74 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

Just gonna drop a little 'balance' idea I had about lasers while I'm here: http://mwomercs.com/...-weapon-ranges/

TL;DR - Standard lasers would retain the 1:2 Effective/max ranges, while the ER lasers would maintain a higher effective range, but a reduced max range. The result would be the max ranges of lasers keeping relatively close between standard/ER varieties, but the ER having the higher effective with a trade off in heat/burn time.

Basically, this:

So now let's take a per-weapon comparison and see how they stack up to one another with the new ranges.

SL - 135/270
ERSL - 167/251) <-(Will probably need higher base range)
CERSL - 200/300

ML - 270/540
(ERML - 324/486) <-(Will probably need higher base range)
CERML - 405/608

LL - 450/900[/color]
ERLL - 675/1013[/color]
CERLL - 740/1110[/color]

SPL - 110/220
(SXPL not included!)
CSPL - 165/248

MPL - 220/440
(MXPL not included!)
CMPL - 330/495

LPL - 365/730
(LXPL not included!)
CLPL - 600/900

Bud Crue, on 12 May 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

Quote:
"First and foremost, we do not want the quirks to be one of the primary factors for considering ‘Mech viability on the IS side. We further do not want said Quirks to add to the massive performance gulf between ‘Mech Loadouts optimized entirely around the Quirks, and those that are not...."

So tell me then, w/o quirks, why would ANYONE play, let alone purchase a mech like the Cataphract? A mech where most of its hard points are hip level or lower? Why would anyone...without quirks play a Panther or Wolfhound? Mechs whose profile in game is as large as a Phoenix Hawk? Without quirks why would anyone play an Atlas? A mech whose relevant hard points are at its waist or are missiles?

And it begins... Was reading comprehension not on your high school syllabus?

Basically what they're saying:
1. They don't want Quirks making players stick to specific loadouts that utilize them the most, while all other builds would be considered sub-optimal.

2. They don't want IS-Clan balance revolving first and foremost around quirks like it has been.

If you'd read the rest of the post, they state multiple times that they're looking to balance core mechanics and systems of the game. Hell, this is seriously what we've been waiting for the last however many years now I've lost count oh jeezus.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 13 May 2017 - 03:07 AM.

[Scyther]

It's a pretty good post overall, I think. I don't agree with all of it, but then nothing they can do would be agreeable to everyone. From the PGI posts I have read in roughly the past 6 months I'd say they're taking 'communicate to the players' more seriously than they have in the past.

I particularly liked the careful wording of "Taken as a whole, acknowledging known outliers and some of the legitimate Clan versus IS imbalances, the current state of balance is arguably in one of its better states, relative to what we’ve seen in the past." I bet he rewrote that a couple times... [/color][/color]

Edited by MadBadger, 13 May 2017 - 03:08 AM.

[Mystere]

Bud Crue, on 12 May 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

Quote:
"First and foremost, we do not want the quirks to be one of the primary factors for considering ‘Mech viability on the IS side. We further do not want said Quirks to add to the massive performance gulf between ‘Mech Loadouts optimized entirely around the Quirks, and those that are not...."

So tell me then, w/o quirks, why would ANYONE play, let alone purchase a mech like the Cataphract? A mech where most of its hard points are hip level or lower? Why would anyone...without quirks play a Panther or Wolfhound? Mechs whose profile in game is as large as a Phoenix Hawk? Without quirks why would anyone play an Atlas? A mech whose relevant hard points are at its waist or are missiles?

<steps out of the shadows>

Psst!

Hey you!

Yes, you!

We're about to get a convergence-based solution to the armless high-hardpoint PPFLD problem.>

<steps back into the shadows>

[Nesutizale]

I just laugh about all the "My quirks are gone" stuff. Only the meta players are fearing that they have to search for a new meta. Everyone else can just go and have fun.

I am currently rofl myself in a Victor, the worst mech, so people tell me, and I have fun with it because of some nice quirks but you know what happens when they take them away?
I either adapt or drop the mech. Got enough mechs to play something else and it will be a challange to find a new configuration that works.

I don't worry about the new mechanics, I accept and adept and find my way to have fun.
Also in Tukk3 I have been running Marauders with definitly non meta builds and you know what? Been through my personal challange in 3 days and had lots of good games. I just had to adept the first few matches to the different gameplay.
Found out that AC20 still hurt peoples face (literaly, nice headshot to a Jenner IIC ^_°)

Except you meta tryhards most people won't have a problem and adept.

Edited by Nesutizale, 13 May 2017 - 03:30 AM.

