164 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 May 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

I think the twice as good endo and 3.5 times as good ferro is a bigger factor than the XL, personally. It allows stronger initial builds, which matter more than being able to survive an ST loss a lot of the time.

well though i do feel that Ferro bonus should be doubled for IS(as this would be a Huge Boon for IS)
on a 100Ton IS Mech(Light-Ferro= 2Tons/7Crits)(STD-Ferro= 4Tons/14Crits)(Heavy-Ferro= 8Tons/21Crits)
if Ferro was Doubled for IS, and Heavy Ferro Was released, Heavy Ferro could help with balance,
on a 100Ton Clan Mech(C-Ferro= 3.1Tons/7Crits)

Widowmaker1981, on 11 May 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

The XL is a big factor though, especially psychologically, and yes the IS XL should be changed to survive ST loss. Immobility is too harsh as well, might as well be dead. I think identical penalties to the C-XL would be fine, especially since it is bigger anyway, and the cooling loss would hurt IS mechs more (due to bigger DHS they rely more heavily on engine mounted sinks)

i would agree that Immobilization is abit harsh, but i think it would be a good starting point,
to keep things feeling different, this could always be changed later on, if the balance is too harsh,

Kin3ticX, on 11 May 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

Clans also make it easier to build dropdecks for CW.

Often if you have 3 IS variants of the same mech only 1 of them is considered any good if that. (so you need dupes, and no everyone is willing to get dupes)

its less Dupes, and more because OmniMechs(which most Clan Mechs are) move the same speed,
97kph-81kph, as most Clan mechs move these Speeds reguardless of builds they usually stay together in a push,
for IS mechs all being BattleMechs you often get speeds ranging from 140kph through 50kph,
this makes it harder for IS mechs to stay together when pushing into a large area(as FP)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 11 May 2017 - 09:39 AM.

[OrmsbyGore]

Zergling, on 11 May 2017 - 02:31 AM, said:

Here's a comparison of 5x ER Large Grasshopper 5P versus 4x ER Large Hellbringer (Hellby doesn't have ECM because the Grasshopper doesn't either).

Both mechs need to stagger their alphas; Grasshopper takes 1.5625 seconds to complete its alpha, versus 2.00 seconds for the Hellbringer.
Grasshopper alpha does 45 damage, versus 44 damage for the Hellbringer.

Grasshopper alpha generates 40 heat and with 3.68 heat dissipation per second, dissipates that heat in 10.87 seconds. Net heat gain is an average of 5.60 per second.
Hellbringer alpha generates 40 heat and with 4.5425 heat dissipation per second, dissipates that heat in 8.81 seconds. Neat heat gain is an average of 3.88 per second.

Grasshopper has 39.67% heat efficiency, versus 53.94% for the Hellbringer.
Grasshopper has 4.14 sustained DPS, versus 5.00 for the Hellbringer.

Grasshopper requires a minimum of 102 damage to kill (side torso destruction) versus 124 damage for the Hellbringer (CT cored). This means the minimum damage to kill is 21.57% higher for the Hellbringer.


Grasshopper has an ER Large Laser beam duration of 1.0625 seconds, versus 1.5 seconds for the Hellbringer.
The first 2x ER Large Laser shot from the Hellbringer inflicts the full 22 damage. The second 2x ER Large Laser shot from the Hellbringer only has 1.0625 seconds of full damage before the Grasshopper has finished burning its own lasers, and starts twisting away.
The second 2x ER Large Laser shot from the Hellbringer is reduced to 15.58 damage as a result.

Total damage the Hellbringer does before the Grasshopper starts twisting away is 37.58; only 6.42 damage from the Hellbringer's alpha will be spread.

This means the Grasshopper is only doing 19.74% higher damage to a single component of the Hellbringer, than the Hellbringer is doing in return, yet the Hellbringer can sustain a minimum of 21.57% more damage than the Grasshopper before it dies.


