109 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

Tarogato, on 09 May 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

To something that looks like this:

That is a pretty picture but you kind of forgot something. The proposed Skill Tree replaces the old Skill "stump" plus all the Pilot Skills (modules). That adds about 130 or so more little nodes with 5 clicks to max out each one. Sure, you are not going to use every one of them on every Mech but if you are going to show a picture then you should show the whole picture. You are not going to use every node on the proposed Skill Tree on every Mech either. I left your Trump gif up there because I thought it rather fitting. At the very least, you are going to add about 25-30 clicks to your argument.

I Mastered 11 Mechs on the PTS. At first, it was slow because I was exploring a bit. By the 10th and 11th I was doing Mechs in less than 5 minutes each. That is sometime less time than it takes me to find my modules between matches.

Do not get me wrong. I wish there were less clicks too. However, the proposed Skill Tree does allow a more progressive leveling of skills instead of having to save up a big chunks for things like all your Speed Tweak benefits at one time. It also does not reward boating or min-maxing quite as much as the current tree because you have to spread your skill points around and use more to max out a particular skill.

Edited by Rampage, 09 May 2017 - 06:29 PM.

[Erronius]

I love how there is really no way to please people. If PGI were to cancel this again based on complaints, you'd have people complaining loudly that it was going to go the route of other things like energy drain. If they push it through, as is, people are going to complain. If, at some future date, they simplify the skill trees as some people seem to want, they'll have to give refunds and people will have to re-skill, but people will then complain loudly about that, too.

At this point it almost feels like a lot of the more vocal people on the forums should be thanking PGI for giving them something new to complain about.

[Erronius]

Rampage, on 09 May 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

That is a pretty picture but you kind of forgot something. The proposed Skill Tree replace the old Skill "stump" plus all the Pilot Skills (modules). That adds about 130 or so more little nodes with 5 clicks to max out each one. Sure, you are not going to use everyone of them on every Mech but if you are going to show a picture then you should show the whole picture. You are not going to use every node on the proposed Skill Tree on every Mech either. I left your Trump gif up there because I thought it rather fitting. At the very least, you are going to add about 25-30 clicks to your argument.

I Mastered 11 Mech on the PTS. At first it was slow because I was exploring a bit. By the 10th and 11th I was doing Mechs in less than 5 minutes each. That is sometime less time than it takes me to find my modules between matches.

Do not get me wrong. I wish there were less clicks too. However, the proposed Skill Tree does allow a more progressive leveling of skills instead of having to save up a big chunks for things like all your Speed Tweak benefits at one time. It also does not reward boating or min-maxing quite as much as the current tree because you have to spread your skill points around and use more to max out a particular skill.

Yeah, I will not miss having to move modules around at all. I can't even imagine how much time some people have spent on that alone.

[El Bandito]

I do not care how much they fiddled with the new skill tree after the last PTS, just release it!

[YoungBob10025]

Lorcryst NySell, on 09 May 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

Ditto, on both accounts.

Skilling my 104 mechs to full will still take less clicks than building a good set of armor with my blacksmith in Ultima Online.

No problem, the sky is not falling, working as intended, all whining nominal.

I played on Sonoma and on seige Perious for almost 12 years and know what your talking about LOL *tips hat*

[TercieI]

Tarogato, on 09 May 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Now tell me... why again do we need this?

We don't. And, bluntly, I think it's going to break everything more than even cognizant players are realizing. This is a fundamental, closed beta-at-the-latest sort of change that is actually detrimental to the game.

Edited by TercieI, 09 May 2017 - 06:14 PM.

[Moadebe]

Tarogato, on 09 May 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

*actually logs into the game to make sure this is correct while typing it out*


2 clicks per skill. There are 13 skills, so 26 clicks.

4 clicks to get into the tree itself. I usually do several thousand XP per visit, so 5 to 8 visits in total. Probably on average, 26 clicks.

So in total, 52+ clicks under the old system. At most maybe 60 or so clicks.