[Zergling]

Quote

We took a data pull from all Tier 4/Tier 5 players without Premium Time, but who are active players, and looked at their average C-Bill and XP earnings per-match. The player data showed us that the average C-Bill earning per-match for a player in that bracket was 119,315 C-Bills. The XP average was 818.

I loled, that is just terribad.

Edited by Zergling, 13 May 2017 - 03:35 AM.

[s0da72]

Before this new change goes into effect should any Mech that is close to be mastered be completed using GXP?

[Bud Crue]

Leone, on 12 May 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

Beacuse it's Awesome! You can build the poor-man's Marauder, before we could even have marauders! And it's a pretty sweet brawler.


Wait... I fail to see how that's relevant to brawling...

Panther can be a fun bit o mech. Makes for a nice change of pace, and gave me new mech insights. And sometimes you just wanna hop in a wolf hound in Quickplay, find a Timberwolf, and go all Phelan Kell on it.

Because Atlas!

... I still fail to see the relevance...

~Leone.

Reaad the announcement.

The mechs you are describing are the mechs in their current state?
Yes?

The premise that PGI is asserting in the announcement is based on the suposition that these mechs would be willingly played with NO quirks. None. An Atlas with no bonus armor are structure? That bonus...and the perceived toughness that it provides...is the ONLY reason to play a mech that is slow, has few and varied hard points and which are low mounted. Take away the defining bonuses of the Atlas and all you are left with is a very slow target.

Same with the Phract, etc.

[Bud Crue]

Pjwned, on 13 May 2017 - 02:46 AM, said:

Everything that Chris says right here is completely valid.



But of course, the tears from quirk apologists still flow regardless of being told directly from the developers how the crapfest they want to cling to is bad.

Yeah. Remove all bonus structure an armor from a mech like the Hunchback 4SP. Ok...now go look at its base stats. With me still? Now, give it any aspect of with new tech and all its balance potential that they are asserting in that section you quoted, So far so good? Now, how long does that mech last getting into range of a Hunchback IIc poping it with a 30 point alpha ever few seconds? Not to long right?

The reason that the 4SP has all that structure is so that it has a chance to get into range of those PPFLD alphas that it is physically incapable of mounting. That isn't being a quirk apologist, that is the balance.

Mucking with only one side of that equation grantees imbalance. They are intentionally breaking what they have spent several years building and the announcment has no indication or plan for correcting it other than to hint at the idea that they will monitor the situation and get around to it, maybe, sometime, later.

Well, that's just great.

[Alexander of Macedon]

MustrumRidcully, on 13 May 2017 - 02:04 AM, said:

I am looking forward to HBS' Battletech game like a lot here probably do, but do not believe for a moment that another game in the same franchise but with a different genre is a really dangerous competition for MWO. MWO will fail or succeed mostly on its own merits.

Bud, speak for yourself. MechCommander Gold is really dangerous competition for MWO in my library these days.

[Bud Crue]

MauttyKoray, on 13 May 2017 - 02:54 AM, said:

Just gonna drop a little 'balance' idea I had about lasers while I'm here: http://mwomercs.com/...-weapon-ranges/

TL;DR - Standard lasers would retain the 1:2 Effective/max ranges, while the ER lasers would maintain a higher effective range, but a reduced max range. The result would be the max ranges of lasers keeping relatively close between standard/ER varieties, but the ER having the higher effective with a trade off in heat/burn time.

Basically, this:

So now let's take a per-weapon comparison and see how they stack up to one another with the new ranges.

SL - 135/270
ERSL - 167/251) <-(Will probably need higher base range)
CERSL - 200/300

ML - 270/540
(ERML - 324/486) <-(Will probably need higher base range)
CERML - 405/608

LL - 450/900[/color]
ERLL - 675/1013[/color]
CERLL - 740/1110[/color]

SPL - 110/220
(SXPL not included!)
CSPL - 165/248

MPL - 220/440
(MXPL not included!)
CMPL - 330/495

LPL - 365/730
(LXPL not included!)
CLPL - 600/900


And it begins... Was reading comprehension not on your high school syllabus?

Basically what they're saying:
1. They don't want Quirks making players stick to specific loadouts that utilize them the most, while all other builds would be considered sub-optimal.

2. They don't want IS-Clan balance revolving first and foremost around quirks like it has been.

If you'd read the rest of the post, they state multiple times that they're looking to balance core mechanics and systems of the game. Hell, this is seriously what we've been waiting for the last however many years now I've lost count oh jeezus.

You've been around a bit yes?

And you think that their repeated assertions of...how did you put it..."looking into balance core mechanics and systems of the game" means what? No really you tell me Mr reading comprehension exactly what that means. If you can't then stfu.