In conclusion, the Hellbringer is running substantially cooler, has 9.62% greater effective range, and has a slight advantage in damage vs durability.
All else being equal (like player skill), the Hellbringer is the better mech.

don't forget that the almost even ranges are due to quirks on the GHP-5P, whereas any hellbringer has a 740 optimal range with their ERLL, and that the hellbringer only needs 4 ERLL to come 1 point shy of the grashopper's ERLL alpha

[Weeny Machine]

Khobai, on 11 May 2017 - 02:26 AM, said:

Clans are OP because they grow super testubebabies in vats filled with IS tears.



Being better pilots tops the list. The fact clans have siphoned off more experienced players cant be ignored.

Thats the main reason why faction play needs mixed IS/clan teams like quickplay. That way you get the more experienced clan players on both teams. And now that its timeline appropriate to have mixed teams they should do it. Its not uncommon at all for IS/clan to fight alongside eachother in 3068.

Removing the IS vs Clan imbalance simply by allowing mixed teams and no longer pitting IS vs Clan against eachother is by far the easiest way to fix the problem. Thats why quickplay feels much more balanced than faction play.

Now ask yourself why most of the competetive players went to clan side. Hint: those are usually also those who care for min/maxing

[OrmsbyGore]

Khobai, on 11 May 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

thats why you torso twist your less damaged side towards the enemy so the more damaged side doesnt get hit

and if both your side torsos are badly damaged, youve already tanked more damage than a hellbringer couldve taken to just its CT.

I may be mistaken, but it seems like for some reason your hypothetical hellbringer pilot isn't torso twisting. If you consider that the hellbringer can sacrifice an entire side torso, then expose it's other side torso until all the armor is gone, then expose it's destroyed side and negate 60% of incoming damage (and that's assuming all the damage only hits the STs and doesn't get spread to the CT), then the hellbringer isn't as fragile as you made it seem.

[OrmsbyGore]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 May 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

personally i dont think OmniMechs are a source of imbalance,
as battlemechs have many more advantages then OmniMechs,

Example
make any Stock OmniMech a BattleMech Add +1 / +2 hard points as per hard point inflation,
and you will find that your new battle mech will be better than your old OmniMech,


personally i feel the only real imbalance with IS / Clan is the XL engine,
i would like to see IS-XLs survive ST loss, but become Immobile to start,
Test and see what happens, id love to see the results,

but you can increase # of hardpoints by swapping out omnimechs , even change the location of hardpoint types. no such luck for the IS

[Gyrok]

Exilyth, on 10 May 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

I feel like this one comes down mostly to Catapract vs Hellbringer - the Cataphract is seldomly used while the Hellbringer is a 10ton lighter Timber Wolf (Comparable to the difference between Thunderbolt and Warhammer on the IS side).

Clan ECM Heavy is usefull -> shows up more -> clans have ECM more often (and with just 3-4 HBR most of their team is covered).

Similar to the Cataphract, the other inner sphere ECM heavy, the ARC-T (aside from costing MC), is not very usefull in FW due to the low cockpit, the low and wide arm hardpoints and not being XL safe.

For Assaults, you'll see the MAD-IIC more than the Atlas or Cyclops, and when you do, it's often the IS mechs being the variants without ECM.

Then why do you see so many ARCs in FP?

Oh, that is right...it is because you do not need to care about low mounts when you are firing LRMs into the side of a mountain from 1200m away from the fight...

[R Valentine]

Zergling, on 11 May 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:

Well I don't have a Grasshopper to test, but a Hellbringer with 4x ER Large and 23 doubles will hit 66% after a single alpha on Polar (instead of the predicted 78.41% for a heat neutral map), 57% after one alpha + half an alpha, and I'm estimating around 105-110% after two alphas.


If they are trading alphas, the damage vs durability equations are in the Hellbringer's favor, as it will be delivering 44 damage per alpha while only needing to do 102 damage to score a kill, while the Grasshopper is delivering 45 damage per alpha while needing to do 124 damage to score a kill.

If however, the Grasshopper 5P is effectively twisting after firing an alpha (with 1.0625 beam duration), it can mitigate enough damage to the side torso the Hellbringer is targeting to win in the damage vs durability contest.


Eg, if both mechs are firing at the same time, and the Grasshopper stops taking damage to the side torso exactly on the 1.0625 second mark, then the Grasshopper will only suffer 31.17 damage to the side torso per exchange, while delivering 45 damage to the Hellbringer's CT.

