38 replies to this topic

[Mannson]

Soo, aiight. During my occassional gaming and sprees of faction warfaring like a mofo. I have reached state of nirvana that must be shared. It is a simple line of wisdom

"If you are IS and play the clan game, you lost"

Allow me elaborate

Clan mechs are super elite machines finetuned to swift destruction, making their guns have more range and more alpha damage, also they remain pretty damn mobile. On downside of that, clanners run hotter and have longer cooldowns

IS mechs are soldier's mech; sturdy and reliable warmachines which run relatively cool. On downside, they lack the fantastic advantage of range and alpha damage.

This means, IS mechs are GENERALLY made to take beating, to push and get in the face. Clan mechs generally are made for short, quick duels or small scale skirmishes where fast legs and huge alpha are more favorable.

Why I wrote generally? Well, each side has their exception to the rule mechs. Clanners may be more fragile most of the time, but they have dedicated hard as nails mechs that just don't seem to go down no matter how many AC20 shots you have placed on it.


Especially in FW, when IS wins it wins because of a relentless merciless push. Getting those sturdy assault and heavies right in middle of clanner ranks means clan mech expose their weaknesses; Longer cooldowns and (even if it is just slight) worse heat capacity.
And clans win when they get their heavy hitters in proper firing spots and got their sturdy specialists foiling a push, allowing them to rapidly gain even better ground.


And while not wholeheartily recommended, the art of combined arms can be pretty evil. Having some lurm might hurt your designed range role, but in some of those succesful games, those lurms shined because of a good scout dropping narcs on high priority targets, allowing the team to blot the sky

So, uh.. guess..
TL:DR;
Don't play peek-a-boo at 1000m when you are a brawler?

[Tarogato]

Mannson, on 06 May 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:

Clan mechs are super elite machines finetuned to swift destruction, making their guns have more range and more alpha damage, also they remain pretty damn mobile. On downside of that, clanners run hotter and have longer cooldowns

IS mechs are soldier's mech; sturdy and reliable warmachines which run relatively cool. On downside, they lack the fantastic advantage of range and alpha damage.

This means, IS mechs are GENERALLY made to take beating, to push and get in the face.

Actually, it's generally the other way around these days. All IS mechs have to run XLs to be able to compete with Clans. If IS run STDs, they don't have the firepower and they can't keep up. And the XLs make IS much more fragile than Clans - which is why the IS is teeming with structure and armour quirks - it's to make up for the fragility of the IS mech. Whereas the Clans are faster and can afford to lose a side torso, so they are generally tankier.

[jjm1]

I've always been clan and used to get smashed to pieces in FW. Usually against elite units, but often just pug groups would bust through the gate and have their way with us.

Since then IS mechs have had a few buffs and all clan XLs have even been nerfed a little.

What has changed is definitely the IS players not pushing. They bring a lot of defensive stand-off and LRM support mechs which are practically no threat. You have to bring armor and firepower and approach under cover and learn to shoot. That is the reality of it.

I've seen IS players with the highest damage scores in invasion multiple times. Kudos for carrying your teams that hard while they are sitting around the gates.

[Zergling]

Mannson, on 06 May 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:

On downside of that, clanners run hotter and have longer cooldowns

IS mechs are soldier's mech; sturdy and reliable warmachines which run relatively cool.

This myth needs to die in a fire.

[Tarogato]

Zergling, on 06 May 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

This myth needs to die in a fire.

It's not a myth. Clans do typically run hotter and their weapons take longer to recycle. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


NVM, I WAS WRONG. PGI BUFFED CLAN HEATSINKS, AND I FORGOT. CLAMZ OP. PLZ RE-NERF.

Edited by Tarogato, 07 May 2017 - 01:27 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Tarogato, on 06 May 2017 - 10:24 PM, said:

It's not a myth. Clans do typically run hotter and their weapons take longer to recycle. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My 29 DHS disagree with that

[Novakaine]

Mcgral18, on 06 May 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

My 29 DHS disagree with that

There's your answer 29.

[Templar Dane]

Zergling, on 06 May 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

This myth needs to die in a fire.

3x isLPL = 33 damage for 21 heat, .67s duration

5x CERML = 35 damage for 30 heat, 1.15s duration

2x CLPL = 26 damage for 20 heat, 1.12s duration

isLPLs are great because of the duration. If your aim doesn't suck you'll require less volleys to kill something compared to the alternatives, thus causing less heat. And that's discounting quirks.

