164 replies to this topic

[Shifty McSwift]

justcallme A S H, on 10 May 2017 - 10:24 PM, said:

Honestly right now balance is the best it has been for a long time. And here we have ST about to come along and totally break it for IS.

Wouldn't any change/patch alter this state though. Ignoring the Skilltree, if balance is "good" or better than it was now, wouldn't the civil war patch "ruin" that again.

Seems like you are advising to leave the game as is and make no future changes ever.

[visionGT4]

Right, so what these deniers are now attempting to say is that IS should be happy with 3x viable chassis

[Weeny Machine]

justcallme A S H, on 10 May 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

6. Shorter burn time, longer range. It is better. IS LPL - 11dmg/7 heat. cERML - 6dmg/6heat. LPL is more heat efficient, then add in heat gen quirks for mechs. A LPL BLKNT7/GHP5H will walk all over a 6cERML HBR for instance.

Several points you brought up are amusing but this is the best. You conveniently forget that a LPL weight 7 tons. So, you have here 14t of weapons compared to 6. What is more amusing, in your example the IS alpha does 22 damage and the clan one 42. Even if the damage scatters or hits partially because the target moves into cover you will end up with at least the same damage on one component.
Then you need to consider space. A heatsink for IS takes 3 slots, a clanner 2. Now pack that all in a mech and usually you end up with a better clan mech, especially in peek-a-boo fights. Too bad that this is FW mostly about.


Oh, and a CERML does 7 damage. And you tell other people they do not know their mechs? Now, that's amusing.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 10 May 2017 - 10:48 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

El Bandito, on 10 May 2017 - 10:30 PM, said:

Gotta jump on here. With group chainfire, such as 3x3 ERLL on the BLR-1G, total time spent on firing is 1.25 + 0.5 = 1.75 second.

When using CERLLs, such as 2x2 with Hellbringer, total time spend on firing is 1.5 + 0.5 = 2 seconds. So duration wise, there is only 1/8 difference.

Not that big of a duration difference as you claimed.

The GHP-5P is 1.05sec IIRC. If you want duration on a BLR, use the 2C but you lose some range.

GHP is 1.05 + 1.05 + 0.5 = 2.6

HBR is 1.5 + 1.5 + .5 = 3.5

Near enough to a second and more than 1/8th

[El Bandito]

justcallme A S H, on 10 May 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

The GHP-5P is 1.05sec IIRC. If you want duration on a BLR, use the 2C but you lose some range.

GHP is 1.05 + 1.05 + 0.5 = 2.6

HBR is 1.5 + 1.5 + .5 = 3.5

Near enough to a second and more than 1/8th

Your Smurfy skills are not strong enough. 2C does not have duration quirks. If you want 5-6 ERLLs with duration quirk, then use BLR-3M. But then 3M will have only 742 meter range, about 100 meters less than a Clan CERLL mech with TCMK1.

And how the heck did you think of firing lasers like that? Look, you shoot first group of C/ERLLs, wait for 0.5 second, and shoot the second group of C/ERLLs. The sum of total duration equals to only the second group of C/ERLLs' duration plus the 0.5 second you waited after the first group. So in case of BLR-1G vs. Hellbie in my previous post, durations are 1.75 vs. 2.0, respectively.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 May 2017 - 11:31 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Bush Hopper, on 10 May 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

Several points you brought up are amusing but this is the best. You conveniently forget that a LPL weight 7 tons. So, you have here 14t of weapons compared to 6. What is more amusing, in your example the IS alpha does 22 damage and the clan one 42. Even if the damage scatters or hits partially because the target moves into cover you will end up with at least the same damage on one component.

Oh, and a CERML does 7 damage. And you tell other people they do not know their mechs? Now, that's amusing.

Yep 7 dmg, miss-hit on the keyboard. It happens.

Umm... It's 33 dmg with 3 x IS LPL for 21 heat. With quirks, 17.85 heat (GHP5H), better range/duration. BLK7 is 19.8 or something off the top of my head.

Clan is 42 dmg with the 6 x cERML for 36 heat. No quirks. less range higher duration.

So is the BLK, GHP, WHM - Really is not even close to worse than the comparative HBR which is tonnage locked beyond belief. Given apparently all Omni mechs are apparently better than IS, which is, incorrect.