I would suggest re-reading what I said...cause you sir are wrong. To master 1 chassis you must also (semi) master 2 other chassis. You cannot put points into all skills of one (1) chassis without first getting all skills on two (2) other chassis (minus module slot). To master one (1) mech my math is correct. You cannot simply buy one chassis of one mech and simply master it out. Therefore you must take into consideration ALL necessary clicks involved.

Re-read and re-look at the current system. Thanks.

[4rcs1ne]

TercieI, on 09 May 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

We don't. And, bluntly, I think it's going to break everything more than even cognizant players are realizing. This is a fundamental, closed beta-at-the-latest sort of change that is actually detrimental to the game.

I agree. PGI should not be making huge sweeping balance changes this late in the game's development.

[50 50]

The template idea that was bounced around in a few post was a really good suggestion.
Given the layout is identical between mechs, clan and is and we don't have some mechs with more or less points.... templates is a great idea.

If we had 3 or 4 templates that we could name and save... like our drop decks... then some functionality to load up and apply that template to various mechs would be a huge benefit.
Still get to decide at the end if we are going to save that selection onto the mechs and the templates can even allow for some variation if we can save less than the full 91 allocated nodes.

If we have a really close look at the position of the skills there is a reason why it is setup in this manner and whoever went through the process has had a really difficult job and done very well.

As for the offensive quirks, it will be a hell of a lot easier to make changes to the individual weapons rather than the individual mechs.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Matt2496, on 09 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

I agree. PGI should not be making huge sweeping balance changes this late in the game's development.

You're right, we should cancel the new tech. Who needs LFE, RACs ATMs, MRMs, or light/heavy/SnubNoses PPCs anyways?

[4rcs1ne]

Prosperity Park, on 09 May 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

You're right, we should cancel the new tech. Who needs LFE, RACs ATMs, MRMs, or light/heavy/SnubNoses PPCs anyways?

New tech is fine because it is obviously something the IS desperately needs.

Does the IS (Or clan for that matter) need the skill tree? No. It will hurt the IS more than help.

Will the skill tree add enjoyment to the game? Well, if clicking a mouse button thousands of times is fun to you, then heck you'll have lots of fun!

[Felicitatem Parco]

Matt2496, on 09 May 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

New tech is fine because it is obviously something the IS desperately needs.

Does the IS (Or clan for that matter) need the skill tree? No. It will hurt the IS more than help.

Will the skill tree add enjoyment to the game? Well, if clicking a mouse button thousands of times is fun to you, then heck you'll have lots of fun!

Oh, you mean how we get to chose how to level our Mechs in the Mechlab instead of following a boring straight ladder of upgrades that require going in and out of different Mechlab tabs, table that don't show your actual loadout, cammo, or the names you gave to your Mechs? Yes, I welcome my mouse clicks. Especially since I have to do it only once per mech and it takes less than 2 minutes.

Some people like the old boring system I guess. Choice is too much for you to handle, so it's better if a set path of upgrades are spoon-fed to you. That way you don't have to spend countless nights awake, wondering if you Meta'd your Mechs right.

[Mystere]

Monkey Lover, on 09 May 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

We need to stop being distracted by this event and look at the skill tree coming. At this point it doesn't even look like we're going to see another pts and IS(some clans) are getting nerfed hard. We need to test the real place numbers on the mechs and with full 12 v 12 teams.

<steps out of the shadows>

Psst!

Hey you!

Yes, you!

I have great news. We're going to have Stars vs. Lances, starting with Clan Binary vs. IS Company fights.

<steps back into the shadows>

[Mystere]

Matt2496, on 09 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

I agree. PGI should not be making huge sweeping balance changes this late in the game's development.

Are there any former/present Age of Conan players here?

Does anyone remember the hullabaloo during the Ranger revamp?

[TheMadTypist]

But I made like 16 million so far! How can I look away from these riches?

Sweet, sweet cbills. New patch what?

Ooh, Squirrel!

