164 replies to this topic

[OrmsbyGore]

Grus, on 12 May 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

Ok so of the XL is that bad dont bring it.. simple, adapt and overcome.

Clan mech's are supposed to be superior. Period.

If you wanted "balance" then PGI shouldn't have brought clan into the game. Keep the timeline in the succession wars and let us have at it. Discounts on your house specific mech so on and so on.

PGI has made clan mech's and equipment SLIGHTLY better. Not over powered.

If your having problems I'll pass on the knowledge that was pass on to me by a lot of their 1 and 2 pilots. Change your tactics, and watch the cbills flow.

While I agree that clans are supposed to have better tech, they are also supposed to be outnumbered, and that hasn't (and probably won't) happen

[Bud Crue]

Grus, on 12 May 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

Ok so of the XL is that bad dont bring it.. simple, adapt and overcome.

Clan mech's are supposed to be superior. Period.

-Sniff, sniff-
That smells like lore.

Ok.

Clans don't tolerate mercs. Period.
IS by this era has mixed tech. Period.
The FedCom civil war, requires a FedCom. Period.
Mediums are the most common mech used in the Inner Sphere. Period.
IS utilize mele combat and Clans find such to be a vulgarity. Period.
Clans fight with less mechs and less tonnage. Period.

We can do this all day. NONE of that crap is relevant to a competitive e-sport, or for that matter this game.
PGI made the clan XL to OP and is attempting to balance that with quirks...and had been doing OK (IMHO) with it until the rise of only one side of the tech divide having mechs that can support significant long range PPFLD. The former is the source of all our problems and the later has made it worse. And all of that has nothing to do with lore, or how things are "supposed to be". Period.

[Vonbach]

Bud Crue, on 12 May 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

-Sniff, sniff-
That smells like lore.

Ok.

Clans don't tolerate mercs. Period.
IS by this era has mixed tech. Period.
The FedCom civil war, requires a FedCom. Period.
Mediums are the most common mech used in the Inner Sphere. Period.
IS utilize mele combat and Clans find such to be a vulgarity. Period.
Clans fight with less mechs and less tonnage. Period.

We can do this all day. NONE of that crap is relevant to a competitive e-sport, or for that matter this game.
PGI made the clan XL to OP and is attempting to balance that with quirks...and had been doing OK (IMHO) with it until the rise of only one side of the tech divide having mechs that can support significant long range PPFLD. The former is the source of all our problems and the later has made it worse. And all of that has nothing to do with lore, or how things are "supposed to be". Period.

Oh yeah clanners fight with honor rules. I'd love to enforce that. No out of LOS lrms and you have to call out your target and duel. Oh and the IS are under no such obligation.

[Bud Crue]

Vonbach, on 12 May 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

Oh yeah clanners fight with honor rules. I'd love to enforce that. No out of LOS lrms and you have to call out your target and duel. Oh and the IS are under no such obligation.

Don't even get me started on the single most important lore based advantage that the IS is supposed to have, but which is totally missing from this game...




...plot armor.

If you really think lore is important, than the IS needs lots and lots of plot armor.

[Lupis Volk]

Bud Crue, on 12 May 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

Don't even get me started on the single most important lore based advantage that the IS is supposed to have, but which is totally missing from this game...




...plot armor.

If you really think lore is important, than the IS needs lots and lots of plot armor.

Sorry but the Dez...i mean Davions have a monopoly on plot armor.

[Jackal Noble]

Food for thought-

foreword - pls don't even start into the whole IS LPL and C-LPL are not the same thing because of range. Ok they are the only two large pulses either faction has in the game. Also, I only thought to look at this after I saw this thread and had been toying around with both the Banshee and Supernova. I was just trying to emulate the 3M build on the Supernova tbh.

Also, not factoring modules.

The Banshee 3M below has 21 DHS and a 1.24 heat efficiency (stock 3M prize load out). Notice the 28 DHS Boating Supernova-C at bottom with a 1.16 heat efficiency. They both have approx. similar speeds , 56.7 Supernova vs. 59.7 Banshee.