Off the top of my head the best mechs for isLPL vomit are.......grasshopper, black knight, battlemaster.

[Tarogato]

Mcgral18, on 06 May 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

My 29 DHS disagree with that

The builds I've been encountering disagree with your disagreement.


I've been mostly seeing these builds out of clans in CW:

Laservom EBJ: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...780626764fcbbc7
Laservom HBK: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fc4b1fbce626a92
Laservom MAD: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6ff6d38deea3141
Laservom HBR: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6105c20de29fc68

Plus been seeing a lot of ERLL coming out of EBJ and HBR on Boreal and Hellebore.

Compare all those builds to staple IS mechs, like the LPL GHR, LPL Warhammer, LPL BLR, and the IS wins on straight up DPS. Not to mention IS has shorter duration lasers, so they can push in and brawl. Clans just run too hot to handle it. The only good cool builds Clans have really are the 2 gauss 1 peep NTG and 2 peep SMN, and I haven't seen very many of those being used. They may be superior in skilled hands, but majority of CW players aren't at that level. Seems people rather run their lolalpha laservomit because it works most of the time and annihilates IS players who try to trade against it.



(and yess, I know that MAD has 28 DHS, but it's still a hot as helI build.)

[Mcgral18]

Tarogato, on 06 May 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

The builds I've been encountering disagree with your disagreement.


I've been mostly seeing these builds out of clans in CW:

Laservom EBJ: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...780626764fcbbc7
Laservom HBK: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fc4b1fbce626a92
Laservom MAD: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6ff6d38deea3141
Laservom HBR: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6105c20de29fc68

Plus been seeing a lot of ERLL coming out of EBJ and HBR on Boreal and Hellebore.

Compare all those builds to staple IS mechs, like the LPL GHR, LPL Warhammer, LPL BLR, and the IS wins on straight up DPS. Not to mention IS has shorter duration lasers, so they can push in and brawl. Clans just run too hot to handle it. The only good cool builds Clans have really are the 2 gauss 1 peep NTG and 2 peep SMN, and I haven't seen very many of those being used. They may be superior in skilled hands, but majority of CW players aren't at that level. Seems people rather run their lolalpha laservomit because it works most of the time and annihilates IS players who try to trade against it.



(and yess, I know that MAD has 28 DHS, but it's still a hot as helI build.)

Your Helbie is wrong!
29 DHS, 6 ERML


Just...don't use it on half the maps. Nice on Grim
That thing is relatively cool, and mid range

Not optimal against 3LPL robots, of course

[Trenchbird]

I... Uh... What?

You can't seriously think that's the best option for a Hellbringer?

[Lupis Volk]

Mannson, on 06 May 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:

Soo, aiight. During my occassional gaming and sprees of faction warfaring like a mofo. I have reached state of nirvana that must be shared. It is a simple line of wisdom

"If you are IS and play the clan game, you lost"

Allow me elaborate

Clan mechs are super elite machines finetuned to swift destruction, making their guns have more range and more alpha damage, also they remain pretty damn mobile. On downside of that, clanners run hotter and have longer cooldowns

IS mechs are soldier's mech; sturdy and reliable warmachines which run relatively cool. On downside, they lack the fantastic advantage of range and alpha damage.

This means, IS mechs are GENERALLY made to take beating, to push and get in the face. Clan mechs generally are made for short, quick duels or small scale skirmishes where fast legs and huge alpha are more favorable.

Why I wrote generally? Well, each side has their exception to the rule mechs. Clanners may be more fragile most of the time, but they have dedicated hard as nails mechs that just don't seem to go down no matter how many AC20 shots you have placed on it.


Especially in FW, when IS wins it wins because of a relentless merciless push. Getting those sturdy assault and heavies right in middle of clanner ranks means clan mech expose their weaknesses; Longer cooldowns and (even if it is just slight) worse heat capacity.
And clans win when they get their heavy hitters in proper firing spots and got their sturdy specialists foiling a push, allowing them to rapidly gain even better ground.


