70 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

LFE =/= CXL

One affords much more tonnage to play with which definitely changes the conversation.

Tonnage is not the conversation. It is the Viability of Hitboxes that is the conversation.

Tonnage not and never will be a factor in whether or not a mech's hitboxes are viable, tangible, and useful.

Also you had high praise for the Black Knight and its superior nature, correct?

My ******* god, those huge side torsos don't really matter because this mech embodies the very concept I was talking about:

Armor. Sharing.

You could aim at the CT, shoot the CT, and a very tiny twist will spread it out to a Different hitbox. In fact, while adjusting to hit the same CT hitbox again, you may accidentally hit the other ST hitbox, thereby spreading your damage across 3 hitboxes.

And whether Clan XL or IS LFE, the mechanic is the same, just focusing a single ST hitbox is No Longer Enough or even Viably the best option; it is an inferior option and so most will go for the CT.

Therefore, a Huge CT is BAD.

Awesome Syndrome was Never a good thing, Ever.

It is about to become an even worse thing to have, and it is time for the relics and the people who actually think a tiny hitbox ST hitbox is good to get with the times, we have ditched the old 4 lb 1980s cell phone in favor of smart phones weighing less than a quarter of a lb, and trying to sell me a battery that would last me less than 20 minutes is not a good trade off to use that ancient trash (because said battery in that ancient cell phone might last a day provided it isn't shaken and suddenly explodes).

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 11:56 AM.

[Revis Volek]

dat head hitbox....


so huge.

[Mole]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

ECM helps it, I'll give it a try. Truth be told the 0XP has been about the only one that has been the exception to the rapid death syndrome of the rest, so long as I had an ECM.

I'm not sure it's the ECM at all. I had similar results with this guy: CTF-1X

In the end though I went with the ECM variant because it can pack ECM and AMS while also being more heat efficient at the sacrifice of one medium laser, taking it's alpha potential down a measly 5 points from 45 to 40 in exchange for an array of other gear that adds up to being more valuable than a single medium laser.

Edited by Mole, 05 May 2017 - 12:05 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

Tonnage is not the conversation. It is the Viability of Hitboxes that is the conversation.

Sure, but you are also talking about viability which goes beyond hitboxes. Saying LFE/hitbox fixes will save the Cataphract is pretty naive because it misses many of which really hurt the Cataphract. Again I will say the Grasshopper and Banshee don't suffer as much in viability despite having large CTs as well, the question you have to figure out is what makes them so different. King Crab I forgot about as well, which is honestly a bigger CT offender than even the Cataphract (and to make matters worse is a 100 ton assault). The Cent, Treb, and Cicada also have notoriously large CT hitboxes.

I'm not against them creeping the sides in a bit (CT should still be somewhat large because it always had an issue with XL checking), but I don't pretend to think it will be a magical cure all for the Cataphract.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2017 - 12:16 PM.

[Koniving]

Revis Volek, on 05 May 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

dat head hitbox....


so huge.

I know, right?

I'm going to run the Cataphract with 1 front and 1 rear armor on each ST... big as standard engine.

And we'll see if I can manage to get a single person to hit my STs. And if after a few rounds of that I can't get them to do it, then I will put in an XL, keep it the same, and announce " I HAVE A ******* XL ENGINE, KILL ME IF YOU DARE!" and we'll see if a single person even manages to kill me through means other than the CT.

----

I'm off to collect data right now, be back in about an hour with the first batch of results.

But prior to that... Lets look at the Jenner again.

Back in the day of the old Jenner hitbox...

I suggested some hitbox concepts to improve its survivability.
These were the ideas, uploaded November 30th 2014.
Note the following color codes:
Yellow, Head.
Blue / Green, ST (either or.)
Orange, CT.
Red, Rear CT.
Pinkish/Purplish found on rear torso: Rear ST.
Tan, arms.
Pinkish/purpleish on legs... legs.

Concept 1:





Concept 2:


The concept takes from "Interlacing hitboxes", something the Raven is very known for (sch that its hitboxes for the legs are 1.4 times larger than the legs themselves as the mech tanks TOO GOOD if you funnel the armor from the rear to the front.

Raven old.
Raven Current


Note: MWO's changes.


Note the easy to kill prior to those changes from the original design: More specifically how every shot hits the CT.

Also, the ever viable Firestarter that got enlarged and is still a heck of a tank though not quite as good before also had huge STs...