Also don't forget those IS mechs have much better agility quirks - ie - they twist faster/spread better. Moving into cover is not a valid argument as both mechs have the option. If the Clan mech moves into cover the IS mech can then close distance and then bring the power of the ML into the fight.

So take a EBJ with 68pt EBJ and a GHP/BLK etc - If you let that mech come within 400m if you, you're totally fked. It can spread the first 2 x 68pt alphas easily across 5 components while closing distance. Returning fire with LPL same time - EBJ has to stare, time that LPL right, land a CT ez.

It's just not that hard. I think you need IS piloting training if you think Clan is OP in this regard. Happy to provide training and show you how to run IS mechs better. Looking at your Avg Match score - you could do with taking up the offer.

Shifty McSwift, on 10 May 2017 - 10:36 PM, said:

Wouldn't any change/patch alter this state though. Ignoring the Skilltree, if balance is "good" or better than it was now, wouldn't the civil war patch "ruin" that again.

Seems like you are advising to leave the game as is and make no future changes ever.

Please quote where I have said to leave the game?

Fact is - Skill Tree is a global (and bad) nerf to IS.
Civ War - Remains to be see where balance will fall but of course, it will take a few months to settle.

[Commander A9]

Correction.

Why are Clans OP?

They're not. It's the players in the cockpits who know how to play as a team.

If Clans were OP, they'd win every match unquestioningly. Teams like MercStar, KCOM, BCMC, 228th, etc etc etc win on both sides.

Why? Because they know how to play as a team.

If Clans were OP, then why the hell was it that Clans got pushed back all the way to their starting planets right after the first Tukayyid event? There was NO invasion whatsoever because the big teams who won Tukayyid I switched right after that to Inner Sphere and continued the brutalization of their opposition.

It's not the mechs, not entirely, it's the pilots-and you can't nerf skill...not without granting one side artificial buffs (like, say, mismatched tonnage?).

[justcallme A S H]

El Bandito, on 10 May 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

How the heck did you think of firing lasers like that?

Because that is how you count it? Maybe you're as tired as I am right now.

So I'll tell you a story... On Frozen City. Across the great expanse as two teams camp their base on Assault for 5mins.

Two mechs spot each other. A slender Grasshopper and a slightly chubby Hellbringer. They like what they see and feel like they want to touch each other a little bit and have some fun.


GHP-5P - 1.05 + 0.5 (wait) + 1.05 = 2.6 sec

HBR - 1.5 + 0.5 (wait) + 1.5 = 3.5 sec


The GHP-5P sprays his load all over the HBR, he's a bit premature and finished 0.9 seconds earlier than the HBR can get his show done. So just as the HBR nears the half way mark, the GHP can twist out and mitigate nearly 75% of the 2nd volley because he finished up quite a bit sooner. Spreading all that spooooge all over the his body.

Makes sense, yes?

What I'm not sure about is if the GHP rubs it into his body or not. Maybe that can be episode 2

[Johnny Z]

Commander A9, on 10 May 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

Correction.

Why are Clans OP?

They're not. It's the players in the cockpits who know how to play as a team.

If Clans were OP, they'd win every match unquestioningly. Teams like MercStar, KCOM, BCMC, 228th, etc etc etc win on both sides.

Why? Because they know how to play as a team.

If Clans were OP, then why the hell was it that Clans got pushed back all the way to their starting planets right after the first Tukayyid event? There was NO invasion whatsoever because the big teams who won Tukayyid I switched right after that to Inner Sphere and continued the brutalization of their opposition.

It's not the mechs, not entirely, it's the pilots-and you can't nerf skill...not without granting one side artificial buffs (like, say, mismatched tonnage?).

Your using the manipulation of the player base as an argument for balance. Think about it.

You do have a valid argument in a way but its irrelevant.

This topic is about balance of the mechs, not who switches sides when or who are the better players.

I think everyone agrees the balance is close, and that the better(more experienced, better connection etc) player in a mech of either side will come out on top, but this is about equal pilots on each side in theory.

So to put it simply lets keep the bull to a minimum and stick to the mechs.

Edited by Johnny Z, 10 May 2017 - 11:50 PM.

[El Bandito]

justcallme A S H, on 10 May 2017 - 11:47 PM, said:

Because that is how you count it? Maybe you're as tired as I am right now.