And while not wholeheartily recommended, the art of combined arms can be pretty evil. Having some lurm might hurt your designed range role, but in some of those succesful games, those lurms shined because of a good scout dropping narcs on high priority targets, allowing the team to blot the sky

So, uh.. guess..
TL:DR;
Don't play peek-a-boo at 1000m when you are a brawler?

What's this a Freeborn who knows of thier ubermench defensive quirks.....please stay away from the Davion Kool-aid, the Inner Sphere needs more like you.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 07 May 2017 - 12:40 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I... Uh... What?

You can't seriously think that's the best option for a Hellbringer?

yeah pretty much... anyone running that hellbringer really doesnt know how to run a hellrbinger.

[Zergling]

Tarogato, on 06 May 2017 - 10:24 PM, said:

It's not a myth. Clans do typically run hotter and their weapons take longer to recycle. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Templar Dane, on 06 May 2017 - 10:36 PM, said:

3x isLPL = 33 damage for 21 heat, .67s duration

5x CERML = 35 damage for 30 heat, 1.15s duration

2x CLPL = 26 damage for 20 heat, 1.12s duration

isLPLs are great because of the duration. If your aim doesn't suck you'll require less volleys to kill something compared to the alternatives, thus causing less heat. And that's discounting quirks.

Off the top of my head the best mechs for isLPL vomit are.......grasshopper, black knight, battlemaster.

Don't compare just the weapons; compare actual builds, because for similar levels of firepower, the Clan mechs can pack in more heat sinks that more than offset the hotter Clan weapons and lack of -% heat generation quirks.


Eg, this comparison of 'maximum alpha' laser vomit builds for Timber Wolf and Black Knight 6B (6B because of its -10% heat generation quirk) I did in a different thread recently:

An elited Timber Wolf with 2x Large Pulse, 6x ER Medium and 25 double heat sinks. Such a build has 87.1 kph speed, 405 meter effective range and 68 damage alpha.
The Timby has a maximum heat capacity 78.5 and it can dissipate 4.8875 heat per second.
A single alpha brings it to 71.34% of capacity, and it takes 11.46 seconds to dissipate that heat.
This results in the Timby having a maximum DPS of 16.07, a sustained DPS of 5.93 and a heat efficiency of 36.88%.


Versus an elited Black Knight 6B (with -10% heat generation quirk), with 3x Large Pulse, 6x Medium and 17 double heat sinks. Such a build has 67.3 kph speed, 270 meter effective range, and 63 damage alpha.
The BK has a maximum heat capacity of 66.5, and it can dissipate 3.5075 heat per second.
A single alpha brings it to 60.90% of capacity, and it takes 11.55 seconds to dissipate that heat.
This results in the BK having a maximum DPS of 16.11, a sustained DPS of 5.45 and a heat efficiency of 33.86%.


Of course, the Black Knight can also run with an XL engine, which will allow it to increase its double heat sinks to 19 and top speed to 81.3 kph.
But it can forget about its durability advantage if it does that.

If the Black Knight 6B does that, it will have a maximum heat capacity of 69.5 and dissipate 3.8525 heat per second.
A single alpha will generate 40.5 heat, bringing it to 58.27% of maximum heat, and that heat can be dissipated in 10.51 seconds.
This results in the BK having a maximum DPS of 16.11, a sustained DPS of 5.99 and a heat efficiency of 37.19%.


And in another post, I ran calculations for a Timby with a laser vomit brawling build focused on Medium Pulse Lasers.
It ends up with 330 meters effective range (worse than the 365 meters of the BK's Large Pulse, but better than the 270 meters of the BK's Medium Lasers), and it also loses a bit of alpha damage, but its beam duration drops to 0.85 seconds and its sustained DPS goes up dramatically.

With 27 double heat sinks, it has a maximum heat capacity of 81.5, and dissipates 5.2325 heat per second.

If it is only firing 6 of the Medium Pulses per alpha (to avoid ghost heat), it generates 36 heat per alpha, which brings it up to 44.17% of max heat, and that heat can be dissipated in 6.88 seconds.
It also does a 48 damage alpha, with 12.47 maximum DPS and a sustained DPS of 6.98. It's heat efficiency is 55.96%, so it is definitely far cooler running than the Black Knight.