Alpha strength -
The BNC3M does a full 53 point alpha in .9 seconds (.67 seconds for LPL, .9 for Med L, .785 sec avg).
The Supernova-C does a full 67 point alpha in 1.15 seconds (1.12 seconds for C-LPL, 1.15 for C-Med L, 1.135 sec avg)

Total Fire + Cooldown
3M -
LPL -3.75 seconds (.67 + 3.25)
Medium Laser - 3.6 seconds (.9 + 2.7)

Supernova
CLPL - 4.37 seconds (1.12 + 3.25)
C Medium L - 4.15 seconds (1.15 + 3)

Damage over time (2- 4 cycles)
2nd cycle
3m
3 LPL - 7.5 seconds, 66 damage
4 Medium Lasers - 7.2 seconds, 40 damage

SuperNova
3 CLPL - 8.74 seconds, 72 damage
4 C Medium L - 8.3 seconds, 48 damage

3rd cycle
3M -
3 LPL - 11.25 seconds, 99 damage
4 Medium Lasers - 10.8 seconds, 60 damage

Supernova
3 CLPL- 13.11 seconds, 108 damage
4 C Medium L - 12.45 seconds, 72 damage

4th cycle
3M
3 LPL - 15 seconds, 132 damage
4 Medium Lasers - 14.4 seconds, 80 damage

Supernova
3 CLPL - 17.48 seconds, 144 damage
4 C Medium L - 16.6 seconds, 96 damage


Heat -
BNC3M full alpha - 41 heat.
Supernova - 54 heat

Damage per heat -
3M - 53 dmg/41 heat = 1.293
Supernova - 67 dmg/ 54 heat = 1.241

Quirkage -
3M - Energy Range - +10% Energy Cooldown -+5% Energy Heat - -5% Medium Laser Cooldown - +5% PPC Velocity -+20%
Supernova - ZILCH



Ranges -
3M -
3 LPL - Optimal range - 33 damage @ 401.5m Median range - 16.5 dmg @ 602.25m Max range - 0 damage @ 803m
4 Medium laser - Optimal range - 20 damage@ 297m Median range - 10 damage @ 445.5m Max range - 0 damage @ 594m

Supernova
3 CLPL - Optimal range - 36 damage @ 600m Median range - 18 damage @ 720m Max range - 0 damage @ 840m
4 C-Medium L Optimal range - 24 damage @ 405m Median range - 12 damage @ 546.5 m Max range - 0 damage @ 688m



Light Analysis - Time to apply damage is a big factor, particularly at the most common engagement ranges (300-600m). That and heat, Supernova is good for ~ 1 alpha, Banshee is good for 2+.

Edited by JackalBeast, 12 May 2017 - 04:31 PM.

[Zergling]

skorpionet, on 12 May 2017 - 07:23 AM, said:

I play only IS, I play only three mechs: AS7-S or SDH-2H or AWS-8Q , I play only quick play matches.

98% of matches I do the top damage or kills or points. I'm happy.

In the 669 battles you have in the QP Leaderboards, you only have 1.07 Win/Loss, 1.03 Kills/Battle and 265 average Match Score.
That is above average, but not nearly enough to be scoring top damage/kills or points 98% of the time.

Take it from someone that used to play a lot of IS mechs; you would be scoring noticeably better if you were playing Clan.

Edited by Zergling, 12 May 2017 - 05:14 PM.

[Gyrok]

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 05:14 PM, said:

In the 669 battles you have in the QP Leaderboards, you only have 1.07 Win/Loss, 1.03 Kills/Battle and 265 average Match Score.
That is above average, but not nearly enough to be scoring top damage/kills or points 98% of the time.

Take it from someone that used to play a lot of IS mechs; you would be scoring noticeably better if you were playing Clan.

Someone with days of seat time in a WHM-6D vehemently disagrees with you. That mech has not been touched since it dropped, it was OP AF then, it is still OP AF now.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 12 May 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Someone with days of seat time in a WHM-6D vehemently disagrees with you. That mech has not been touched since it dropped, it was OP AF then, it is still OP AF now.

