164 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Grasshopper requires a minimum of 102 damage to kill (side torso destruction) versus 124 damage for the Hellbringer (CT cored). This means the minimum damage to kill is 21.57% higher for the Hellbringer.

thats somewhat deceptive though because it assumes you arnt spreading damage around. the grasshopper can spread damage better because it has more total armor/structure across all its locations.

and it has a significantly shorter beam duration which means the grasshopper can twist sooner to spread damage. plus its got better agility and torso twisting due to quirks. and can accelerate/decelerate better, etc...

im gonna have to say in long range laser duel where its XL cant be explicitly targeted, the grasshopper has superior survivability to a hellbringer. at closer ranges where its XL can be sniped thats a different story, but if youre brawling in an ERLL grasshopper youre doing it wrong anyway.

the two mechs as presented are pretty equal IMO. only when you give the hellbringer ECM do I feel its slightly better (and why wouldnt you give it ECM).

Quote

Q - Why do people take GHP-5P to comp over a HBR in the higher divisions then?

better survivability would be my guess. also better lethality due to shorter beam duration.

and if you have other teammates that are providing ECM instead, then you dont need the hellbringers ECM. but youre pugging I think the hellbringer is better because you cant rely on pug teammates for ECM. I might rate ECM too highly, but I still think its a completely broken piece of equipment.

Edited by Khobai, 11 May 2017 - 03:00 AM.

[Zergling]

justcallme A S H, on 11 May 2017 - 02:44 AM, said:

Much better numbers than I did, total potato today

Q - Why do people take GHP-5P to comp over a HBR in the higher divisions then?

Dunno, I'm not a higher division player. Could be the flexibility of having jumpjets, could be the ability to run it with a standard engine, which will result in a much more durable mech (albeit rather slow).

Khobai, on 11 May 2017 - 02:44 AM, said:

thats somewhat deceptive though because it assumes you arnt spreading damage around.

Not deceptive at all; this is an equal situation where neither player has a skill or position advantage.

It is assuming each player is firing at the other simultaneously, focusing their damage to score a kill with minimal damage, and the player that finishes firing first twisting away to spread damage.

If one or both players are only firing a single shot then twisting, things become a fair bit more complicated.

Khobai, on 11 May 2017 - 02:44 AM, said:

the grasshopper can spread damage better because it has more total armor/structure across all its locations.

The Grasshopper's greater total armor/structure hit points would only be relevant if the mech was badly damaged across both side torsos, but in that situation the mech can't spread at all because it has an XL engine.

Khobai, on 11 May 2017 - 02:44 AM, said:

and it has a significantly shorter beam duration which means the grasshopper can twist sooner to spread damage. plus its got better agility and torso twisting due to quirks.

The Grasshopper doesn't have significnatly shorter beam duration; to fire its entire alpha takes 1.5625 seconds, versus 2.00 seconds for the Hellbringer.

The Grasshoppper fires 3x ER Large from 0 to 1.0625 seconds, and 2x ER Large from 0.5 to 1.5625 seconds.
The Hellbringer fires 2x ER Large from 0 to 1.50 seconds, and 2x ER Large from 0.5 to 2.00 seconds.

The 2nd shot of 2x ER Large from the Hellbringer is therefore firing from 0.5 to 1.5625 seconds before the Grasshopper starts twisting to spread damage, which is 1.0625 seconds of its 1.5 second duration, so each of those ER Large Lasers inflicts 70.83% of their maximum damage before the Grasshopper twists to spread damage.

Khobai, on 11 May 2017 - 02:44 AM, said:

im gonna have to say in long range laser duel where its XL cant be explicitly targeted, the grasshopper has superior survivability to a hellbringer.

Which is assuming a Hellbringer pilot with terrible aiming skill that can't pinpoint the side torso of the Grasshopper.

Given the Hellbringer can run ECM at the cost of a single heat sink (and it will still be far cooler running than the Grasshopper if it does that), it can sacrifice Radar Deprivation module for Advanced Zoom, allowing even less than great players to pinpoint the Grasshopper's side torso from long range.

Edited by Zergling, 11 May 2017 - 03:08 AM.