So I'll tell you a story... On Frozen City. Across the great expanse as two teams camp their base on Assault for 5mins.

Two mechs spot each other. A slender Grasshopper and a slightly chubby Hellbringer. They like what they see and feel like they want to touch each other a little bit and have some fun.

GHP-5P - 1.05 + 0.5 (wait) + 1.05 = 2.6 sec

HBR - 1.5 + 0.5 (wait) + 1.5 = 3.5 sec


The GHP-5P sprays his load all over the HBR, he's a bit premature and finished 0.9 seconds earlier than the HBR can get his show done. So just as the HBR nears the half way mark, the GHP can twist out and mitigate nearly 75% of the 2nd volley because he finished up quite a bit sooner. Spreading all that spooooge all over the his body.

Makes sense, yes?

No, that doesn't make sense. Why would you wait until your first group of lasers to finish burning and then add another 0.5 second of wait time before shooting the second group?

[justcallme A S H]

Oh ye... duh I'm so fken tired atm. Work is killing me.

My bad.

You're right

My story was good though, no?

So...

GHP - 1.05 dur + 0.5 = 1.55
HBR - 1.5 dur + 0.5 = 2.0


Got there

Edited by justcallme A S H, 11 May 2017 - 12:07 AM.

[kapusta11]

IMO, clan tech has no real downsides while providing huge weight savings. cGauss - 3 tons lighter, same damage, range, velocity. You save 6 tons with two gauss rifles. cEndo - 7 slots, same weight savings. cFerro - 7 slots, MORE weight savings compared to IS Ferro. 3 IS UAC5s - 27 tons, 4 cUAC5s - 28 tons, one more ton and you've got yourself another gun. cXL engine has no real downsides either, a mech without ST still poses a threat and draws aggro of your teammates hence aiming for ST is useless most of the time, yet it saves you enormous amount of weight.

Edited by kapusta11, 11 May 2017 - 12:23 AM.

[El Bandito]

Commander A9, on 10 May 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

It's not the mechs, not entirely, it's the pilots-and you can't nerf skill...not without granting one side artificial buffs (like, say, mismatched tonnage?).

While I agree that extra tonnage for the IS artificially buffs performance, the same can be said of Clan tech. An average pug can contribute more in a Clan mech, than an IS mech. And I bet if two equally skilled teams in MRBC face off, and one side is not allowed Clan mechs, that side is gonna lose more. Finally, on a personal level, my NGyrs, EBJs, Hellbringers, MAD-IIC, and KDK-3 all have superior stats than same tonnage IS mechs--even though I have far more experience with IS mechs. My own skill didn't increase by itself just because I piloted Clan mechs--it is the Clan tech that is artificially increasing my performance.

[Emeraudes]

El Bandito, on 11 May 2017 - 12:40 AM, said:

While I agree that extra tonnage for the IS artificially buffs performance, the same can be said of Clan tech. An average pug can contribute more in a Clan mech, than an IS mech. And I bet if two equally skilled teams in MRBC face off, and one side is not allowed Clan mechs, that side is gonna lose more. Finally, on a personal level, my NGyrs, EBJs, Hellbringers, MAD-IIC, and KDK-3 all have superior stats than same tonnage IS mechs--even though I have far more experience with IS mechs. My own skill didn't increase by itself just because I piloted Clan mechs--it is the Clan tech that is artificially increasing my performance.

What is the metric you're using to measure your performance though? Quality of wins, ability to get away with mistakes, time to kill, damage output, accuracy... etc.

[Hayato Mori]

IS is balanced around what, half a dozen 'Mechs that can run completely one dimensional builds in order to slightly edge out their clan counterpart when dropping as an organized group... which is sound theory crafting.

In the meantime, the most popular light in comp play is the ACH, the most popular medium is the HBK-IIC, the most popular 'Mech period of any in the entire game, is the NTG, and the most popular assault is the KDK. If it wasn't for limitations on hero mechs and duplicates, you would probably almost never see an IS 'Mech. Quite a few MRBC drops are all or nearly all clan, how many are all IS? I'm willing to bet none.

For the tens of thousands of players out there who get home from work and jump into some games, the clan 'Mechs are going to wildly outperform their IS counterparts without any of the disadvantages. More damage, more durability, more range, and more speed without any need to set or coordinate a gameplan.