It also has interlacing hitboxes (sides of head overtop of side torsos split damage between ST and CT as it runs close to you).

In fact, every mech considered to be good has two common factors:
1) Big STS.
2) Interlacing hitboxes.

Kodiak anyone?
Half Life 3 confirmed, armor sharing makes the meta.
Hitboxes that are close together so that damage is easily spread makes for Armor Sharing.
Large, but close together, hitboxes allow for easily spread damage.
The Cataphract needs large, but close together, ST hitboxes which interlace with the CT in order to facilitate itself into the meta.

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 12:19 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Note the easy to kill prior to those changes from the original design: More specifically how every shot hits the CT.

Note how many Jenner pilots weren't necessarily happy about the change because it meant you were easier to kill through the side.

[Mole]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

Note how many Jenner pilots weren't necessarily happy about the change because it meant you were easier to kill through the side.

As a light pilot who has and still does pilot Jenners, PGI's changes didn't make me feel any more survivable than I already was. Jenners require an XL. So now instead of my CT exploding like a party popper, my ST does with the same result: instant death. Fact of the matter is the way the Jenner is designed is just bad. And it also happens to be probably the 'mech that suffered the most from the rescale. It's body is so fat and its arms so tiny that just about every shot it takes is going into the CT or ST no matter how you angle it. Jenners used to be pretty good at knife-fighting. But now, you get too close in a Jenner you get pretty much instantly one-shot since the rescale. It just barely eeks by an existence now as a somewhat decent medium range poker if you can succesfully avoid the return fire. Same story with the Jenner IIC. While the rescale was certainly PGI's fault, the weird body design of the Jenner is not. And that's really the 'mech has; really poor geometry.

Edited by Mole, 05 May 2017 - 12:21 PM.

[Ultimax]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

Those players are idiots. Consider the following.
A Gauss Rifle, even pre-nerf, takes forever to use again and is unreliable unless you use a macro.

Yes, all of the top tier players of this game are idiots - and Konniving is a genius thinks that Gauss isn't viable or reliable unless you use a macro and that AC 5s + PPCs is the meta build du jour, even though no one is running IS Heavies or Assaults for that in competitive play.

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

Your concept of meta is a joke.

My concept of the meta is borne from playing actually competitive organized matches against players who are either around the same level or in many cases clearly superior to me.

Yours seems to be farmed from the potato tier of this game, no clue if it's solo or group - but it's irrelevant either way.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mole, on 05 May 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

As a light pilot who has and still does pilot Jenners, PGI's changes didn't make me feel any more survivable than I already was. Jenners require an XL. So now instead of my CT exploding like a party popper, my ST does with the same result: instant death.

That's my point, in some cases it made you less survivable because taking an AC40 to the CT you would've survived previously, now you would probably be a thread away from death if not dead (due to crits and such).

[Koniving]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

Note how many Jenner pilots weren't necessarily happy about the change because it meant you were easier to kill through the side.

Here's the thing...

Not a single thread complains about it, but we've had those changes in game for over 2 years.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

That's my point, in some cases it made you less survivable because taking an AC40 to the CT you would've survived previously, now you would probably be a thread away from death if not dead (due to crits and such).

Youd' survive previously by taking 40 damage, meaning you had no armor left over.
Now, you can take (potentially) 20 damage to the ST and 20 to CT from that same attack given the right angle, and still have armor on both.

Provided you had the skill to do so and the right conditions.

There's also the fact that while the armor does interlace (more so now than before), it doesn't interlace to the extent that I had conceptualized. Meaning said player can go "I want to hit the ST" and consistently do so with ease. In my case, "I want to hit the ST" and they would have to choose either to go for an upper or lower point, and if they missed either the upper or lower point they would actually end up hitting the CT unintentionally, meaning the viable targeting space to hit where want is actually smaller and thus harder, allowing you to potentially live longer than even the current setup.

There's also the plethora of quirks allowing us to shoot even faster for the same damage. It all stacks up. Play a game without quirks, 12 vs 12, in private. Use a Jenner. You will last a HELL of a lot longer than you might remember back in 2013 after HSR, and be able to run your XL just fine... because nobody is gonna be delivering 120 damage from a single gun in 10 seconds with a +25 to +50% faster firing quirk tacked on top of it.

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 12:40 PM.

[Koniving]

Side note: Due to quirks (Thanks PGI, you quirkaholic ********), I can only manage to go down to 15 front armor. Oh well... We'll try it anyway.