[Lily from animove]

@Zergling, why can you not spread damage due to XL? the ideal twisting would provide you with 1 1 1 hp across your torsi before one of them blows up. (ok thats upertheoretical) but in the end if you spread and twist properly you WILL have not much of a survivability difference between clan XL and IS XL. And the grasshoper has also some better geometry for twisting damage off.

Edited by Lily from animove, 11 May 2017 - 03:09 AM.

[Zergling]

Lily from animove, on 11 May 2017 - 03:09 AM, said:

@Zergling, why can you not spread damage due to XL? the ideal twisting would provide you with 1 1 1 hp across your torsi before one of them blows up. (ok thats upertheoretical) but in the end if you spread and twist properly you WILL have not much of a survivability difference between clan XL and IS XL. And the grasshoper has also some better geometry for twisting damage off.

Because if the IS XL engined mech is badly damaged on both sides, it only has to lose one of them to die. It can't spread damage to its other side torso that is similarly damaged, and if it faces front on, the enemy will just shoot a side torso anyway.

A Clan XL engined mech that is badly damaged on both sides can lose a side torso, then continue to use that side and the CT to shield the other side torso.

Zergling, on 11 May 2017 - 03:04 AM, said:

If one or both players are only firing a single shot then twisting, things become a fair bit more complicated.

Did some working out.


If the Grasshopper fires 3x ER Large (with 1.0625 second beam duration) then twists to spread damage, it will deliver 27 damage.

If the Grasshopper is doing this, it is still best for the Hellbringer to continue firing both salvos of 2x ER Large Lasers.
The first 2x ER Large will have 1.0625 of 1.50 second beam duration before the Grasshopper twists, which equals 15.58 damage.
The second 2x ER Large will have 0.5625 of 1.50 second beam duration before the Grasshopper twists, which equals 8.25 damage.
That equals out to 23.83 damage done to the Grasshopper before it twists to spread damage.

The Hellbringer should then twist to take the next 2x ER Large from the Grasshopper to a side torso.


That is 27 versus 23.83 damage to the preferred component target of each mech, so the Grasshopper is only doing 13.32% more damage to the CT of the Hellbringer versus the damage the Hellbringer does to a side torso of the Grasshopper.

Given the Hellbringer has 21.57% more CT hit points than the Grasshopper has side torso hitpoints, this is a losing proposition for the Grasshopper; it is going to lose a side torso before it cores the Hellbringer's CT.


The trickiest part is the reset; does the Grasshopper twist away again, then back to shoot its 3x ER Large, or does it wait for the Hellbringer to twist back?
And if it does wait, what if the Hellbringer feints a twist back to get the Grasshopper to waste its shot on a side torso?

It is honestly better to just assume they both reset to a neutral position, by assuming each player is of equal skill and won't be fooled by those sorts of things.

Edited by Zergling, 11 May 2017 - 03:26 AM.

[Lily from animove]

if you rolled properly you can't use the CT anymore to shield the other side because then your CT is also already at low health which means the damage transfer would kill you.

the scenrios you describe are those where different torsi health pools differ a lot, which means spreading already failed.

Edited by Lily from animove, 11 May 2017 - 03:31 AM.

[Bud Crue]

justcallme A S H, on 10 May 2017 - 11:47 PM, said:

Because that is how you count it? Maybe you're as tired as I am right now.

So I'll tell you a story... On Frozen City. Across the great expanse as two teams camp their base on Assault for 5mins.

...hilarious

OK, now that was funny.

Back to balance. As a filthy casual, like skill debates I probably have no business commenting as to the intricacies of balance down to the level of the analysis that the above posters are focusing (e.g. one mech/build/tech being determined better based on 1/8 of a second difference, etc.), but I have played this game long enough to where I am confident that I know what I know and what I know is that even at my low level of play I felt like balance was fairly close until the Kodak-3 arrived and it has all gone to shi7 (relatively speaking since then).

The main balance issue that I see in this game is indeed the CXL being the biggest crutch that the Clann get to rely on vs the use of quirks for the IS's "balancing" mechanism/crutch. I think with a few more structure/armor swaps/supplements akin to what PGI has done with the Victor, Cataphract, Orion, etc. that trade off would have been pretty close to achieving asymmetrical parity.

Then the predominance of the Kodak-3, the Night Gyr, and others provided the Clans with two mechs capable of throwing out high mounted PPFLD alphas of between 40-50 (+5, +10) and that changed everything.

