41 replies to this topic

[FrontGuard]

It seems they reduced the TTK again.
Games the last few days are like 4, 5 minutes long.

How is it a huge expensive thing like a Mech gets destroyed so fast.
I hate the FPS die and re spawn mentality.
I want a chance to communicate with the team and come up with a plan.

Games are over to soon.
I'm not happy with this.

[Koniving]

FrontGuard, on 06 May 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

It seems they reduced the TTK again.
Games the last few days are like 4, 5 minutes long.

How is it a huge expensive thing like a Mech gets destroyed so fast.
I hate the FPS die and re spawn mentality.
I want a chance to communicate with the team and come up with a plan.

Games are over to soon.
I'm not happy with this.

Easy, you take a game where mechs die within 30 seconds to minutes in large scale battles and then make all weapons deliver a minimum of 3x to a current maximum (without quirks) of 19 times the damage and heat that they are supposed to within any given ten second period...
then double the armor and structure of the mechs to give them a few extra seconds chance...
then realize the weight of all the heatsinks and ammo required to support those weapons is only exasperated by doubling the amount of armor and structure to deal with,
so then you throw on quirks to make things die even faster...
but then things are dying too fast so you throw on more armor and structure quirks,
except now things aren't dying fast enough so then you throw on more weapon quirks and change base weapon stats to kill even faster

and then...!!!!!

....and then you have the mess PGI created when they read the damage classes of weapons and took them to mean per shot rather than "within a unit of time."

Edited by Koniving, 06 May 2017 - 12:32 PM.

[Alan Davion]

FrontGuard, on 06 May 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

How is it a huge expensive thing like a Mech gets destroyed so fast.

Repeated, high damage alpha strikes from ridiculously overpowered Clan mechs thanks to a broken since Day One core mechanic of the game, i.e. the heat scale, allowing 2 or even 3 alpha strikes which is enough to kill pretty much any mech in the game.

An alpha strike is supposed to be, in lore, an ABSOLUTE LAST DITCH ATTACK OF DESPERATION with the risk of overheating your mech, the result of which could be an ammo explosion, or literally boiling yourself in your own tissues.

Until the heat scale problem is properly addressed, this will continue to be a festering boil on the a$$ of this game.

Edited by Alan Davion, 06 May 2017 - 12:31 PM.

[KingCobra]

Yawn all this was said 5 years ago but here we are again same topic same problems.

[Brizna]

TTK = (BASE TTK) / (MECHS STARING AT YOU)

[FrontGuard]

back to the old argument: is this a Mech Simulation game or an FPS.
I play because its a Mech Sim game, Not an FPS although yes it has some FPS mechanics.

I spend money because its a Mech Sim.
I hope PGI gets that.
That people spend there hard earned money making their Mech how they want it to be and don't want to see it destroyed in 3 F&$%^ Minutes!!!!
Use your brains PGI!!!

[PhoenixFire55]

FrontGuard, on 06 May 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

It seems they reduced the TTK again.

Since you bring up TTK please do me a favor and give us a clear definition of what TTK is. Until then please refrain from discussing TTK, since you've no idea what you are talking about.

[Coolant]

Koniving, on 06 May 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

Easy, you take a game where mechs die within 30 seconds to minutes in large scale battles and then make all weapons deliver a minimum of 3x to a current maximum (without quirks) of 19 times the damage and heat that they are supposed to within any given ten second period...
then double the armor and structure of the mechs to give them a few extra seconds chance...
then realize the weight of all the heatsinks and ammo required to support those weapons is only exasperated by doubling the amount of armor and structure to deal with,
so then you throw on quirks to make things die even faster...
but then things are dying too fast so you throw on more armor and structure quirks,
except now things aren't dying fast enough so then you throw on more weapon quirks and change base weapon stats to kill even faster

and then...!!!!!

....and then you have the mess PGI created when they read the damage classes of weapons and took them to mean per shot rather than "within a unit of time."

Not sure how you can justify complaining about how PGI balanced close to lore when MW4, just the previous installment, was waaaaay off in tabletop values. Never understood this argument. MWO is muuuuuch closer to lore values and when compared to previous installments there is nothing to complain about.

[Escef]

I haven't noticed matches being significantly longer or shorter these past few months.

[TheMisled]

I'd say if your not playing smartly and just rushing into the enemy then yeah, ttk is ginna be very short but for the past few games I've managed to make my mechs last out well beyond the 40% health mark by torso twisting and making sure I have good positioning (was even able to push my Roughneck down to 13% before kicking the bucket with no weapons left). Face tanking more than 2 enemies is always gonna end up being a very quick death to the player.

Edited by TheMisled, 06 May 2017 - 02:08 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Coolant, on 06 May 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

Not sure how you can justify complaining about how PGI balanced close to lore when MW4, just the previous installment, was waaaaay off in tabletop values. Never understood this argument. MWO is muuuuuch closer to lore values and when compared to previous installments there is nothing to complain about.

Yeah... I'm gonna call BS on that statement there.

There are a ton of values in MWO that are way off when compared to their TT values.

