164 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

I may be mistaken, but it seems like for some reason your hypothetical hellbringer pilot isn't torso twisting.

hellbringer cant torso twist as well as the grasshopper, thats kindve the whole point I was making

longer beam duration means it has to face target longer, less agility quirks, no torso twist quirks, less armor/structure for spreading damage around more, etc...

[Trenchbird]

Monkey Lover, on 10 May 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

It's sad that this loadout doesn't seem like the absolute worst (Not out of place on, say, a Stormcrow, or even maybe a Timber if the pilot's a beginner), until you look to the left.

[MischiefSC]

A good super-nova build will get more damage/tic than any IS long range build. However it's a slow, heavy mech with low slung arms.

You can very effectively run 6 streak 6s on a Huntsman in scouting at 50 tons and with range module reach out to 396m. Had a match the other day that came down to 1 v 1 and the other guy was legged but I was cored all over. Managed to get back out of range and just farm him down. It matters. Plus the ability to, for example, run 2xLB10X and 3 er smalls on a Huntsman at 50 tons. If there wasn't a tonnage disparity IS to Clans right now then Clans would be crushing even harder. I'll run a MAD IIC vs a BLR all day/every day. Ton for ton Clan mechs have a bit of an advantage in the majority of builds and roles. That's why it's mostly clan mechs in comp.

There's some balance issues other than just CXL. However CXL is the biggest bear in the woods for issues with balance, far and away.

[Andi Nagasia]

Kiran Yagami, on 11 May 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

That's because clan omnimechs were created with at least some notion of balance of in mind. Clan battlemechs? No such thing. They're all designed with god hardpoints(with few exceptions), so they don't need to swap hard points. You literally couldn't place them better if you tried. All you need to do is beef up the engine and you're good to go.

not really, OmniMechs where never really designed to Balance Clan vs IS,
it helped in the beginning, but that was never the Design, it was more other Changes,
what helped was Clan Weapons being brought down some,

Kiran Yagami, on 11 May 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

Because clan battlemechs take the best aspects of IS and the best aspects of clan and put them into one. Only they still go on the clan side anyways. Omnimechs have fixed slots for a reason, but PGI said "to hell with that" when they decided to introduce IICs with the best possible hard points.

thats the problem, people need to stop seeing BattleMechs as IS things, and OmniMechs as Clan things,
both sides get both, and Right now OmniMechs are Inferior to BattleMechs, IS OmniMechs will Suffer as do Clan,
(not every Clan OmniMech is a ACH / SCR / TBR / NTG, Omni Rules need to change, or IS Omni's will be DOA)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 11 May 2017 - 06:32 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 May 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

not really, OmniMechs where never really designed to Balance Clan vs IS,
it helped in the beginning, but that was never the Design, it was more other Changes,
what helped was Clan Weapons being brought down some,

Moreover, it was to bring in more variety to pilots.

Weapons being brought down helped, but what didn't was when they tried balancing omnis based on pods. I honestly think that it's the tech and not the mechs that allow them to perform so well. Kodiak 3 is a good example. If It could only mount regular clan ACs, it wouldn't be as powerful or as good as other assaults.

Andi Nagasia, on 11 May 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

thats the problem, people need to stop seeing BattleMechs as IS things, and OmniMechs as Clan things,
both sides get both, and Right now OmniMechs are Inferior to BattleMechs, IS OmniMechs will Suffer as do Clan,
(not every Clan OmniMech is a ACH / SCR / TBR / NTG, Omni Rules need to change, or IS Omni's will be DOA)

The problem initially is that there is very little exposure to new players as to the meaning of Omni and Battlemechs. If this were introduced into the tutorial, then perhaps we would be able to quickly and better educate new players on the game and it's mechs.

Oh, and IS Omnis are a bad idea overall. That is, if they're using regular ol' XLs and not LFEs, which I imagine they will implement IS Omnis with LFEs.

[Andi Nagasia]

Scout Derek, on 11 May 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

The problem initially is that there is very little exposure to new players as to the meaning of Omni and Battlemechs. If this were introduced into the tutorial, then perhaps we would be able to quickly and better educate new players on the game and it's mechs.

this, but as they released Clan BattleMechs it pushed a diffrent feeling,
and sadly now all players see BattleMechs as only IS & Omni as only Clan,
the problem is the Lack of Lore integrated into MWO doesnt help,

players should be told why IS cant use IICs and what they are,
i hope that we see more Lore integrated into MWO so this is remedied,

Scout Derek, on 11 May 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

Oh, and IS Omnis are a bad idea overall. That is, if they're using regular ol' XLs and not LFEs, which I imagine they will implement IS Omnis with LFEs.

it will be hard on them with Current IS-XL rules,
but also we are working under Nerfed Omni Construction rules as well,
all OmniMechs can Equip Any OmniPod according to Lore, but not in MWO,
for balance perhaps it should be only Mechs per Type,

all Light Mechs have access to all Light Mech OmniPods ext,
though i feel this would solve many problems with OmniMechs, both IS and Clan,
i fear we are unlikely to see this happen,

[R Valentine]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 May 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

this, but as they released Clan BattleMechs it pushed a diffrent feeling,
and sadly now all players see BattleMechs as only IS & Omni as only Clan,
the problem is the Lack of Lore integrated into MWO doesnt help,

No, people don't think that. Omnimechs have always used fixed slots as a balancing factor. That's what people see. Throw in clan battlemechs and that balancing factor is obsolete. You end up with mechs they tried to balance and mechs they never even bothered with.