When the players quickly realized the advantages of this, PGI and their dart board scrambled to much with quirks, weapons performance, and other variables and have now made a right royal mess of things on a level not seen since the IS and the uber energy range quirks and structure of late phase 2.

So yes, I think the clan XL is a crutch, but the crutch of quirks that the IS enjoys was doing a decent job of balancing one against the other until the rise of the PPFLD meta brought forth by the Kodak-3, the Night Gyr, etc. It was their arrival on the scene, followed by the nerfing of weapons systems that has lead us to the mess we are in. Now as a consequence we are playing a game where even the most reasonable aficionados on either side of the tech divide present as a position of reasonableness that IS can be competitive in this enviornment if they take a Grasshopper 5P running 5ERLL or a Battlemaster running 5LPLs or 5ERLL and essentially nothing else.

Lets assume that this is true.
Fine. The IS have two potential answers to Clan dominance.

That isn't just imbalanced, its stupid and boring in a game where half the fun is building and playing a variety of options. Yet we are in position where even the most open minded of players are willing to acknowledge that "sure IS can be competitive with clan mechs as long as they play these 1-2 mechs (some folks add the Warhammer and I even see the occasional Thunderbolt mentioned as well) with these 1-2 builds (high mounted ERLL or LPL and lots of em).

Sorry, but that is not balanced. At best it is a workable use of the resources available. It's also not much fun.

[Zergling]

Lily from animove, on 11 May 2017 - 03:30 AM, said:

if you rolled properly you can't use the CT anymore to shield the other side because then your CT is also already at low health which means the damage transfer would kill you.

the scenrios you describe are those where different torsi health pools differ a lot, which means spreading already failed.

Assume a mech with 1 point of structure remaining in the LT, RT and CT.

If it is an IS XL, if it takes 1 point of damage to any of those torso locations, it dies.
If it is a Clan XL, it will survive 1 point of damage to either the LT or RT, but die if it takes 1 point to the CT, or 1 point to both side torsos.

And note that damage that hits a dead side torso will suffer a 40% penalty as it transfers, so a Clan mech effectively using a side torso shield without taking any direct damage to the CT, will take 1 + 1.67 damage to kill.

So even in an unrealistically ideal scenario where damage has been perfectly spread between the 3 torso locations, Clan XL still comes out ahead.

Edited by Zergling, 11 May 2017 - 03:39 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Because if the IS XL engined mech is badly damaged on both sides, it only has to lose one of them to die.

thats why you torso twist your less damaged side towards the enemy so the more damaged side doesnt get hit

and if both your side torsos are badly damaged, youve already tanked more damage than a hellbringer couldve taken to just its CT.

grasshopper has shorter beam duration (can twist away sooner), better armor, much better structure, better torso twist, better agility, and while its taller than the hellbringer, its CT doesnt jut out like the hellbringer's CT does. so yeah im still gonna have to say the grasshopper has better survivability provided the pilot torso twists to spread the damage around.

Quote

So even in an unrealistically ideal scenario where damage has been perfectly spread between the 3 torso locations, Clan XL still comes out ahead.

except youre ignoring every other factor listed above. its the combination of all those factors that make the grasshopper more survivable. yeah it doesnt have CXL, but its got better survivability in virtually every other way that matters.

and mechs dont start at 1/1/1 health so your example is ridiculous.

And in order to get the grasshopper down to 1/1/1 it wouldve had to have tanked way more damage than a hellbringer anyway.

Edited by Khobai, 11 May 2017 - 04:09 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Zergling, on 11 May 2017 - 03:36 AM, said:

Assume a mech with 1 point of structure remaining in the LT, RT and CT.

If it is an IS XL, if it takes 1 point of damage to any of those torso locations, it dies.
If it is a Clan XL, it will survive 1 point of damage to either the LT or RT, but die if it takes 1 point to the CT, or 1 point to both side torsos.

And note that damage that hits a dead side torso will suffer a 40% penalty as it transfers, so a Clan mech effectively using a side torso shield without taking any direct damage to the CT, will take 1 + 1.67 damage to kill.