*COUGH*HEATSCALEALLOWINGMULTIPLEALPHAS*COUGH*

*COUGH*DOUBLEDARMORANDSTRUCTURE*COUGH*

[Mcgral18]

Alan Davion, on 06 May 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Yeah... I'm gonna call BS on that statement there.

There are a ton of values in MWO that are way off when compared to their TT values.

*COUGH*HEATSCALEALLOWINGMULTIPLEALPHAS*COUGH*

*COUGH*DOUBLEDARMORANDSTRUCTURE*COUGH*

300% damage values
200% HP values

[Koniving]

Coolant, on 06 May 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

Not sure how you can justify complaining about how PGI balanced close to lore when MW4, just the previous installment, was waaaaay off in tabletop values. Never understood this argument. MWO is muuuuuch closer to lore values and when compared to previous installments there is nothing to complain about.

Close to lore?

Take any mech you built in MWO, put it into tabletop (or Megamek).

You'll be ice cold even when your reactor is about to explode. In fact it'll be such insane overkill that your typical Locust build could freeze a stock Atlas.

Past iterations managed to have longer time to kill with 1x armor and structure and without quirks. Consider that for a minute.

An AC/20 isn't 20 damage per shot, it's 20 damage within 5 to 10 seconds spread over 4 to 100 shots. Though if you throw TacOps into the mix, it goes up to 40, the same as a UAC/20 though there's a higher risk to jam and a risk of it exploding in your face as the barrel melts

In MWO we're throwing 60 damage in 8 seconds without quirks and with quirks we can net up to 100 damage in 10 seconds.

There's a hefty number of IS mechs that don't even have 100 armor that could stand up to a single AC/20 + some medium lasers just fine. But not if MWO got ahold of it.

(To be clear on the above, lore has many variations of weapons that fall within a class, much like M16A1 through A3, AK-47, AK74, SCAR, G7, etc might all fit within a range of AC/5s for examples; yes some might not have the same firepower in a single bullet or the same effect, but if you get enough bullets from each you'll get an effectively similar result...

Spoiler

So while a King Crab's twin Deathgiver AC/20s delivers salvos of a shell per trigger pull at a rate of approximately 5 rounds per second. These are only 120mm -- which might be the caliber of the largest AC/5s such as the Marauder's GM-Whirlwind/5 and uses the same ammunition and as such requires 12 shells to produce 20 damage. The remaining time is spent changing cassettes, also titled "Rounds." That would be the KGB 000. The KGB 0000 downgraded the AC/20s to fully automatic belt fed Imperator Ds [these don't have their caliber specified, however Imperators are almost always 80mm or 100mm, so assuming the lowest end they might be 40 shots to deliver 20 damage, but with no down time and a constant, faster rate of fire that if left unchecked may led to excess thermal problems causing jams [via the TacOps Rapid Fire Autocannon rule]. A Crusher Super Heavy AC/20 is 150mm and each shell nets 2 damage. The Chemjet Gun AC/20 is 185mm and is known to fire 3-4 shells to net its damage, it is also used by the Demolisher tank and is known to obliterate mechs with its heavy punch, the heaviest in the Inner Sphere, and 3 to 4 shells means 6.667 or 5 damage per shell. Since the Mech Heavy Rifle is 190mm and nets 6 damage per shell against armor with a Barrier Armor Rating above 7 [Mechs have a BAR of 10 as do most tanks], it stands to reason the faster firing Chemjet Gun is lobbing 4 shells.)

For fun, the IS has over 60 brands of medium laser, over 40 of which are unique from each other. They all fall under 5 damage, 3 heat... but deliver that at different speeds, in a variety of types and methods. The only FLD medium laser has a blue beam and is called the Rassal Blue Beam, it delivers its damage the fastest and it also has a myriad array of problems when using it, but hey when you're delivering 5 damage in a single shot within less than 0.2 seconds, what would you expect? Most Large Lasers tend to fire around twice to deliver their 8 damage.

So a fun thought about the King Crab 000 versus the 0000. Visually there isn't much of a difference, so there's a scenario proposed by pilots in the universe known as the Hangar Queen's gambit, where a mech is up against a King Crab. It just fired and stopped suddenly, closing its claws. Those guns could shred that mech in seconds. The pilot doesn't know if the cassettes were spent or not, so should he call the Queen's bluff?

• If they're spent, he has a number of seconds before they're ready again and might be able to disable them.
  
• Then again if they are not spent and he steps out, he will be ripped apart. What if they are spent and the time he spends debating it could give the Hangar Queen (King Crab) the time it needs to reload?
  
• What if it is a KGB-quad-zero instead of a triple-oh? If so, none of that would matter because while the KGB-000 has a heavier punch from its 120mm Deathgivers [more FLD], the KGB-0000's 80mm Imperator Ds never stops to reload, only to let the weapons cool in which case the pilot has no chance....

"Now's your chance, do you call its bluff?"

Edited by Koniving, 06 May 2017 - 03:14 PM.

[Vxheous]

Single mech TTK is pretty good, it's when you face a firing line that there's an issue.

Example of Cicada getting a 10vs1 me bro:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/140491460
That's not an issue of TTK, that's an issue of I dun goofed

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 06 May 2017 - 03:55 PM.

