279 replies to this topic

[Zuesacoatl]

So let me preface a bit, I am mostly a Clan pilot, and a lore fanatic, I played TT when it first hit the shelves, I still have the original box, and the original box when it was renamed to BattleTech lol. I have been a staunch advocate of keeping IS XL lore specific, BUT...... After day one of the Tuk event as an IS surrat, I have come to find the limitations of the IS XL, and how unbalanced it makes the two factions, glaringly obvious. I think it needs to be addressed with a change to the mechanic to move it closer to clan XLs. I know that the new LFE will follow clan XL design, but that will still leave the XL as being far too inferior to the clans in a PVP based game, and LFE just does not address the problem near enough, it will be a band-aid at best.

Now I do not think it has to be a one to one conversion, but the fact that you know you will lose an ST in any given match, it prevents you from taking that team gimping piece of equipment, which pushes the imbalance into Clan favor because you cannot carry the full compliment of weapons for your mech to bring the balance between factions closer to par.

Keep the clan weapons and is weapons as is, with minor balance changes of course, it keeps the flavor of the factions different enough to satisfy lore junkies like me, but make the IS XL able to lose a torso. Add 50%-60% speed reduction with a slightly higher heat penalty than clan xl. induce something that makes the IS XL inferior to the clans, but make it match the ability to not die when one ST is taken out. I played a few scout matches today with an xl, Most pilots are smart enough to recognize a certain loadout requires an XL check, and boom, spectating. The IS is losing to the clans at 90% in big part to this one major imbalance.

To sum up TL:DR
The IS XL is far inferior from the get go, being heavier, larger, and more prone to dmg behind the weaker IS armor/ton protection. Bringing it inline with ST destruction to the clans would not make IS mechs OP compared to clans, it will just make them less inferior to them. Increase IS penalties over clans for ST destruction, but for petes sake, bring XLs into balance among the factions..

[Chiasson Brinker]

What you're suggesting would nullify and render obsolete the LFE before it even becomes available as an option in July.

[MischiefSC]

Aidan Kell, on 06 May 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

What you're suggesting would nullify and render obsolete the LFE before it even becomes available as an option in July.

You mean because it's flat out inferior to CXL?

Huh.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Aidan Kell, on 06 May 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

What you're suggesting would nullify and render obsolete the LFE before it even becomes available as an option in July.

So ignore the LFE exists - BOOM! Fixed.

[Zuesacoatl]

Aidan Kell, on 06 May 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

What you're suggesting would nullify and render obsolete the LFE before it even becomes available as an option in July.

Lets be honest, most pilots on the forums with a grain of knowledge in MWO has already stated that LFE is not going to fix the issue, and will be overlooked as is. LFE will still have its place, the same as std engines. LFE will allow for more or bigger torso mounted weapons with a trade off of more weight compared to the xl. the xl offers less space, but heavier weapons loadouts, and std gives you tank ability with no penalty upon loss of ST

[Sjorpha]

Why should ANY of the IS engines be inferior to Clan XL at all?

I have yet to see a coherent answer to that question.

Even suggestions like the OP still proposes that it should have higher penalties in addition to being larger, so worse than clan XL in 2 ways but not better in any way, how does that make any sense? If balance is the goal it should have lower penalties to compensate for the larger size.

[ScrapIron Prime]

No, thats the universe. IS has a tech gap, thats why the clans were always outnumbered. Not that they ever are here...

But at least you've learned that big IS mechs should never take XL... Plan accordingly.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 06 May 2017 - 06:43 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Sjorpha, on 06 May 2017 - 06:41 AM, said:

Why should ANY of the IS engines be inferior to Clan XL at all?

I have yet to see a coherent answer to that question.

Even suggestions like the OP still proposes that it should have higher penalties in addition to being larger, so worse than clan XL in 2 ways but not better in any way, how does that make any sense? If balance is the goal it should have lower penalties to compensate for the larger size.