So even in an unrealistically ideal scenario where damage has been perfectly spread between the 3 torso locations, Clan XL still comes out ahead.

yes against flamers and MG any other wepaons deals more damage unless you fire at unsuited ranges.
And now you limit the scenario to the last 3 H which is invalid as you need to take this scenario into account from the previous 100% health since then the "survival" difference is negliable. All you try is to bending scenarios to your arguments favour but they stopped beeing objectively.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 11 May 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

thats why you torso twist your less damaged side towards the enemy so the more damaged side doesnt get hit

and if both your side torsos are badly damaged, youve already tanked more damage than a hellbringer couldve taken to just its CT.

so yeah im still gonna have to say the grasshopper has better survivability provided the pilot torso twists to spread the damage around.

Typically, in a long range duel as a Grasshopper 5P vs a Hellbringer, I'll just take their Left torso, and move onto a another target (the hellbringer usually just ejects, or can stand in there and use their last remaining head LL, effectively neutered). It takes 86 damage to take out a Hellbringer ST. To win the initial trade as a Grasshopper (or any mech really) get the jump on them by locating and firing first. Full alpha of 5 ERLL + ghost heat sends the Grasshopper heat bar to about 79%, which allows a second 3ERLL after cooldown. That's 45 + 27 = 72 damage. If you do it right, that Hellbringer now has a cherry red LT, and will be very hesitant to poke you again. Even if you go straight CT, they will be red armored at 72 damage taken to CT.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 11 May 2017 - 04:03 AM.

[Baulven]

Exilyth, on 10 May 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

I feel like this one comes down mostly to Catapract vs Hellbringer - the Cataphract is seldomly used while the Hellbringer is a 10ton lighter Timber Wolf (Comparable to the difference between Thunderbolt and Warhammer on the IS side).

Clan ECM Heavy is usefull -> shows up more -> clans have ECM more often (and with just 3-4 HBR most of their team is covered).

Similar to the Cataphract, the other inner sphere ECM heavy, the ARC-T (aside from costing MC), is not very usefull in FW due to the low cockpit, the low and wide arm hardpoints and not being XL safe.

For Assaults, you'll see the MAD-IIC more than the Atlas or Cyclops, and when you do, it's often the IS mechs being the variants without ECM.

Hellbringer is solid but it's not the lighter timber wolf. Tbat would be the ebony jag.

Tarogato, on 10 May 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

[/indent]Not quite true. Some of the best clan mechs run stock pods, or aren't even omnimechs at all.



- The NVA with 12 cSPL is their best medium brawler right now, and that runs stock pods on the Prime config.
- The Hunchback IIC is their best ranged medium, and it's not an omnimech.
- The Marauder IIC is their best assault, and it's not an omnimech.
- The Orion IIC is one of if not their best heavy brawler, and it's not an omnimech.
- The Jenner IIC is one of the best lights in the game, whether it's SPL or splat, and it's not an omnimech.
- The Maddog is another one of their best heavy brawlers, and it runs stock pods on the A config.
- The Summoner is another one of the best heavy brawlers in the game, and it runs stock B config pods.
- The Viper is their best light and tonnage filler, and it runs stock pods on the C config.
- Splat Stormcrows are usually running the stock D config.
- Some very viable builds on the Cauldron Born use the stock A config pods. Such as gauss PPC, and two UAC10 + backup lasers
- Laservomit can be run on the stock A or particularly the B configs of the Cauldron Born. That stock B is probably the most used mech in the clan arsenal at the moment in CW.
- Night Gyr is the best poptart in the game, and it can be run on the stock Prime or stock hero omnipods.
- Another mech I've been seeing surprisingly often lately is the WHK with quad cERPPC, which is the stock Prime config.


Now for the mechs that do benefit from omnipod swapping:

- Brawler Timberwolf
- Laservomit Timber
- Pinpoint Timber (which isn't quite as good as the NTG running the same build)
- Dual gauss NTG (usually better the the dual PPC NTG, but depends on the map)
- Dakka NTG
- 12 cSPL Stormcrow (rare)
- 12 cSPL Gargoyle (rare)
- Any Hellbringer (which is usually outclassed by the EBJ-B laservomit)
- PPC Summoners (which seem to be kinda rare
- Any Huntsman that isn't dual PPC (which is stock config on the -C)
- Any Ice Ferret (actually relatively common)
- Any Cheetah (admittedly, the best light in the game)



As you can see, there are at least as many battlemech or stock pod omni's that permeate the clan meta, at least when it comes to high level builds.