[chucklesMuch]

Focus fire, Positioning, team work plays a big part in this...

In my last scouting match on crimson straight we were under the platform. Enemy team comes over saddle. 1 comes straight at us down the ramp, the other 3 go top. Focused fire Kills 1st quickly, 2nd drops though gap in platform facing away from two of us - rear torso rekt... 3rd drops down, then the fourth does the same... all one at a time... ironically the first mech survived the longest (under fire)... fight was over very quickly

Poor play/good team work greatly decreases TTK. (I'm certainly guilty of plenty of the first).

[Tarogato]

Koniving, on 06 May 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

Easy, you take a game where mechs die within 30 seconds to minutes in large scale battles and then make all weapons deliver a minimum of 3x to a current maximum (without quirks) of 19 times the damage and heat that they are supposed to within any given ten second period...
then double the armor and structure of the mechs to give them a few extra seconds chance...

Calling bulIshіt on this.

Doubling armour and structure is more then "a few extra seconds", it straight up doubles the number of shots you need to put into a mech to kill it. So basically, if we want to compare the dps in MWO vs TT, we can halve the weapon damages in MWO, because it is half effective against mechs compared to TT. So... I've done that.

https://docs.google....#gid=1774110510

There four weapons that deal SEVEN TIMES the damage in MWO compared to how they are in TT. And those four weapons ... are the AC2 family. Not exactly... top of the meta. Mind you, the cUAC2 is in a really good place right now, but it's not the best weapon in the game.

Next, the AC5 family is THREE TIMES stronger in MWO compared to TT. But, while it's in an okay place, it's not top of the meta either.

Then comes the SRM2s, which deal 2.5 to 2.7 times more damage in MWO. Woohoo, SRM2s, the weapon nobody equips on anything other than the LCT-3S and occasionally the JR7-IIC-1.

You know what the best weapons are in MWO?

cERPPC: deals 1.3 times more damage (actually, deals 20% less damage than TT, if you consider that the cERPPC deals 15 pinpoint damage in TT, but deals only 10 pinpoint damage in MWO.)

cGauss: deals 10% less damage in MWO compared to TT.

cSRM6: deals 1.3 times more damage

cSPL: deals 3.3 times more damage

LPL: deals 1.6 times more damage

ERLL: deals 1.3 times more damage.




So, yeah, you're right... MWO weapons deal more damage to mechs compared to TT. But it's not 3 to 19 times more damage. Even if you incorporate quirks, it's not going to be 19 times the damage.


There are two chief difference makers here that you are completely ignoring:

1. MWO shots are always called. TT shots are dice rolls.

2. MWO builds carry more guns.

Quote

....and then you have the mess PGI created when they read the damage classes of weapons and took them to mean per shot rather than "within a unit of time."

Vast majority of weapons would be completely useless if PGI based damage on TT dps instead of TT per shot damage. You think SRM2s are pointless now? Reduce their damage by over 60%. Think the small laser is useless right now? Reduce its damage by 40%. Think the gauss rifle is strong right now? Let's increase it's damage by 15%. Brilliant idea! "Balance!"

No.

[Joshua Obrien]

Alan Davion, on 06 May 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

Repeated, high damage alpha strikes from ridiculously overpowered Clan mechs thanks to a broken since Day One core mechanic of the game, i.e. the heat scale, allowing 2 or even 3 alpha strikes which is enough to kill pretty much any mech in the game.

An alpha strike is supposed to be, in lore, an ABSOLUTE LAST DITCH ATTACK OF DESPERATION with the risk of overheating your mech, the result of which could be an ammo explosion, or literally boiling yourself in your own tissues.

Until the heat scale problem is properly addressed, this will continue to be a festering boil on the a$$ of this game.

IT's not just clans, every mech that's heavy and up can basically damn near 2 shot someone. Have you ever seen the 5lpl battlemaster core someone out in one shot? I have, I've seen thunderwubs get about 800-1k damage per match because i've done it and it's not hard with 5 large laser.

[The6thMessenger]

Just make it so that torso weapons ain't pin-point, and then arm weapons ARE pin-point. It's that pin-point nature that really reduces the TTK, anything that reduces that would be really healthy at this point.

"Wut 'bout muh skeelz?" -- **** yer skeelz, we got a game with an unhealthy balance.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 06 May 2017 - 05:52 PM.

[Tarogato]

The6thMessenger, on 06 May 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Just make it so that torso weapons ain't pin-point, and then arm weapons ARE pin-point. It's that pin-point nature that really reduces the TTK, anything that reduces that would be really healthy at this point.

Are you truly ready to accept your Night Gyr and Nova overlords? They're already two of the best mechs in the game...

Edited by Tarogato, 06 May 2017 - 07:09 PM.

[Johnny Z]

FrontGuard, on 06 May 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

It seems they reduced the TTK again.
Games the last few days are like 4, 5 minutes long.

How is it a huge expensive thing like a Mech gets destroyed so fast.
I hate the FPS die and re spawn mentality.
I want a chance to communicate with the team and come up with a plan.

Games are over to soon.
I'm not happy with this.