The Terrible responses available are:

1. Because otherwise it would make existing inferior tech of STD engines obsolete.

2. Because the lore made a bad tabletop game that even in the tabletop turn based strategy game the OP Clan tech, numerous IS environment was determined to be crap hence the move to Dark Ages with 1 to 1 balance. We have to make the same bad game decisions made prior or we're not... doing it right I guess?

3. The truth is that people got used to the Single Player game experience and they feel the game is supposed to have balance broken in their favor so they can pretend it's their skill, not skewed game design, that gives them success. They have no interest in game balance because that would involve them having to compete on an even footing and they lack either the skill or the will to do so.

[Zuesacoatl]

ScrapIron Prime, on 06 May 2017 - 06:41 AM, said:

No, thats the universe. IS has a tech gap, thats why the clans were always outnumbered. Not that they ever are here...

But at least you've learned that big IS mechs should never take XL... Plan accordingly.

I knew that from the begining, but to try to compete with the clans in scouting with payloads, I tried to bring an XL on a couple mechs, and the smarter pilots who can pick out XL loadouts punished me for it. That is the biggest problem, a player should not feel punished for a choice of a piece of equipment, slightly inferior maybe, but never punished.

[Sjorpha]

MischiefSC, on 06 May 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

The Terrible responses available are:
1. Because otherwise it would make existing inferior tech of STD engines obsolete.

That argument is indeed terrible, standard engines are already obselete on the clan side so why would it be a bigger problem if they were obselete on the IS side?

If you want std engine to not be obselete, on either side, you can either nerf the clan XL to IS XL levels or buff the std to Clan XL levels of strength. But don't say it's ok for it to be obselete on the clan side but not ok on IS side because that is completely hypocritical.

The second argument is so bad it hardly deserves a response.

Edited by Sjorpha, 06 May 2017 - 06:57 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Sjorpha, on 06 May 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

That argument is indeed terrible, standard engines are already obselete on the clan side so why would it be a bigger problem if they were obselete on the IS side?

If you want std engine to not be obselete, on either side, you can either nerf the clan XL to IS XL levels or buff the std to Clan XL levels of strength. But don't say it's ok for it to be obselete on the clan side but not ok on IS side because that is completely hypocritical.

The second argument is so bad it hardly deserves a response.

I am of the opinion that all STD engines for IS or Clan should get buffs. Someone said more in engine heatsinks - maybe that plus a structure buff? Is SO survives side torso loss, slightly less penalty because it's bigger. LFE only a tiny penalty on ST loss because more tonnage. Maybe a small structure buff.

It could be done but then Clans wouldn't have an advantage and the game would be more balanced and you'd have reason to look at something other than biggest XL you can fit. Who would play a game like that?

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 06 May 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

I am of the opinion that all STD engines for IS or Clan should get buffs. Someone said more in engine heatsinks - maybe that plus a structure buff? Is SO survives side torso loss, slightly less penalty because it's bigger. LFE only a tiny penalty on ST loss because more tonnage. Maybe a small structure buff.

It could be done but then Clans wouldn't have an advantage and the game would be more balanced and you'd have reason to look at something other than biggest XL you can fit. Who would play a game like that?

Not wannabe Clams.

People like making excuses to keep their crutch. They just won't take it if they were forced to be handicapped (aka, playing IS in a pro-Clan meta).

Edited by Deathlike, 06 May 2017 - 07:10 AM.

[Hindenhoot]

ScrapIron Prime, on 06 May 2017 - 06:41 AM, said:

No, thats the universe. IS has a tech gap, thats why the clans were always outnumbered. Not that they ever are here...

Pretty much this, it's put PGI in a tough spot in terms of balancing the game since the day the clans were added.

The options are either give the IS more tonnage/players and invoke rage from the community or break away from the lore and invoke rage from the community and possible Battletech licence breaches(?).

Adding more players to one side just isn't feasible, just look at what a disconnect at the start of the round of any match does to the odds of winning. For their part though PGI have stayed reasonably close to the lore, much more than I would expect.

[Athom83]

Sjorpha, on 06 May 2017 - 06:41 AM, said:

Why should ANY of the IS engines be inferior to Clan XL at all?
I have yet to see a coherent answer to that question.