If it is firing all 7 Medium Pulses per alpha (and so triggering ghost heat), it generates 46.8 heat per alpha, which brings it up to 57.42% of max heat, and that heat can be dissipated in 8.94 seconds.
It does a 56 damage alpha, with 14.54 maximum DPS and a sustained DPS of 6.26. It's heat efficiency is 43.04%, so it is still cooler running than the Black Knight.


So yeah, the Black Knight with -10% heat generation quirk can only run slightly cooler than a Large Pulse + ER Medium laser vomit Timby if the BK is running an XL engine.
If the Timby is running a build with similar range to the BK, it is cooler than even the BK with XL.

Edited by Zergling, 07 May 2017 - 12:45 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Zergling, on 07 May 2017 - 12:45 AM, said:

Don't compare just the weapons; compare actual builds, because for similar levels of firepower, the Clan mechs can pack in more heat sinks that more than offset the hotter Clan weapons and lack of -% heat generation quirks.


Eg, this comparison of 'maximum alpha' laser vomit builds for Timber Wolf and Black Knight 6B (6B because of its -10% heat generation quirk) I did in a different thread recently:

An elited Timber Wolf with 2x Large Pulse, 6x ER Medium and 25 double heat sinks. Such a build has 87.1 kph speed, 405 meter effective range and 68 damage alpha.
The Timby has a maximum heat capacity 78.5 and it can dissipate 4.8875 heat per second.
A single alpha brings it to 71.34% of capacity, and it takes 11.46 seconds to dissipate that heat.
This results in the Timby having a maximum DPS of 16.07, a sustained DPS of 5.93 and a heat efficiency of 36.88%.


Versus an elited Black Knight 6B (with -10% heat generation quirk), with 3x Large Pulse, 6x Medium and 17 double heat sinks. Such a build has 67.3 kph speed, 270 meter effective range, and 63 damage alpha.
The BK has a maximum heat capacity of 66.5, and it can dissipate 3.5075 heat per second.
A single alpha brings it to 60.90% of capacity, and it takes 11.55 seconds to dissipate that heat.
This results in the BK having a maximum DPS of 16.11, a sustained DPS of 5.45 and a heat efficiency of 33.86%.


Of course, the Black Knight can also run with an XL engine, which will allow it to increase its double heat sinks to 19 and top speed to 81.3 kph.
But it can forget about its durability advantage if it does that.

If the Black Knight 6B does that, it will have a maximum heat capacity of 69.5 and dissipate 3.8525 heat per second.
A single alpha will generate 40.5 heat, bringing it to 58.27% of maximum heat, and that heat can be dissipated in 10.51 seconds.
This results in the BK having a maximum DPS of 16.11, a sustained DPS of 5.99 and a heat efficiency of 37.19%.


And in another post, I ran calculations for a Timby with a laser vomit brawling build focused on Medium Pulse Lasers.
It ends up with 330 meters effective range (worse than the 365 meters of the BK's Large Pulse, but better than the 270 meters of the BK's Medium Lasers), and it also loses a bit of alpha damage, but its beam duration drops to 0.85 seconds and its sustained DPS goes up dramatically.

With 27 double heat sinks, it has a maximum heat capacity of 81.5, and dissipates 5.2325 heat per second.

If it is only firing 6 of the Medium Pulses per alpha (to avoid ghost heat), it generates 36 heat per alpha, which brings it up to 44.17% of max heat, and that heat can be dissipated in 6.88 seconds.
It also does a 48 damage alpha, with 12.47 maximum DPS and a sustained DPS of 6.98. It's heat efficiency is 55.96%, so it is definitely far cooler running than the Black Knight.

If it is firing all 7 Medium Pulses per alpha (and so triggering ghost heat), it generates 46.8 heat per alpha, which brings it up to 57.42% of max heat, and that heat can be dissipated in 8.94 seconds.
It does a 56 damage alpha, with 14.54 maximum DPS and a sustained DPS of 6.26. It's heat efficiency is 43.04%, so it is still cooler running than the Black Knight.


So yeah, the Black Knight with -10% heat generation quirk can only run slightly cooler than a Large Pulse + ER Medium laser vomit Timby if the BK is running an XL engine.
If the Timby is running a build with similar range to the BK, it is cooler than even the BK with XL.

and then what you are left with is their durability comparison and also beamdurations and hitboxes for the survival dance of landing the shots. BK surely has the geometry advantage and beamduration advantage + quite soem durability quirks.
Seems kinda like a good balance. Where it probably fails is again pugland where starebattles just happen.
.