[Felicitatem Parco]

TheMadTypist, on 09 May 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

But I made like 16 million so far! How can I look away from these riches?

Sweet, sweet cbills. New patch what?

Ooh, Squirrel!

You must pay attention to the patch! People will *literally* forget about the skill tree unless we remind them now! Seriously, that is what this thread is. It's the idea that Tukayyid is actually an attempt at PGI to make people forget about the skill tree.

Yup, I mean, how cool is that? It's a chance to harp about the skill tree while also suggesting that PGI is lame enough to think this will serve as a distraction to make people forget about the skill tree. 2 points!

[Ryllen Kriel]

Hence the Turkeyyid meme.

[4rcs1ne]

Prosperity Park, on 09 May 2017 - 07:16 PM, said:

Oh, you mean how we get to chose how to level our Mechs in the Mechlab instead of following a boring straight ladder of upgrades that require going in and out of different Mechlab tabs, table that don't show your actual loadout, cammo, or the names you gave to your Mechs? Yes, I welcome my mouse clicks. Especially since I have to do it only once per mech and it takes less than 2 minutes.

I currently own 75 mechs. Let's say it takes me 1min 30 sec to level each one (Which is a very generous estimate IMO). 1.5*75 = 112.5 min = 1.875 hrs. This means for 75 mechs it will basically take me 2 hrs to level all of them up which really isn't great, but not unbearable. How about for someone who owns more than 200 mechs (Which a lot of hardcore players do)? 100*1.5 = 300 min = 5 hr. I don't know about you, but 5 hr is a mighty long amount of time to spend just clicking things.

Lets approach this from a "number of clicks" perspective. 75*91 = 6825 clicks. IMHO, this is a lot of clicks and this doesn't even include having to go back and make changes. How bout' for 200 mechs? 200*91 = 18200 clicks. I don't even think I need to explain this number.

Prosperity Park, on 09 May 2017 - 07:16 PM, said:

Some people like the old boring system I guess. Choice is too much for you to handle, so it's better if a set path of upgrades are spoon-fed to you. That way you don't have to spend countless nights awake, wondering if you Meta'd your Mechs right.

You're putting words in my mouth. My gripes have nothing to do with this (I've already addressed one of them), but they have everything to do with Clan vs IS balance (Top tier vs bottom tier). I love having choice. However, if the 91 total added quirks are going to net fewer quirks on any bad IS (Or clan) mech than before the ST, then I will (And do) oppose this change.

This is grade school math folks. If I give two people 5 apples (1 and 2), take 3 away from one person(1), and give both of them 10 later(1 and 2). Guess who has more? That's right, 2 has more because I took 3 away from him at the very beginning and gave them both the same amount later. This is the very thing that is happening with this ST. The top tier mechs will become stronger and the bottom tier mechs will become worse which will result in even greater imbalance than before.

Basically, the ST in its current state is a zero-sum game when it shouldn't and doesn't have to be.

Edited by Matt2496, 09 May 2017 - 08:15 PM.

[Beaching Betty]

Naglinator, on 09 May 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

[redacted]

Im somehow excited for it. Pls dont throw me down there!

[Navid A1]

The new skill tree is a good concept executed in the most horrid way imaginable.

The community (like solahma) literally gave PGI a decent ready to go system... but somehow they decided you have to have laser duration skill to reach heat gen on a mech with no energy hardpoints.

People said that no one will sacrifice skill points on auxiliary/consumable tree.... What PGI does?... instead of introducing separate points to different trees, they removed a consumable slot to FORCE you to spend skill points.

I don't know, with the way they are iterating this... I'm almost certain there is zero analysis being done there. Its basically band-aiding loop holes.

Also, please... stop criticizing the skill tree using something insignificant such as number of clicks excuse... it detracts from the main failing point which is the tree itself and its effects on gameplay.


But hey... skill tree is gonna be awesome right?... riiiiight!
Lets ignore evidence and tests


And thanks PGI for robbing my modules and replacing them with recurring XP costs that run out if I try different builds.