Not like the IS suffered centuries long technology stagnation and civil wars which led to a loss of a lot of technology and the means to produce them or anything... oh wait.

Sjorpha, on 06 May 2017 - 06:41 AM, said:

Even suggestions like the OP still proposes that it should have higher penalties in addition to being larger, so worse than clan XL in 2 ways but not better in any way, how does that make any sense? If balance is the goal it should have lower penalties to compensate for the larger size.

Um... the penalties are there to compensate for it being HALF THE WEIGHT. And the only reason its so heavy is because there needs to be more of the ultra-light reactor shielding to case in the reactor. If anything, the clan XL should get some more penalties. If we increase the power of anything it leads to powercreap. A possible penalty; If you lose a side torso with a cXL engine, you lose power supply for your weapons, decreasing rate of fire for all weapons, and range and damage for energy weapons.

Edited by Athom83, 06 May 2017 - 07:23 AM.

[Paigan]

Zuesacoatl, on 06 May 2017 - 06:08 AM, said:

[...]
Add 50%-60% speed reduction with a slightly higher heat penalty than clan xl.
[...]

I am playing purely clans and say this for months.

Let losing a C-XL ST give -40% speed and heat and IS -60%.
(or whatever actual numbers, I don't care, as long IS can stay alive and the Clan equipment has a lore-compatible tech advantage.)

New features like the LFE have to find a suitable niche then. That is no reason not to balance the existing stuff properly.

[Alan Davion]

Zuesacoatl, on 06 May 2017 - 06:08 AM, said:

it will be a band-aid at best.

You hit the nail on the head right here.

The whole game at this point is equivalent to a sucking chest would with half your head blown away.

I'd be willing to bet PGI knows just how broken their game is but it's just so far gone they can't fix the cause of the problems, they can only fix the problems themselves.

They might be able to stop the bleeding, but the patient is dead regardless.

[Khobai]

Quote

Why should ANY of the IS engines be inferior to Clan XL at all?
I have yet to see a coherent answer to that question.

1) IS suffered centuries of warfare and lost the infrastructure/technology to create anything on par with CXL

2) Comstar actively suppressed technological breakthroughs by assassinating scientists and blowing up labs

3) IS are supposed to have advantages over Clans that PGI have completely failed to include in their game (like C3 being IS only, but clans get C3 too for some dumb reason)

Edited by Khobai, 06 May 2017 - 07:36 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Athom83, on 06 May 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

Um... the penalties are there to compensate for it being HALF THE WEIGHT. And the only reason its so heavy is because there needs to be more of the ultra-light reactor shielding to case in the reactor. If anything, the clan XL should get some more penalties. If we increase the power of anything it leads to powercreap. A possible penalty; If you lose a side torso with a cXL engine, you lose power supply for your weapons, decreasing rate of fire for all weapons, and range and damage for energy weapons.

Then we come back to the same problem - Any penalty *other than death* >>> death.
There is no reasonable way to balance the Clan XL to the Is XL and/or Is LFE with nerfs, *unless* you make it die to ST loss, which screws Omnis hard. The best way to balance the engine disparity is buffing everything that isn't a Clan XL.
Buff STD for both sides
Buff IS LFE
Buff IS XL

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Zuesacoatl, on 06 May 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

I knew that from the begining, but to try to compete with the clans in scouting with payloads, I tried to bring an XL on a couple mechs, and the smarter pilots who can pick out XL loadouts punished me for it. That is the biggest problem, a player should not feel punished for a choice of a piece of equipment, slightly inferior maybe, but never punished.

I'd definitely recommend never bringing an XL to scouting as IS. Griffin with STD 275 and 4 ASRM6 is all you need in terms of payloads. IS's main thing is being able to tank, not having higher damage outputs, so play to your advantage instead of giving yourself a disadvantage to try to copy the enemy's advantage.

If your build gets countered by the enemy's build or tactics because of your equipment, that's what trade-offs are. Much like a brawler being punished for being low range on a long range map or a sniper being punished for having an ERLL loadout on mining collective.

[El Bandito]

When you drop against good CW players, you realize just how handicapping IS XL is.