It lost structure quirks
Making the XL a risk

[Zergling]

JackalBeast, on 12 May 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

Food for thought-

foreword - pls don't even start into the whole IS LPL and C-LPL are not the same thing because of range. Ok they are the only two large pulses either faction has in the game. Also, I only thought to look at this after I saw this thread and had been toying around with both the Banshee and Supernova. I was just trying to emulate the 3M build on the Supernova tbh.

Also, not factoring modules.

The Banshee 3M below has 21 DHS and a 1.24 heat efficiency (stock 3M prize load out). Notice the 28 DHS Boating Supernova-C at bottom with a 1.16 heat efficiency. They both have approx. similar speeds , 56.7 Supernova vs. 59.7 Banshee.

Alpha strength -
The BNC3M does a full 53 point alpha in .9 seconds (.67 seconds for LPL, .9 for Med L, .785 sec avg).
The Supernova-C does a full 67 point alpha in 1.15 seconds (1.12 seconds for C-LPL, 1.15 for C-Med L, 1.135 sec avg)

Total Fire + Cooldown
3M -
LPL -3.75 seconds (.67 + 3.25)
Medium Laser - 3.6 seconds (.9 + 2.7)

Supernova
CLPL - 4.37 seconds (1.12 + 3.25)
C Medium L - 4.15 seconds (1.15 + 3)

Damage over time (2- 4 cycles)
2nd cycle
3m
3 LPL - 7.5 seconds, 66 damage
4 Medium Lasers - 7.2 seconds, 40 damage

SuperNova
3 CLPL - 8.74 seconds, 72 damage
4 C Medium L - 8.3 seconds, 48 damage

3rd cycle
3M -
3 LPL - 11.25 seconds, 99 damage
4 Medium Lasers - 10.8 seconds, 60 damage

Supernova
3 CLPL- 13.11 seconds, 108 damage
4 C Medium L - 12.45 seconds, 72 damage

4th cycle
3M
3 LPL - 15 seconds, 132 damage
4 Medium Lasers - 14.4 seconds, 80 damage

Supernova
3 CLPL - 17.48 seconds, 144 damage
4 C Medium L - 16.6 seconds, 96 damage


Heat -
BNC3M full alpha - 41 heat.
Supernova - 54 heat

Damage per heat -
3M - 53 dmg/41 heat = 1.293
Supernova - 67 dmg/ 54 heat = 1.241

Quirkage -
3M - Energy Range - +10% Energy Cooldown -+5% Energy Heat - -5% Medium Laser Cooldown - +5% PPC Velocity -+20%
Supernova - ZILCH



Ranges -
3M -
3 LPL - Optimal range - 33 damage @ 401.5m Median range - 16.5 dmg @ 602.25m Max range - 0 damage @ 803m
4 Medium laser - Optimal range - 20 damage@ 297m Median range - 10 damage @ 445.5m Max range - 0 damage @ 594m

Supernova
3 CLPL - Optimal range - 36 damage @ 600m Median range - 18 damage @ 720m Max range - 0 damage @ 840m
4 C-Medium L Optimal range - 24 damage @ 405m Median range - 12 damage @ 546.5 m Max range - 0 damage @ 688m



Light Analysis - Time to apply damage is a big factor, particularly at the most common engagement ranges (300-600m). That and heat, Supernova is good for ~ 1 alpha, Banshee is good for 2+.

Why are you comparing a Supernova with triple Clan Large Pulse, which will be triggering ghost heat?
And why are you using a standard engine on the Supernova, when the Supernova can take an XL?


Here's a Supernova build to compare with, 2x Large Pulse, 6x Medium Pulse, 325XL, 28 double heat sinks.
That build has a 74 damage alpha with 330 meter effective range and 1.12 second beam duration.
28 double heat sinks gives it maximum heat capacity of 83 and 5.405 heat dissipation per second.
A single alpha generates 56 heat, bringing the mech to 67.47% of maximum heat, and it takes 10.36 seconds to dissipate that heat.