That is 42.1% more damage being done to the Hellbringer per exchange, more than enough to overcome the Hellbringer requiring 21.57% more damage to kill.


One caveat however; it isn't exactly realistic for the Grasshopper to stop taking damage to its side torso the instant it starts twisting.
It is probably going to be at least 1 or 2 tenths of a second longer before the Hellbringer's beams are off target.

Eg, if the Hellbringer gets 1.2625 seconds of beam duration on the Grasshopper's side torso, it is doing 37 damage, so the Grasshopper is only doing 21.62% more damage than the Hellbringer per exchange.
At that point, they are equal and will kill each other at about the same moment. If the Hellbringer can keep its beams on target for longer, it wins the fight, but if it doesn't, it loses.





Fair enough.

No they aren't equal. The Hellbringer can survive a side torso loss. The Grasshopper can't. You're also assuming the Grasshopper pilots knows how to twist the Hellbringer doesn't. Here's a better test. Try pitting an IS ERPPC mech vs. a clan ERPPC mech and tell me who will win. I'll give you hint, it's not the one who's weapon generates more heat than damage and has no splash damage.

[OrmsbyGore]

Just to be clear, I am NOT arguing that clans and IS should have balanced mechs at this point, clan mechs are SUPPOSED to be better, I just want FW to be 12v10, which would help create some sort of competitive balance (and please get rid of quirks and skill trees, the only skills should be those you learn by playing, not RPG style upgrades).

I am also not taking away from the skill level of any clan pilots. What I AM saying is that the most skilled pilots in the game saw the advantages that the clans had (xl; weight, slots,range and damage compared to the same category IS weapon; the versatility of being able to swap out omnipods to change # and type of hardpoints and their location) and immediately went over.

to recap, it is not that clan tech gives pilots a crutch that replaces skill, it is that with equal skill levels a clan pilot has some pretty significant advantages.

[Insanity09]

As with all such threads, the use of hyperbole is rather overdone.

Clans OP? Not so much.
Do they have a technical edge? Certainly. FF/ES/DHS size, cXL, typical weapon range and weights. All that does add up to an advantage. Significant? Debatable, but certainly present.
Yes the IS has lower energy durations, but I'd say that's a wash on face value because while a shorter duration delivers the damage faster, the higher duration (often paired with higher overall damage) allows dealing of at least partial damage (esp. for folks who are less skilled aim-wise).

Does the current play style favor the clans? Yes. Current favored engagement ranges (400-800m typical?) tip the scales for the higher optimum (Clan). If the side that had the higher optimum range also had reduced effectiveness at closer range, that would balance things nicely, but this is NOT the case.
Yes, some weapons on both sides have high effectiveness in those ranges, but building every mech focusing only on those weapons simply isn't realistic.

[Exilyth]

Gyrok, on 11 May 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

Then why do you see so many ARCs in FP?

Because the ARC-5W makes for great splat builds and can got light hunting with the 9 SSRM build.
Then again, many other chassis outperform it in both roles.

[Daecollo]

IS are supposed to be better at "brawling" but Clan mechs are not only faster but have much better range so they don't even have to get close to do it better. They also have lighter weapons and way less mass and space to use them! Its ridiculous.

LRMs? Almost every Clan Mech in these battles has an ECM! Its pointless. Meanwhile only a few IS mechs can have them.

Give the Marauder a better engine (75-80) and let one of their mechs have an ECM! Why is the Marauder IIC (an assault.) similar then a typical marauder?

Edited by Daecollo, 11 May 2017 - 12:32 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

OrmsbyGore, on 11 May 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

but you can increase # of hardpoints by swapping out omnimechs , even change the location of hardpoint types. no such luck for the IS

but you only have what your Stock mechs have,
look at mechs like the SHC, which is hard point starved,
look at mechs like the GAR/WHK which have Ferro in stead of Endo,
look at mechs like the DWF which is ok, but doesnt have the speed to mater much,