So, loadout not withstanding, I'll be changing it each time I launch... This is the armor allocation I will be using.


And whether or not I am using an XL engine which will vary, I will announce that I am.

Time to nab some results.

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 12:45 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

Here's the thing...

Not a single thread complains about it, but we've had those changes in game for over 2 years.

And??? Doesn't mean it was never an issue. A lot of the people that weren't happy about it, were comp Jenner players (meaning forum exposure is minimal if at all).

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

Youd' survive previously by taking 40 damage, meaning you had no armor left over.
Now, you can take (potentially) 20 damage to the ST and 20 to CT from that same attack given the right angle, and still have armor on both.

Accept this isn't humanoid, it would only spread if they hit you while face staring, otherwise the Jenner's new hitboxes share the same issue the Marauder and Stalker have (very easy to hit the side torso from the side profile).

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

Play a game without quirks, 12 vs 12, in private. Use a Jenner. You will last a HELL of a lot longer

You'll only last longer if you play against other crappy mechs that rely on quirks

Without quirks the Jenner just dies even faster against things like the Kodiak, Night Gyr and Hunchback IIC which have ZERO quirks.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2017 - 01:01 PM.

[Koniving]

So I announced myself with the following:

"ATTENTION ENEMY FORCE: I have an XL, I have no ST armor and I am better than you. You should kill me by the ST if you can."
When someone said they thought I was bluffing, I pointed out this thread, the goal of this thread, and that I had 109 CT armor, and 15 ST armor due to quirks, and that nobody could kill me by the ST.

On my first encounter I face-rushed three mechs, and just so you know my (surviving) ST was already stripped by a stray Gauss aimed at somebody else.

And just so you know, my 15 armor + 30 structure ST (which was not full armor when I rushed) and my 109 armor + 44 structure CT (which was full) were destroyed at the same time.

Seconds after I took this screenshot, I flipped back to see "We tried for your ST."

[Koniving]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

And??? Doesn't mean it was never an issue. A lot of the people that weren't happy about it, were comp Jenner players (meaning forum exposure is minimal if at all).

Okay dude, I don't know if you're as young and gullible as you seem, but you're on the MWO Mercs Forum. It doesn't matter how tiny, pointless, or otherwise inconsequential an issue is you are on the forum where everyone complains about everything regardless of if it is good or bad for the game in the long haul. There is no such thing as a change in this game without a thread covering it and why it's bad...even if it is good.

And yet there are no threads about Jenner changes being bad. Tin foil hat time!

But seriously if people thought it was bad, we'd be drowning in it. Problem is most people didn't even know it happened! Haha!

Quote

Except this isn't humanoid, it would only spread if they hit you while face staring, otherwise the Jenner's new hitboxes share the same issue the Marauder and Stalker have (very easy to hit the side torso from the side profile).

Okay, so you don't let them see yoru side torso. Easy isn't it? You go 97 to 150 something, and you have torso twist of nearly 160 degrees or possibly greater! You can almost shoot behind you. It's a non-existent problem unless you're truly incompetent as a pilot!

Quote

You'll only last longer if you play against other crappy mechs that rely on quirks

Without quirks the Jenner just dies even faster against things like the Kodiak, Night Gyr and Hunchback IIC which have ZERO quirks.

Actually that's the thing.
A single, GIANT hitbox with a single pool of armor and structure, like the Jenner's CT of 44 armor and 22 structure... means that they can hit one BIG area about equal to the size of three limosines side by side mounted on a trailer attached to a school bus broadsided by two semi-trucks that all have a single combined health of 66...

is a hell of a lot easier to kill with Clan weapons than IS weapons....

than a myriad of 3 interlacing boxes that allow you to use a total pool of 162 HP.

And you do not seem to understand this concept.

In fact, because of the multiple interlacing hitboxes, yes it is possible that you might die faster against IS weapons... but you will live longer against Clan cannons and energy weapons.

Said Jenner, quirks or no quirks, is gonna die faster to IS weapons with the interlacing hitboxes. If he had just the single CT hitbox for that huge alligator torso, he'd die faster to the superior DPS of Clan weapons MUCH faster than he could die to IS weaponry.

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 01:18 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

Okay dude, I don't know if you're as young and gullible as you seem, but you're on the MWO Mercs Forum. It doesn't matter how tiny, pointless, or otherwise inconsequential an issue is you are on the forum where everyone complains about everything regardless of if it is good or bad for the game in the long haul.