It has a maximum DPS output of 18.42, and a sustained DPS output of 7.15, with a heat efficiency of 38.81%.


Or if you really want to use a standard engine on the Supernova, 2x Large Pulse, 6x ER Medium, 305 standard, 29 double heat sinks.
That build has a 68 damage alpha with 405 meter effective range and 1.15 second beam duration.
21 double heat sinks gives it maximum heat capacity of 84.5 and 5.5775 heat dissipation per second.
A single alpha generates 56 heat, bringing the mech to 66.27% of maximum heat, and it takes 10.04 seconds to dissipate that heat.

It has a maximum DPS output of 16.07 and a sustained DPS output of 6.76, with a heat efficiency of 42.09%.



Your Banshee 3M build is nowhere near optimal either. If you want to run a maximum damage build, then it is 3x Large Pulse with 5x Medium Laser, a 325 standard engine and 21 double heat sinks.
That build has a 58 damage alpha with 297 meter effective range and 0.90 second beam duration.
21 double heat sinks gives it maximum heat capacity of 72.5 and 4.1975 heat dissipation per second.
A single alpha generates 38.95 heat, bringing the mech to 53.72% of maximum heat, and it takes 9.28 seconds to dissipate that heat.

It has a maximum DPS output of 14.83 and a sustained DPS output of 6.25, with a heat efficiency of 42.14%.


Note that the Supernova SNV-1 and SNV-B can run the same builds as above, which results in those mechs having armor/structure quirks, which means they'll be tougher than the Banshee which has zero armor/structure quirks.

Gyrok, on 12 May 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Someone with days of seat time in a WHM-6D vehemently disagrees with you. That mech has not been touched since it dropped, it was OP AF then, it is still OP AF now.

Oh, it's Gyrok /eyeroll

[Jackal Noble]

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

Why are you comparing a Supernova with triple Clan Large Pulse, which will be triggering ghost heat?
And why are you using a standard engine on the Supernova, when the Supernova can take an XL?


Here's a Supernova build to compare with, 2x Large Pulse, 6x Medium Pulse, 325XL, 28 double heat sinks.
That build has a 74 damage alpha with 330 meter effective range and 1.12 second beam duration.
28 double heat sinks gives it maximum heat capacity of 83 and 5.405 heat dissipation per second.
A single alpha generates 56 heat, bringing the mech to 67.47% of maximum heat, and it takes 10.36 seconds to dissipate that heat.

It has a maximum DPS output of 18.42, and a sustained DPS output of 7.15, with a heat efficiency of 38.81%.


Or if you really want to use a standard engine on the Supernova, 2x Large Pulse, 6x ER Medium, 305 standard, 29 double heat sinks.
That build has a 68 damage alpha with 405 meter effective range and 1.15 second beam duration.
21 double heat sinks gives it maximum heat capacity of 84.5 and 5.5775 heat dissipation per second.
A single alpha generates 56 heat, bringing the mech to 66.27% of maximum heat, and it takes 10.04 seconds to dissipate that heat.

It has a maximum DPS output of 16.07 and a sustained DPS output of 6.76, with a heat efficiency of 42.09%.



Your Banshee 3M build is nowhere near optimal either. If you want to run a maximum damage build, then it is 3x Large Pulse with 5x Medium Laser, a 325 standard engine and 21 double heat sinks.
That build has a 58 damage alpha with 297 meter effective range and 0.90 second beam duration.
21 double heat sinks gives it maximum heat capacity of 72.5 and 4.1975 heat dissipation per second.
A single alpha generates 38.95 heat, bringing the mech to 53.72% of maximum heat, and it takes 9.28 seconds to dissipate that heat.

It has a maximum DPS output of 14.83 and a sustained DPS output of 6.25, with a heat efficiency of 42.14%.


Note that the Supernova SNV-1 and SNV-B can run the same builds as above, which results in those mechs having armor/structure quirks, which means they'll be tougher than the Banshee which has zero armor/structure quirks.