OmniMechs can switch their hard points yes, but they pay for that with the in ability to change anything else,
BattleMechs can change their Upgrades and Engines, and also get hard point inflation,

for an OmniMech you ether have it or you dont(ACH, SCR, TBR, NTG)
you see BattleMechs replacing OmniMechs on the Clan Side(KDK>DWF)(MAD-IIC>WHK)
OmniMechs are locked to Field Retrofit in MWO, where as BattleMechs get Full Mech Factory Customization,
if for instance endo was allows to be unlocked for OmniMechs, only the Weak OmniMechs would benefit,

[R Valentine]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 May 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

but you only have what your Stock mechs have,
look at mechs like the SHC, which is hard point starved,
look at mechs like the GAR/WHK which have Ferro in stead of Endo,
look at mechs like the DWF which is ok, but doesnt have the speed to mater much,

OmniMechs can switch their hard points yes, but they pay for that with the in ability to change anything else,
BattleMechs can change their Upgrades and Engines, and also get hard point inflation,

for an OmniMech you ether have it or you dont(ACH, SCR, TBR, NTG)
you see BattleMechs replacing OmniMechs on the Clan Side(KDK>DWF)(MAD-IIC>WHK)
OmniMechs are locked to Field Retrofit in MWO, where as BattleMechs get Full Mech Factory Customization,
if for instance endo was allows to be unlocked for OmniMechs, only the Weak OmniMechs would benefit,

That's because clan omnimechs were created with at least some notion of balance of in mind. Clan battlemechs? No such thing. They're all designed with god hardpoints(with few exceptions), so they don't need to swap hard points. You literally couldn't place them better if you tried. All you need to do is beef up the engine and you're good to go.

[Andi Nagasia]

Kiran Yagami, on 11 May 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

That's because clan omnimechs were created with at least some notion of balance of in mind. Clan battlemechs? No such thing. They're all designed with god hardpoints(with few exceptions), so they don't need to swap hard points. You literally couldn't place them better if you tried. All you need to do is beef up the engine and you're good to go.

the thing is if Tech is balanced(i feel it is mostly(not including IS-XLs Upgrades)
if Tech is balanced, then BattleMechs are suppirior to OmniMechs, as BattleMechs are replacing Omni's Clan side,
im worried what will IS OmniMechs be like when they are finally released, i can bet they will not be viable,
this isnt a faction Problem, this is a BattleMech vs OmniMech Problem, which needs to be looked at,

[R Valentine]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 May 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

the thing is if Tech is balanced(i feel it is mostly(not including IS-XLs Upgrades) if Tech is balanced, then BattleMechs are suppirior to OmniMechs, as BattleMechs are replacing Omni's Clan side, im worried what will IS OmniMechs be like when they are finally released, i can bet they will not be viable, this isnt a faction Problem, this is a BattleMech vs OmniMech Problem, which needs to be looked at,

Because clan battlemechs take the best aspects of IS and the best aspects of clan and put them into one. Only they still go on the clan side anyways. Omnimechs have fixed slots for a reason, but PGI said "to hell with that" when they decided to introduce IICs with the best possible hard points.

[Alaric Hasek]

Having played both sides for a long time, I don't see much of an imbalance in tech.

Yes, there's the survival of a torso loss and higher range on energy weapons but these things aren't that important as we get nearer to the SKill Tree Era ™. Neither will the increased weapon ranges nor Hellbringer ECM - players that want range advantages will chase them down on the skill tree, while very few ECM users will be pleased with the coming ECM changes: the initial protection range is going to be severely cut down and to get that range back to 90m you'll be spending lots of skill points. Only the most dedicated unit player is going to invest a huge chunk of their skill points just to make ECM useful.

Go ahead, look at my stats and laugh. What does he know?

What I know is this: teams win games of Mechwarrior. No, that's not actually true. LEADERSHIP wins games of Mechwarrior. If you put a Clan team up against an equally well-led IS team, the win is going to come down to variables like maps and builds and decks and such. The Clan team is not necessarily going to win based on better 'mechs. During Tuky 3 I played on both sides with my unit and in skittle teams. What mattered wasn't really what side I was playing on or what 'mech I was playing in. What mattered was if someone was calling the drop and that the team was willing to follow. I played a Vitric defend siege in a skittles team vs a 6-man and skittles. We had a good caller, we were on defense, and the other team would just wander in one at a time to be focused down, so of course we won.