Andi Nagasia, on 11 May 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

players should be told why IS cant use IICs and what they are,
i hope that we see more Lore integrated into MWO so this is remedied,


it will be hard on them with Current IS-XL rules,
but also we are working under Nerfed Omni Construction rules as well,
all OmniMechs can Equip Any OmniPod according to Lore, but not in MWO,
for balance perhaps it should be only Mechs per Type,

all Light Mechs have access to all Light Mech OmniPods ext,

though i feel this would solve many problems with OmniMechs, both IS and Clan,
i fear we are unlikely to see this happen,

IS omnimechs should never be a thing in this game. Locking IS mechs to engines will ensure they are garbage. Lock a mech to an XL engine with poor hit boxes and it will never see use. PGI's refusal at any semblance of an attempt at engine parity has destroyed IS omnimechs before the idea ever popped into anyone's head.

[Andi Nagasia]

Kiran Yagami, on 11 May 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

No, people don't think that. Omnimechs have always used fixed slots as a balancing factor. That's what people see. Throw in clan battlemechs and that balancing factor is obsolete. You end up with mechs they tried to balance and mechs they never even bothered with.

OmniMechs in MWO are Stripped of alot of makes OmniMechs in TT amazing,
but them having Locked Engines and Upgrades wasnt a PGI balance too, nore was it a FASA balance tool,
it was just a different mech Construction Technique, and OmniMechs had features in TT they dont have here,
that said when they did come out with OmniMechs they did not have their Full OmniMech Capabilities,

but as MWO is striving for different but Equal approtch, and as both sides should have Omni & BattleMechs,
then OmniMechs should be equal to BattleMechs, as such right now they arnt, and this is a problem,

Kiran Yagami, on 11 May 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

IS omnimechs should never be a thing in this game. Locking IS mechs to engines will ensure they are garbage. Lock a mech to an XL engine with poor hit boxes and it will never see use. PGI's refusal at any semblance of an attempt at engine parity has destroyed IS omnimechs before the idea ever popped into anyone's head.

then perhaps we need to Expand OmniMech Construction Rules, so they arnt garbage,
you cant say (Insert Mech / Tech) shouldnt be in the Game because they would be garbage,
their are ways to make them viable, but this also requires that some OmniMech rules change,

[El Bandito]

justcallme A S H, on 11 May 2017 - 02:44 AM, said:

Much better numbers than I did, total potato today

Q - Why do people take GHP-5P to comp over a HBR in the higher divisions then?

ECM is very effective vs. non-comp players. In comp play everything in a fight is carried out with precision and they keep tab more accurately on just how much damage has been done to mech sections. And comp teams' eyesights and reflexes are incredible--which renders ECM less useful.

In CW and pug queue, players tend to focus on any mech that has been locked. And seeing how Grasshopper does not have ECM while Hellbringer has one, I bet the Grasshopper in general has much lower lifespan than the Hellbie.

Andi Nagasia, on 11 May 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

then perhaps we need to Expand OmniMech Construction Rules, so they arnt garbage,
you cant say (Insert Mech / Tech) shouldnt be in the Game because they would be garbage,
their are ways to make them viable, but this also requires that some OmniMech rules change,

Quirks can help with that. Currently none of the Clan omnimechs are straight up garbage. Unlike some IS battlemechs, or future IS omnis...

Edited by El Bandito, 12 May 2017 - 12:17 AM.

[Scout Derek]

El Bandito, on 11 May 2017 - 08:06 PM, said:

ECM is very effective vs. non-comp players. In comp play everything in a fight is carried out with precision and they keep tab more accurately on just how much damage has been done to mech sections. And their eyesights and reflexes are incredible--which renders ECM less useful.

In CW and pug queue, players tend to focus on any mech that has been locked. And seeing how Grasshopper does not have ECM while Hellbringer has one, I bet the Grasshopper in general has much lower lifespan than the Hellbie.

Yep, which kind of sucks.

I was in my maddog in faction play with good pugs vs bad. We stomped the other team, went outside walls to solo a Warhammer, I thought I was going to get screwed since there was also a roughneck and Stalker outside with it, but I didn't see them at all while fighting the Whammy pug. Killed him, Roughneck finally gets in, I kill him too, and finally the stalker comes in and dies as well.

I was impressed with myself, then not so much after realizing I just slaughtered three pugs. More shame when I ejected my mech because I had no more ammo.... :-(

Wish I had just went in and sacrificed my mech to give them a free kill....

[Templar Dane]

El Bandito, on 11 May 2017 - 08:06 PM, said:

Quirks can help with that. Currently none of the Clan omnimechs are straight up garbage. Unlike some IS battlemechs, or future IS omnis...