Wow, you obviously didn't even read the first part of my post. I admit I didn't consider the armor bonused supernovas, I was looking at the hardpoints at the time. Face palm, man. Try harder next time to debunk something that was just an observation. Playing Gauntlet atm so not so not looking at the other supernovas. Pretty sure the 1 has all the energy in it's arms. not as good as running a standard with hardpoints in the side torso. Ya tbh I switch back and forth with the Supernova on the engines all the time. I don't need help running builds, thanks.

Edited by JackalBeast, 12 May 2017 - 06:12 PM.

[Zergling]

JackalBeast, on 12 May 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

Wow, you obviously didn't even read the first part of my post. I admit I didn't consider the armor bonused supernovas, I was looking at the hardpoints at the time. Face palm, man. Try harder next time to debunk something that was just an observation.

Don't get so defensive. You can't make comparable Clan vs IS builds if you don't consider the differences in Clan vs IS tech, like ghost heat limits and what is optimal for the both of them.

[Jackal Noble]

Not man, just telling you. I did it to compare the two weapon types on two assaults.

[Zergling]

JackalBeast, on 12 May 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Not man, just telling you. I did it to compare the two weapon types on two assaults.

I get that, it is just that the weapons themselves aren't directly comparable; only working builds that use those weapons should be compared.

[Gyrok]

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

Oh, it's Gyrok /eyeroll

You cannot handwave away facts.

[Jackal Noble]

Is that so?

I'm petty sure I did just that.

[Zergling]

JackalBeast, on 12 May 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

Is that so?

I'm petty sure I did just that.

The Supernova build you compared isn't a 'working' build, because it has triple Clan Large Pulse Laser. Clan LPL has a ghost heat limit of 2, so the most common builds that use Clan LPL are 2x LPL + a bunch of ER Medium or Medium Pulse.

The Clan ER Medium has almost identical beam duration to the Clan Large Pulse, so it is the most common weapon to combine with the Clan LPL.
The Medium Pulse is usually only used when the mech has excessive tonnage and limited slots.

The Banshee build you compared isn't bad, but I'd prefer a 5th Medium Laser to give it closer alpha damage to the Clan builds.

[Y E O N N E]

I wouldn't say that a ghosting build is necessarily "non-working." The 7x cMPL build ghosts, but it's very much a "working" build. Ditto 4x cERLL. Even the 5x cLPL Kodiak will ghost but it just can savage any target unfortunate to get caught in front.

Hell, IS builds using 4x ERLL/LPL ghost all the time. I do it regularly where appropriate.

[Zergling]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 May 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

I wouldn't say that a ghosting build is necessarily "non-working." The 7x cMPL build ghosts, but it's very much a "working" build. Ditto 4x cERLL. Even the 5x cLPL Kodiak will ghost but it just can savage any target unfortunate to get caught in front.

Hell, IS builds using 4x ERLL/LPL ghost all the time. I do it regularly where appropriate.

Fair enough, it just isn't anywhere near as close to optimal as an IS triple Large Pulse + Medium Lasers build, so the Clan weapons end up looking worse than they actually are as a result.

Edited by Zergling, 12 May 2017 - 07:01 PM.

[SmokedJag]

Vonbach, on 12 May 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

Oh yeah clanners fight with honor rules. I'd love to enforce that. No out of LOS lrms and you have to call out your target and duel. Oh and the IS are under no such obligation.

Clans won't fight with their "honor" against an actively dishonorable opponent *but* they will still try to showboat for their own personal glory. Maybe something like PGI allows Clan tonnage up to the current Inner Sphere limit but from 240 up your rewards decrease, while 230-240 is full reward and below 230 increases rapidly, especially for wins. That was much of the point of Clans, seeing what the minimum you could win with was, even better if that was less than what your peers thought the minimum was. Award MC and major extra loyalty points or something for fighting short tonnage and winning. Some bonus for fighting short and losing (with minimum criteria) so people won't be too allergic to doing it but *big* bonuses for pulling that stuff out.

Edited by SmokedJag, 12 May 2017 - 07:21 PM.