Anecdotal, I know, and no doubt lots of others have stories to prove otherwise, but that's what I see.

The mixed queue is dominated by LRMs, even though we all know that they're not competitive or meta. It's even more important in that environment to have leaders in matches who will convince the rest of the team to follow - to push, to be aggressive, or eventually everyone gets torn apart. It doesn't matter how many Hunchback-IICs, Mad-IICs, or Kodiaks a team has if they just stand there milling about and poking their heads now and then to waste armor.

All that said, we can debate this all day long, but PGI is looking at all the matches, not just the ones we see in our little corner of the game. Clearly they're not seeing a huge Clan advantage, or at least not once they're convinced is a problem. I think they've found that the Clan dominance in FP isn't Clan 'tech, it's because there are large, well-led units stomping all over a bunch of PUGs. Sure, there are good IS units, I mean them no disrespect, but there aren't enough of them.

PGI is clearly happy with the balance, to the point that they've been reducing quirks on both sides. They're probably seeing the same things I am - leadership is what's important, not how many points of damage a Hellbringer can do to a Grasshopper's side torso before the IS 'mech can start torso twisting.

[R Valentine]

Alaric Hasek, on 11 May 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

Clearly everything is balanced because PGI said so.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaa! Oh man, I needed a good laugh. And lol @ thinking the skill tree is gonna fix anything. IS is losing most of its quirks, and the clans aren't losing anything, so the imbalance is only going to get exponentially worse.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 May 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

but you only have what your Stock mechs have,
look at mechs like the SHC, which is hard point starved,
look at mechs like the GAR/WHK which have Ferro in stead of Endo,
look at mechs like the DWF which is ok, but doesnt have the speed to mater much,

OmniMechs can switch their hard points yes, but they pay for that with the in ability to change anything else,
BattleMechs can change their Upgrades and Engines, and also get hard point inflation,

for an OmniMech you ether have it or you dont(ACH, SCR, TBR, NTG)
you see BattleMechs replacing OmniMechs on the Clan Side(KDK>DWF)(MAD-IIC>WHK)
OmniMechs are locked to Field Retrofit in MWO, where as BattleMechs get Full Mech Factory Customization,
if for instance endo was allows to be unlocked for OmniMechs, only the Weak OmniMechs would benefit,

It isn't that simple. A very big part of the reason the KDK is better than the DWF is because it has very high mounts in addition to its engine. MADIIC is better than the WHK because the WHK is slaved to boating missiles, doesn't have ECM, doesn't have jump jets etc..

Ultimately, if you want to maintain the illusion that Clan mechs aren't better tha IS as a whole, then you have to pretend that everyone that plays IS is bringing the exact same dozen variants of mechs with exceptional hitboxes or hardpoint geometry, and either excellent perks or boaty numbers of hardpoints. "Bad" Clan mechs are absolutely lightyears ahead of bad IS mechs.

Every single one of these threads winnows down into some case study of a specific hyper-optimized IS build that's patch-specific against a generalized analogue on Clan that's probably been viable since that mech was released. Yeah, the Battlemaster is really excellent, and I have no problem dropping a lineup of Burger Kings with a tie-on CDA-3M, but what the am I supposed to do with the guy that brings a Vindicator of any type to a skirmish???

[Baulven]

Kiran Yagami, on 11 May 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

That's because clan omnimechs were created with at least some notion of balance of in mind. Clan battlemechs? No such thing. They're all designed with god hardpoints(with few exceptions), so they don't need to swap hard points. You literally couldn't place them better if you tried. All you need to do is beef up the engine and you're good to go.

The hardpoints is actually a graphical/mech design problem for initial models. They exacerbate the problem though, as the Kodiak3 would fall a peg or two if the top set of ballistic hard points was dropped to just above the waist.

[Insanity09]

I do not understand folks who try to argue that because teamwork (and communication, etc.) wins games, there is no tech imbalance between Clan/IS.
That's like saying that because you get better acceleration in a car by giving it more horsepower, making the car lighter is irrelevant.

The two factors are not mutually exclusive. BOTH factors contribute.