[Leone]

Mannson, on 06 May 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:

So, uh.. guess..
TL:DR;
Don't play peek-a-boo at 1000m when you are a brawler?

Congrats! Welcome to Community Warfare!

Good to see you figure out some of the core concepts, and I wish you success brawlin' it up! I look forward to droppin' against ya sometime.

~Leone.

[Zergling]

Lily from animove, on 07 May 2017 - 12:51 AM, said:

and then what you are left with is their durability comparison and also beamdurations and hitboxes for the survival dance of landing the shots. BK surely has the geometry advantage and beamduration advantage + quite soem durability quirks.
Seems kinda like a good balance. Where it probably fails is again pugland where starebattles just happen.
.

Well, comparing the Large Pulse + ER Medium Timby to the standard engine BK, results in the following advantages for the Timby:
29.4% higher top speed
50% higher effective range (405 for Clan ER Meds versus 270 for IS Mediums).
7.9% higher alpha
8.8% higher sustained DPS
0.8% faster cooloff time for an alpha (negligible)
Some higher hardpoints

BK advantages:
21.74% shorter maximum beam duration (0.9 vs 1.15)
38.25% higher damage/tick when firing
13-14% more torso hit points
Better geometry with one shield arm
Doesn't lose speed or suffer an engine heat sink penalty when losing a side torso


Then for the 7x Medium Pulse Timby vs BK, starting with Timby advantages:
29.4% higher top speed
22.22% higher effective range (330 for Clan Medium Pulse versus 270 for IS Mediums).
14.86% higher sustained DPS
22.60% faster cooloff time for an alpha
5.55% shorter beam duration (0.85 vs 0.90)


BK advantages:
12.50% higher alpha
25.35% higher damage/tick when firing
13-14% more torso hit points
Better geometry with one shield arm
Doesn't lose speed or suffer an engine heat sink penalty when losing a side torso


Still, the point was heat efficiency; with a similar level of firepower, Clan mechs can and frequently do up more heat efficient because of how many double heat sinks can be crammed into Clan mechs.

That said, Clan mechs do find it hard to beat Inner Sphere low alpha triple Large Pulse Laser builds in heat efficiency.

Edited by Zergling, 07 May 2017 - 01:17 AM.

[Tarogato]

Zergling, on 07 May 2017 - 12:45 AM, said:

Don't compare just the weapons; compare actual builds, because for similar levels of firepower, the Clan mechs can pack in more heat sinks that more than offset the hotter Clan weapons and lack of -% heat generation quirks.


Eg, this comparison of 'maximum alpha' laser vomit builds for Timber Wolf and Black Knight 6B (6B because of its -10% heat generation quirk) I did in a different thread recently:

An elited Timber Wolf with 2x Large Pulse, 6x ER Medium and 25 double heat sinks. Such a build has 87.1 kph speed, 405 meter effective range and 68 damage alpha.
The Timby has a maximum heat capacity 78.5 and it can dissipate 4.8875 heat per second.
A single alpha brings it to 71.34% of capacity, and it takes 11.46 seconds to dissipate that heat.
This results in the Timby having a maximum DPS of 16.07, a sustained DPS of 5.93 and a heat efficiency of 36.88%.


Versus an elited Black Knight 6B (with -10% heat generation quirk), with 3x Large Pulse, 6x Medium and 17 double heat sinks. Such a build has 67.3 kph speed, 270 meter effective range, and 63 damage alpha.
The BK has a maximum heat capacity of 66.5, and it can dissipate 3.5075 heat per second.
A single alpha brings it to 60.90% of capacity, and it takes 11.55 seconds to dissipate that heat.
This results in the BK having a maximum DPS of 16.11, a sustained DPS of 5.45 and a heat efficiency of 33.86%.


Of course, the Black Knight can also run with an XL engine, which will allow it to increase its double heat sinks to 19 and top speed to 81.3 kph.
But it can forget about its durability advantage if it does that.

If the Black Knight 6B does that, it will have a maximum heat capacity of 69.5 and dissipate 3.8525 heat per second.
A single alpha will generate 40.5 heat, bringing it to 58.27% of maximum heat, and that heat can be dissipated in 10.51 seconds.
This results in the BK having a maximum DPS of 16.11, a sustained DPS of 5.99 and a heat efficiency of 37.19%.