Mad IIC spreads well but it still doesn't out perform high hard points of the KDK. It's not seen as big of a threat so people don't treat it like an assault and gets to push people's faces in is the reason it does so well.

[justcallme A S H]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 11 May 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

Typically, in a long range duel as a Grasshopper 5P vs a Hellbringer, I'll just take their Left torso, and move onto a another target (the hellbringer usually just ejects, or can stand in there and use their last remaining head LL, effectively neutered). It takes 86 damage to take out a Hellbringer ST. To win the initial trade as a Grasshopper (or any mech really) get the jump on them by locating and firing first. Full alpha of 5 ERLL + ghost heat sends the Grasshopper heat bar to about 79%, which allows a second 3ERLL after cooldown. That's 45 + 27 = 72 damage. If you do it right, that Hellbringer now has a cherry red LT, and will be very hesitant to poke you again. Even if you go straight CT, they will be red armored at 72 damage taken to CT.

+1

This is what I usually do in FP, the first initial trade can often be quite valuable. Puts the HBR on the back foot badly.

Wouldn't do it in comp, but ye - different modes, different play.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 11 May 2017 - 04:51 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

I rather think it's more along the lines of IS being woefully underpowered in comparison, from resizes to disappearing quirks and inferior tech.

Yeah, there are some pretty stupid good clan mechs. There's also mechs like the mist lynx and ice ferret that suffer greatly at the hands of blanket nerfs.

[AphexTwin11]

justcallme A S H, on 10 May 2017 - 08:12 PM, said:

Point 1 is the only real imbalance in the game out of your list.


2. Clan range is not a balance issue. It is balanced. Clan has longer burn times, hotter weapons, must run more DHS. IS beats this by closing the ranging, using higher agility and the sizeable quirks

3. Clan can die via ammo in a torso, if it's already lost a torso or a open CT with ammo in it. CASE does not prevent this. So, irrelevant.

4.1 Yet the most brutal mech in the game, the KDK3, is a Battlemech... Ok.
4.2 If you need ECM to be able to play, or can't play against it... You have bigger problems

5. Yet many Omni mechs, that you said were a huge advantage, are hard locked? The HBR for instance suffers badly from locked tonnage. Again, balanced.

6. Rubbish. Learn to close distance or use IS mechs with range quirks/modules. EG: BLKNT 7 - IS LPL range is LONGER than cERML or BLR1G IS ERLL has the same range as a cERL mech. Again, play to the quirks.

7. I'm very experienced yet I don't agree with 2-6 at all. We only use Clan Tech heavily in comp becuase of #1 in your list.


If you started with point #1 and then added "#2" in that, Clan PPFLD/Poptarting - and stopped there - for balance issues... I'd be wholeheartedly agreeing with you. Most of what you are saying is first and foremost not knowing how to pilot the mechs you are using if you are not performing well in QP/FP.

DAMN. OP rekt gg close

[Zergling]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 11 May 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

Typically, in a long range duel as a Grasshopper 5P vs a Hellbringer, I'll just take their Left torso, and move onto a another target (the hellbringer usually just ejects, or can stand in there and use their last remaining head LL, effectively neutered). It takes 86 damage to take out a Hellbringer ST. To win the initial trade as a Grasshopper (or any mech really) get the jump on them by locating and firing first. Full alpha of 5 ERLL + ghost heat sends the Grasshopper heat bar to about 79%, which allows a second 3ERLL after cooldown. That's 45 + 27 = 72 damage. If you do it right, that Hellbringer now has a cherry red LT, and will be very hesitant to poke you again. Even if you go straight CT, they will be red armored at 72 damage taken to CT.

You're thinking of the Grasshopper 5H with its -15% energy heat generation quirk, not the Grasshopper 5P, which doesn't have any heat gen quirks.

5x IS ER Large Laser causes 64 heat with ghost heat penalties; 10 engine + 8 external heat sinks is a maximum heat capacity of 68, so firing all five ER Larges at once is 94.17% heat, and will likely lead to a shutdown if the Grasshopper is moving (or on a hot map).

With the Grasshopper 5H, the heat is reduced to 54.4, which brings it to 80% of maximum heat. It would dissipate 16.56 heat in the next 4.5 seconds, and it could then fire another salvo of 3x ER Large, which would bring it to 95.35% heat, which makes a shutdown likely.


