that larger CT!

Therein rests the problem, hallelujah! You finally get it (sort of.)

You can isolate the CT from 600 meters away with a ******* JOYSTICK using a single LB-10X and NEVER FAIL TO HIT THE CT!

You can see that damn thing from outer space using a god damn inverted telescope (which btw makes big **** harder to see because that's a damn microscope!) while standing 10 meters across the room away from the space station window while looking in the opposite direction into a mirror! It is that goddamn big!! (and I can't stop laughing at this absolutely preposterous exaggeration, seriously read it out loud...)

If you were to take a slow Jenner of today, engine decoupled torso twist and give it the speed of an Urbanmech and attack it with two medium lasers...
Then take the Jenner, slap on the original hitboxes and give it the same speed and engine decoupled torso twist and perform the same identical attack... which would live longer?
In both cases, the laser user is attacking dead-center-mass of the mech with an aimbot mentality. Assume both Jenners are identically sized and big.

The current Jenner

Or the old Jenner?

Why?

If you said the current Jenner, congratulations. Also, if you're wondering why it is because the hitboxes are closer and thus the act of torso twisting changes the Jenner from having 30 to 42 front armor plus or minus the rare instances of getting the enemy to accidentally hit your STs for maybe 4 armor to having 30+20+20 to 42+30+30 front armor due to armor sharing.

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Who said that?

Anyone who compared a Marauder IIC to a Warhawk. Such as this quack.
Example:

(Even Kanajashi admits, the Marauder IIC is an even bigger barn with bigger STs... but none of that matters... Sadly Kanajashi falls short of explaining that it doesn't really matter because the Warhawk has a huge CT and a lot of space between the torsos where the Marauder IIC does not have so much space. Bigger doesn't matter if the space between them, to shift fire away from that which is weak to that which is strong is very small requiring very little movement.)

...Except Nightmare's Gaming Channel.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 05 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

Well, the LFE should hopefully help the IS with the eternal problem of "Do we want a big CT so it can XL or big ST's so it's not a walking CT?"

Hopefully...

Thank you. I accidentally dropped that aspect, as it happens the old system of tiny STs for XL is made further unreliable as the new standard will probably be hitting LF rather than XL In which case, there's no point in using an LFE if your STs are that tiny and you're gonna die by CT anyway,

In fact the main goto for dealing enemies using LF will be to go to the CT and destroy it, which to be perfectly honest has been my main goto for killing Clan mechs since day one. If a player is going after a Clan ST, that player deserves what they get as in many cases if the STs have 64 armor + 36 structure and the CT has 100 armor + 54 structure, which is less?
154 (Blow the CT) or 200 (blow both STs)? That's not even factoring in torso twisting, and since Marauders IICs have to do very little of it head on... that guy could stretch his torsos to last for well over 250 damage before you'd really destroy any of them.

Everyone, seriously, if a giant CT was good, then why isn't the Awesome the most popular mech in the game?

Why was the Dragon ever considered bad?

How come the Jenner keeps getting progressively large side torsos -- and progressively getting better and better in the game?

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 11:32 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

Anyone who compared a Marauder IIC to a Warhawk. Such as this quack.

Don't bring Clan mechs into this conversation because things would be significantly different without access to the Clan XL which makes the Marauder IIC actually viable.

[Koniving]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Don't bring Clan mechs into this conversation because things would be significantly different without access to the Clan XL which makes the Marauder IIC actually viable.

LFE.

[Koniving]

It's not a different conversation, it's the same one.

Also you can compare the IS Marauder and get the same results.

Giant STs, modest CT.
Lots of Hitbox Interlacing so that even a vertical strike against the ST splits from ST 1 to CT and back to ST 1 with every single footstep that it makes.

Armor. Sharing.

It's a huge tactical concept in the meta game in which mechs share armor so that everyone lives longer. Hitboxes share armor so that YOU live longer.

They cannot share armor if you cannot spread the damage.
You cannot spread the damage if the hitbox has too much space before the next hitbox, aka your CT is too damn big and the STs are nowhere to be found!

[Nemesis Duck]

Those bikini strap improvements look good. I mean it makes sense that a hit to that area would affect the legs more often, not that the strap looks better being pulled tight and narrow between those sexy mech legs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

LFE.

LFE =/= CXL

One affords much more tonnage to play with which definitely changes the conversation.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2017 - 11:40 AM.