And in another post, I ran calculations for a Timby with a laser vomit brawling build focused on Medium Pulse Lasers.
It ends up with 330 meters effective range (worse than the 365 meters of the BK's Large Pulse, but better than the 270 meters of the BK's Medium Lasers), and it also loses a bit of alpha damage, but its beam duration drops to 0.85 seconds and its sustained DPS goes up dramatically.

With 27 double heat sinks, it has a maximum heat capacity of 81.5, and dissipates 5.2325 heat per second.

If it is only firing 6 of the Medium Pulses per alpha (to avoid ghost heat), it generates 36 heat per alpha, which brings it up to 44.17% of max heat, and that heat can be dissipated in 6.88 seconds.
It also does a 48 damage alpha, with 12.47 maximum DPS and a sustained DPS of 6.98. It's heat efficiency is 55.96%, so it is definitely far cooler running than the Black Knight.

If it is firing all 7 Medium Pulses per alpha (and so triggering ghost heat), it generates 46.8 heat per alpha, which brings it up to 57.42% of max heat, and that heat can be dissipated in 8.94 seconds.
It does a 56 damage alpha, with 14.54 maximum DPS and a sustained DPS of 6.26. It's heat efficiency is 43.04%, so it is still cooler running than the Black Knight.


So yeah, the Black Knight with -10% heat generation quirk can only run slightly cooler than a Large Pulse + ER Medium laser vomit Timby if the BK is running an XL engine.
If the Timby is running a build with similar range to the BK, it is cooler than even the BK with XL.

Of course, since the clans have more range and higher alpha, the IS can't win a trade war. The IS have to push. And when you push, you aren't firing alpha's all of the time. In fact, it would behoove you to NOT fire alphas, because they inhibit your DPS.

Instead, you'd be firing your LPLs.

So, looking at your Black Knight build, ignoring quirks, you're dealing 5.891 sustained DPS with those LPLs in a push. 33 per shot (49.25 dmg/s).

While the Timby is dealing ...

oh... sh**




Umm...

f**k.




The Timby is dealing 6.354 sustained DPS, which is 8% better than IS. And 26 damage per shot (23.21 dmg/s).



You actually caught me with my pants down there. Clans OP.

I could have sworn the IS LPL had the better efficiency. Maybe it's because PGI buffed cDHS relatively recently.

Regardless, the IS dealing 33 damage in 0.67s is still monstrously better. That's mostly why it works for them, because the long burn durations for cLPL. I thought the heat efficiency was also better... but... apparently it's not.

*eats foot*


PGI really needs to nerf cDHS back to where they were. I didn't realise it was this bad. =/

[Mcgral18]

Catten Hart, on 06 May 2017 - 11:57 PM, said:

I... Uh... What?

You can't seriously think that's the best option for a Hellbringer?

Who said that?
It's AN option, and far from the worst (there are missile hardpoints, you know)

[Zergling]

Tarogato, on 07 May 2017 - 01:24 AM, said:

Of course, since the clans have more range and higher alpha, the IS can't win a trade war. The IS have to push. And when you push, you aren't firing alpha's all of the time. In fact, it would behoove you to NOT fire alphas, because they inhibit your DPS.

Instead, you'd be firing your LPLs.

So, looking at your Black Knight build, ignoring quirks, you're dealing 5.891 sustained DPS with those LPLs in a push. 33 per shot (49.25 dmg/s).

While the Timby is dealing ...

oh... sh**




Umm...

f**k.




The Timby is dealing 6.354 sustained DPS, which is 8% better than IS. And 26 damage per shot (23.21 dmg/s).



You actually caught me with my pants down there. Clans OP.

I could have sworn the IS LPL had the better efficiency. Maybe it's because PGI buffed cDHS relatively recently.

Regardless, the IS dealing 33 damage in 0.67s is still monstrously better. That's mostly why it works for them, because the long burn durations for cLPL. I thought the heat efficiency was also better... but... apparently it's not.

*eats foot*


PGI really needs to nerf cDHS back to where they were. I didn't realise it was this bad. =/

With quirks, the Black Knight 6B gets 6.12 sustained DPS when firing just 3x Large Pulse, versus the the Timby getting 6.35 sustained DPS when firing just 2x Large Pulse.