The Hellbringer can fire an alpha of all four of its Clan ER Large Lasers, and only generate 59.20 heat, which is 80% of its maximum heat (with 22 double heat sinks, 78.41% with 23 doubles).
In the next 4.75 seconds it dissipates 21.58 heat, and then fire another 2x ER Large bringing it back to 76.32% heat.
Alternatively, the Hellbringer could fire 3x ER Large instead of 2x, which will bring it to 99.10% heat (and a shutdown is very likely).


If a Grasshopper 5P and Hellbringer are both alpha striking each other, the Grasshopper is going to shut down far sooner than the Hellbringer, and the Grasshopper will be shut down for longer too.

[Natred]

Pilot skill and team work makes up for any discrepancy in tech. The balance is as close as not as even as its ever been I have heard. I pperform well with all of my inner sphere mechs in my recent collection. I run standard engines on 3/4 of my inner sphere fleet, whcih includes warhammers, thunderbolts and battlemasters. They seem to have a higher win rate and mediocere kd due to raw tankiness and skills. For example i have a 12.0 win loss ratio on a blackjack.. i would not bring trial mechs or unmastered atleast elited mechs into faction play. Good way to gimp your team. By the way faction stats seem to be unresetting so whatever derping you do before you "git good" will stick.

[Tarogato]

Baulven, on 11 May 2017 - 04:12 AM, said:

Mad IIC spreads well but it still doesn't out perform high hard points of the KDK. It's not seen as big of a threat so people don't treat it like an assault and gets to push people's faces in is the reason it does so well.

It's also 15 tons lighter.

I've seen zero Kodiaks in CW. 100 tons is too much.

[Emeraudes]

El Bandito, on 11 May 2017 - 02:20 AM, said:

Combination of WLR, KDR, kills/death per game, and damage dealt per match.

My metric for my performance is less game-stat based. It's based on a perceived average alphas per kill, damage per kill, time to kill and amount of damage taken before being killed.

So by those metrics, Alphas per kill, damage per kill and time to kill should all be low for my performance to be rated good. Amount of damage taken before being killed should be as high as possible.

IS mechs fulfill all those just as well as clan mechs cause i end up with very low damage numbers and a lot of kmdds and kills.

Clan mechs actually end up netting me worse damage to kill numbers(by worse I mean higher) even though the time to kill is about the same.

Edited by Emeraudes, 11 May 2017 - 06:32 AM.

[nehebkau]

@OP

EVERYONE who has played this game for a while knows that PGI screwed up majorly when introducing the clans and their advanced tech -- its old news.

Yes clan tech is much better than IS tech, PGI got that part right. Unfortunately PGI's poor game-design decisions (They failed to account for adding clan-tech and the associated balance issues when doing the initial game designs) resulted in PGI being unable to add the things that balanced out clan tech. (i.e. drop sizes and clan-culture based limits on what clan players can do and how they act).

The important thing, and the thing that will get you pissed off with PGI, is that PGI knows all of those issues and refuse to just come out an acknowledge that they f-ed up and are unwilling to make any meaningful changes to actually fix it so with every new mech or balancing-band-aid (quirks, skill-tree) the game-balance goes out the window. So, its not stupidity on PGI's part but willful suppression of critical evaluation, dissenting opinions and isolating their decision making from any outside influences that constantly puts us in this sea-sawing quagmire.

Edited by nehebkau, 11 May 2017 - 06:58 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Zergling, on 11 May 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

You're thinking of the Grasshopper 5H with its -15% energy heat generation quirk, not the Grasshopper 5P, which doesn't have any heat gen quirks.

5x IS ER Large Laser causes 64 heat with ghost heat penalties; 10 engine + 8 external heat sinks is a maximum heat capacity of 68, so firing all five ER Larges at once is 94.17% heat, and will likely lead to a shutdown if the Grasshopper is moving (or on a hot map).

Ambient temp. Long range maps = cold maps, usually.

On Polar I get to to ~74% firing 5ERL and 1SML in the alpha if I'm lazy and don't fire the groups. I forget that 5 ERL alpha but Vxh's numbers are about right give or take 2-3%?

I wouldn't bring ERL to Terra for example and most neutral maps are not ERL worthwhile.