Mist lynx?
Ice ferret?
Gargles?
Executioner?

[Davegt27]

Dane you missed it the other week someone was trying to say how good the IFR was

[Hanky Spam]

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

Mist lynx?
Ice ferret?
Gargles?
Executioner?

- Mist Lynx: It is not garbage, though it's not ******* awesome too. The Mist Lynx is "okay", nothing more nothing less, though I would always prefer the ACH if the remaining drop-deck tonnage allows it.
- Ice Ferret: Has seen enough buffs to be now a viable medium omnimech.
- Gargoyle: Afaik only useful as a SPL/SERL brawler. I dont know any other viable build for this omnimech, so it's under the bottom line rather more "meh".
- Executioner: Not a fan of it either. Not enough meta'ish hardpoints due to low hanging arms.
Can't put much on it due to locked pods and MASC and for other builds like ballistics Clan have better assault mechs available.

So all in all, El Bandito is almost right, but not completely in my opinion

[R Valentine]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 May 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

OmniMechs in MWO are Stripped of alot of makes OmniMechs in TT amazing, but them having Locked Engines and Upgrades wasnt a PGI balance too, nore was it a FASA balance tool, it was just a different mech Construction Technique, and OmniMechs had features in TT they dont have here, that said when they did come out with OmniMechs they did not have their Full OmniMech Capabilities, but as MWO is striving for different but Equal approtch, and as both sides should have Omni & BattleMechs, then OmniMechs should be equal to BattleMechs, as such right now they arnt, and this is a problem, then perhaps we need to Expand OmniMech Construction Rules, so they arnt garbage, you cant say (Insert Mech / Tech) shouldnt be in the Game because they would be garbage, their are ways to make them viable, but this also requires that some OmniMech rules change,

Only PGI will never do any of those things. They'll never change omnimech rules. They'll never fix engine parity. They'll never bring omnis up to battlemech levels. PGI doesn't fix things. They flat out refuse to. So yes, IS omnimechs will be garbage if they ever attempt to implement them and it should never even be attempted. Not by PGI.

[El Bandito]

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

Mist lynx?
Ice ferret?
Gargles?
Executioner?

The Lynx does decent damage for a 25 ton mech, but is overshadowed by the Cheetos. Lynx is far better than the likes of Spider-5V, or Commando.

Ice Ferret is comp worthy Medium mech. How did you even think of including it?

Gargles and Executioner are both not garbage thanks to Clan lasers. They can do good numbers at brawl and mid range. Certainly more reliable than the likes of Victor.

But hey, don't quote me on this, ask around and see which side the majority will agree with.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 May 2017 - 12:16 AM.

[Voormas]

Vanguard319, on 10 May 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

Been losing all night. All these "clans is op" whiners are full of ****. IS can win and win big if you're not incompetent.

Not really reflected in Battle of Tukayyid outcomes, so far...

[Vxheous]

El Bandito, on 11 May 2017 - 08:06 PM, said:

ECM is very effective vs. non-comp players. In comp play everything in a fight is carried out with precision and they keep tab more accurately on just how much damage has been done to mech sections. And comp teams' eyesights and reflexes are incredible--which renders ECM less useful.

In CW and pug queue, players tend to focus on any mech that has been locked. And seeing how Grasshopper does not have ECM while Hellbringer has one, I bet the Grasshopper in general has much lower lifespan than the Hellbie.



Quirks can help with that. Currently none of the Clan omnimechs are straight up garbage. Unlike some IS battlemechs, or future IS omnis...

At 900m, it doesn't matter that the Hellbringer has ECM while the Grasshopper does not, which is the range that most long range poke fights between Hellbringers and Grasshoppers occur. Neither mech has a target lock on the other so it's just visually shooting for a torso (or CT)

[Lupis Volk]

El Bandito, on 11 May 2017 - 11:28 PM, said:

The Lynx does decent damage for a 25 ton mech, but is overshadowed by the Cheetos. Lynx is far better than the likes of Spider-5V, or Commando.

Ice Ferret is comp worthy Medium mech. How did you even think of including it?

Gargles and Executioner are both not garbage thanks to Clan lasers. They can do good numbers at brawl and mid range. Certainly more reliable than the likes of Victor.

But hey, don't quote me on this, ask around and see which side the majority will agree with.

Thing is all four of those mechs require more than average skill to out perform a good IS player in their counterparts.

[Vxheous]

Lupis Volk, on 12 May 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

Thing is all four of those mechs require more than average skill to out perform a good IS player in their counterparts.

I would say Cicada vs Ice Ferret is a wash in terms of skill, though the Ice Ferret can survive XL ST loss (but if either mech is shooting torso and not legs, the fight is already over)

[Lupis Volk]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 12 May 2017 - 03:30 AM, said:

I would say Cicada vs Ice Ferret is a wash in terms of skill, though the Ice Ferret can survive XL ST loss (but if either mech is shooting torso and not legs, the fight is already over)

Well cicada goes faster, has a more tighter hit box (?) and carries waaaaaay more weapons. Also i started with Cicada's, so i know them very, very well.