The BK is generating 4.8214 heat per second and dissipating 3.5075 heat per second, so its heat balance is going up by 1.1414 per second.

The Timby is generating 4.5767 heat per second and dissipating 4.8875 heat per second, so it is actually losing 0.3108 heat per second; it could add in an ER Medium Laser every now and then to increase its sustained DPS to higher levels.


EDIT2: To be fair, the 6.35 sustained DPS of the Timby with 2x Large Pulse is actually higher than its maximum DPS of 5.95, due to it having over 100% heat efficiency.
Working out the exact sustained DPS of the thing with intermittent ER Medium use is tricky, but if it fires 2x Large Pulse and 1x ER Medium constantly, it'd get 6.20 sustained DPS.

EDIT3: Letsee... with 2x Large Pulse only being fired, the Timby is lowering its heat by 0.31 per second.
A single ER Medium Laser being fired generates 6 heat, so it can be fired once every 19.3 seconds while remaining completely heat neutral.
At 7 damage per firing, that equals another 0.36 DPS from the ER Medium. Adding that on top of the 5.95 DPS from the 2x Large Pulse, that produces a total sustained DPS of 6.31.




EDIT: did a comparison of a Thunderbolt 5SS (with -15% heat generation quirk) with triple Large Pulse Lasers versus Hellbringer with quad Medium Pulse Lasers (closest comparison in range, total damage and beam duration to triple IS Large Pulse I can come up with, other than twin Clan Large Pulse).

Thunderbolt has 72.3 kph speed, 401.5 meter effective range (thanks to 10% range quirk) and 33 damage alpha.
It has a maximum heat capacity of 68, and it can dissipate 3.680 heat per second.
A single alpha brings it to 26.25% of heat capacity, and it takes 4.85 seconds to dissipate the heat from a single alpha.
This results in a maximum DPS of 9.61 (energy cooldown quirk accounted for), sustained DPS of 6.80 and heat efficiency of 70.76%

Hellbringer has 87.1 kph speed, 330 meter effective range, and 32 damage alpha.
It has a maximum heat capacity of 84.5, and it can dissipate 5.577 heat per second.
A single alpha brings it to 28.40% of heat capacity, and it takes 4.30 seconds to dissipate the heat from a single alpha.
This results in a maximum DPS of 8.31, sustained DPS of 7.44 and heat efficiency of 89.47%.


Of course, while 4x Clan Medium Pulse are close in damage to the 3x IS Large Pulse, they are inferior in beam duration and range... so more Medium Pulse is probably needed for a better comparison.

So here's Hellbringer with 5x Medium Pulse and 28 double heat sinks.
Same speed and range, but alpha increased to 40.
It has a maximum heat capacity of 83.0, and it can dissipate 5.405 heat per second.
A single alpha brings it to 36.14% of heat capacity, and it takes 5.55 seconds to dissipate the heat from a single alpha.
This results in a maximum DPS of 10.39, sustained DPS of 7.21 and heat efficiency of 69.36%.

That Hellbringer is definitely less heat efficient than the Thunderbolt, but it still has better sustained DPS.


Another Hellbringer build to compare with is 6x ER Medium Lasers with 31 double heat sinks.
Same speed, but range is 405 meters, comparable to the 401 meters of the Thunderbolt, and alpha is up to 42, although beam duration is almost double that of the Thunderbolt's Large Pulses.
It has a maximum heat capacity of 87.5, and it can dissipate 5.9225 heat per second.
A single alpha brings it to 41.14% of heat capacity, and it takes 6.08 seconds to dissipate the heat from a single alpha.
This results in a maximum DPS of 10.12, sustained DPS of 6.91 and heat efficiency of 68.27%.

So yeah, still less heat efficient than the Thunderbolt, but has comparable range and slightly better sustained DPS.

And it can also drop to 5x ER Mediums and 32 double heat sinks, which gives it 7.11 sustained DPS with 84.31% heat efficiency.
Dropping to 4x ER Mediums and 33 double heat sinks will give it over 100% heat efficiency, at which point the sustained DPS is the same as maximum: 6.75, so it ends up worse than 5x ER Mediums.

Edited by Zergling, 07 May 2017 - 04:35 AM.