Except you don't seem to understand how much contempt many comp players have for the forums because of this very reason. There is a reason this is called the brown sea. Many of them don't even bother to voice their opinions, even on Outreach balance threads are sparse because most of them can't be bothered to have those conversations. They complain, accept their face, and move on.

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

But seriously if people thought it was bad, we'd be drowning in it.

No because honestly the Jenner, much like the Cataphract, suffers from far more problems.

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

Okay, so you don't let them see yoru side torso. Easy isn't it?

The only way to hide that side torso is to run another direction, or give them your rear torso because that side torso is visible both from the front and side profile. Running another direction isn't always an option.

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

Actually that's the thing.
A single, GIANT hitbox with a single pool of armor and structure, like the Jenner's CT of 44 armor and 22 structure... means that they can hit one BIG area about equal to the size of three limosines side by side mounted on a trailer attached to a school bus broadsided by two semi-trucks that all have a single combined health of 66...

Sure, it means you will die sooner UNLESS you take a massive PPFLD strike to your side torsos in which case you are dead sooner, and that is the risk most lights don't like to take.

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

than a myriad of 3 interlacing boxes that allow you to use a total pool of 162 HP.

And you do not seem to understand this concept.

And what you don't seem to understand is the interlacing boxes are only useful if none of it can be isolated well. For humanoid mechs like the BK, this works beautifully, the thing is still one of the tankiest heavies because of how easy it is to spread and rotate damage and because the structure bonus it does have mean even nasty hits can be somewhat hidden. The same is NOT true for mechs like the Jenner or Cicada which suffer from easily isolated torso sections depending on what angle you are looking at and unlike the Marauder IIC and Stalker which have similar profiles, face staring isn't the great idea because hiding massive hits is harder in a light when one puts you an inch from death.

[Tarogato]

Funny the complaint about CTF having too big of a CT, I've always killed them via XL myself. Maybe I should reconsider. But I can't remember the last time I saw one die by CT.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tarogato, on 05 May 2017 - 02:22 PM, said:

Funny the complaint about CTF having too big of a CT, I've always killed them via XL myself. Maybe I should reconsider. But I can't remember the last time I saw one die by CT.

I felt the same, but whatever, apparently I'm crazy.

[Bud Crue]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

So I announced myself with the following:

"ATTENTION ENEMY FORCE: I have an XL, I have no ST armor and I am better than you. You should kill me by the ST if you can."
When someone said they thought I was bluffing, I pointed out this thread, the goal of this thread, and that I had 109 CT armor, and 15 ST armor due to quirks, and that nobody could kill me by the ST.

On my first encounter I face-rushed three mechs, and just so you know my (surviving) ST was already stripped by a stray Gauss aimed at somebody else.

And just so you know, my 15 armor + 30 structure ST (which was not full armor when I rushed) and my 109 armor + 44 structure CT (which was full) were destroyed at the same time.

Seconds after I took this screenshot, I flipped back to see "We tried for your ST."

Ok, that is just odd.

I play Phracts ALOT...I mean more than any other mech other than Quickdraws. A lot.

In my std build 0xps, my RT seems to disappear with the wind. No matter how much I twist, I lose that thing almost immediately sometimes. So while I admit I die almost always from CT loss, my RT nearly always seems to fall off first. No issues with the RT taking hits.

As to my XL builds...I admit they die far more frequently to CT loss than ST loss, but it isn't for lack of them taking damage. Of late I have had several matches where I lose my RT weapons in my Illyas or 3Ds from crits (while retaining my arms). The point being, the ST's take hits just fine.

In any case, what you are had happen...that's just weird anyway you look at it.

[Tarogato]

I don't think it could be fixed with hitboxes anyways. The problem is geometry. It's just so prohibitively wide...

Some of its art:








and how PGI ruined its chances at being a viable mech:






To be fair, the TT mini is actually arguably wider than the MWO model:




But at least it has more buff at the shoulder, so the arms would contribute better shielding. Still, being that wide is just no good for an FPS. Maybe it needs to be made thicker front to back so that it is volumetrically larger and can be scaled down in size.

[Bud Crue]

Tarogato, on 05 May 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

I don't think it could be fixed with hitboxes anyways. The problem is geometry. It's just so prohibitively wide...
...

Yes. Like I said up above, assuming they are not willing to remodel it, I think the best thing they can do for it is to give it god-tier twist to go with the armor buffs. Just my 2 c-bills.