There is a good case for IS being close to balanced with enough planning and effort, outside of that it is as much a sh**show as this Tuk3 event has been... but thanks for the free MC, IS queues are like 5 seconds.

[Shifty McSwift]

Emeraudes, on 11 May 2017 - 12:44 AM, said:

What is the metric you're using to measure your performance though? Quality of wins, ability to get away with mistakes, time to kill, damage output, accuracy... etc.

Damage output, mech speed, and heat efficiency I think top that list. If you can compare those numbers against each other it tends to be what defines the "meta mechs", the sub optimal or "underperforming" mechs are in almost all cases outclassed in all three aspects by other mechs.

[El Bandito]

Emeraudes, on 11 May 2017 - 12:44 AM, said:

What is the metric you're using to measure your performance though? Quality of wins, ability to get away with mistakes, time to kill, damage output, accuracy... etc.

Combination of WLR, KDR, kills/death per game, and damage dealt per match.

[Khobai]

Clans are OP because they grow super testubebabies in vats filled with IS tears.

Quote

Damage output, mech speed, and heat efficiency I think top that list. If you can compare those numbers against each other it tends to be what defines the "meta mechs", the sub optimal or "underperforming" mechs are in almost all cases outclassed in all three aspects by other mechs.

Being better pilots tops the list. The fact clans have siphoned off more experienced players cant be ignored.

Thats the main reason why faction play needs mixed IS/clan teams like quickplay. That way you get the more experienced clan players on both teams. And now that its timeline appropriate to have mixed teams they should do it. Its not uncommon at all for IS/clan to fight alongside eachother in 3068.

Removing the IS vs Clan imbalance simply by allowing mixed teams and no longer pitting IS vs Clan against eachother is by far the easiest way to fix the problem. Thats why quickplay feels much more balanced than faction play.

Edited by Khobai, 11 May 2017 - 02:32 AM.

[Zergling]

Here's a comparison of 5x ER Large Grasshopper 5P versus 4x ER Large Hellbringer (Hellby doesn't have ECM because the Grasshopper doesn't either).

Both mechs need to stagger their alphas; Grasshopper takes 1.5625 seconds to complete its alpha, versus 2.00 seconds for the Hellbringer.
Grasshopper alpha does 45 damage, versus 44 damage for the Hellbringer.

Grasshopper alpha generates 40 heat and with 3.68 heat dissipation per second, dissipates that heat in 10.87 seconds. Net heat gain is an average of 5.60 per second.
Hellbringer alpha generates 40 heat and with 4.5425 heat dissipation per second, dissipates that heat in 8.81 seconds. Neat heat gain is an average of 3.88 per second.

Grasshopper has 39.67% heat efficiency, versus 53.94% for the Hellbringer.
Grasshopper has 4.14 sustained DPS, versus 5.00 for the Hellbringer.

Grasshopper requires a minimum of 102 damage to kill (side torso destruction) versus 124 damage for the Hellbringer (CT cored). This means the minimum damage to kill is 21.57% higher for the Hellbringer.


Grasshopper has an ER Large Laser beam duration of 1.0625 seconds, versus 1.5 seconds for the Hellbringer.
The first 2x ER Large Laser shot from the Hellbringer inflicts the full 22 damage. The second 2x ER Large Laser shot from the Hellbringer only has 1.0625 seconds of full damage before the Grasshopper has finished burning its own lasers, and starts twisting away.
The second 2x ER Large Laser shot from the Hellbringer is reduced to 15.58 damage as a result.

Total damage the Hellbringer does before the Grasshopper starts twisting away is 37.58; only 6.42 damage from the Hellbringer's alpha will be spread.

This means the Grasshopper is only doing 19.74% higher damage to a single component of the Hellbringer, than the Hellbringer is doing in return, yet the Hellbringer can sustain a minimum of 21.57% more damage than the Grasshopper before it dies.


In conclusion, the Hellbringer is running substantially cooler, has 9.62% greater effective range, and has a slight advantage in damage vs durability.
All else being equal (like player skill), the Hellbringer is the better mech.

Edited by Zergling, 11 May 2017 - 02:32 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Much better numbers than I did, total potato today

Q - Why do people take GHP-5P to comp over a HBR in the higher divisions then?