[s0da72]

Quote

[color=orange]Q: In its final release state, players will need Skill Points to unlock Skills. If the player doesn’t have any legacy Skill Points to use from their Refund Ledger, each Skill Point will cost 45,000 C-Bills and 800 XP. If a player wants to later re-equip a Skill they already own for that ‘Mech, doing so will require 400 XP and no C-Bills.[/color]
[color=orange]How did you arrive at these values?[/color]

So to re-equip I need to use XP? that seems kind of backwards, but I guess they are doing this to create an XP sink. I've always found XP much more difficult to generate than C-Bills. At least with C-Bills you can purchase directly with MC if you desperately want to try something out.

[Tordin]

Finally some clarification on what they are gonna do in the time ahead. They have goals now and we know, they better stay on course or it might go outta hand.
I have no sympathy for those competive meta heads that are afraid to look for new meta and/ or adapt to an ever changing meta. A healthy meta is a changing meta without overshadowing non-meta builds.

I however would like to see machine gun, flamer and even individual mech chassi quirks. I guess they wait for the former when the new tech arrives and yes I know what they wrote about not having the ST exactly balance IS to Clan or mech to mech basis but still. Having uniqe quirks depending on which mech you pilot would be neat!

Alexander of Macedon, on 13 May 2017 - 04:04 AM, said:

Bud, speak for yourself. MechCommander Gold is really dangerous competition for MWO in my library these days.

I play it too from time to time amazing game. Wait, hang on... I play most kinds of Battletech games be it MWO, MW, MC oy yes, even Mech Assault! Pros and cons all over, all about scratching the BT itch!

Edited by Tordin, 13 May 2017 - 04:11 AM.

[chucklesMuch]

Nesutizale, on 13 May 2017 - 03:29 AM, said:

I just laugh about all the &quot;My quirks are gone&quot; stuff. Only the meta players are fearing that they have to search for a new meta. Everyone else can just go and have fun.

I am currently rofl myself in a Victor, the worst mech, so people tell me, and I have fun with it because of some nice quirks but you know what happens when they take them away?
I either adapt or drop the mech. Got enough mechs to play something else and it will be a challange to find a new configuration that works.

I don't worry about the new mechanics, I accept and adept and find my way to have fun.
Also in Tukk3 I have been running Marauders with definitly non meta builds and you know what? Been through my personal challange in 3 days and had lots of good games. I just had to adept the first few matches to the different gameplay.
Found out that AC20 still hurt peoples face (literaly, nice headshot to a Jenner IIC ^_°)

Except you meta tryhards most people won't have a problem and adept.

The true meta players will be the quickest to adapt...

And I think the metaplayers will be more concerned about even worse terribad builds on the allied mechs beside them or on the seals they are clubbing...

[Mystere]

Sjorpha, on 13 May 2017 - 02:51 AM, said:

This paragraph:

[/list]Gives me a lot of hope actually. Balancing the actual tech instead of just using quirks, finally going for balancing IS and Clan engines.

I really hope this actually happens, and I can see how the reduction to firepower quirks makes sense in this context.

Now the main problem I see is that even if this is done, and done successfully, we are looking forward to a considerable period of even bigger faction imbalance than we already have.

It also would make sense to balance all the new IS tech, including LFE, directly against Clan tech instead of waiting, because then we could at least use the new tech for IS to compete while we are waiting for the balance passes on the old tech.

My fear is that this is the last ingredient to finally make MWO a generic stompy robot shooter.

[Tordin]

Stompy robot shooter... We have hawken *sigh* for that, look how that went..Its actually a bad thing if any mech-like game suffers, making the competition and interest for mech games even more niche...

[Nesutizale]

Zergling, on 13 May 2017 - 03:35 AM, said:

[/size]
I loled, that is just terribad.

In what way?

chucklesMuch, on 13 May 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

The true meta players will be the quickest to adapt...

And I think the metaplayers will be more concerned about even worse terribad builds on the allied mechs beside them or on the seals they are clubbing...

They will have to be the quickest to stay in the meta ^_°
As for concerns. I don't have the impression that they even want to have anyone else beside them with all the "Noone should be allowed in FW without metabuilds/full mastered/best modules" attitude.

[MauttyKoray]

Bud Crue, on 13 May 2017 - 04:07 AM, said:

You've been around a bit yes?

And you think that their repeated assertions of...how did you put it..."looking into balance core mechanics and systems of the game" means what? No really you tell me Mr reading comprehension exactly what that means. If you can't then stfu.

Within the last year they've begun doing things they talked about years ago when they weren't ina position financially or content wise to do so. So I'm at least optimistic about these Q&A notes and look forward to seeing if they follow through however I never expect it to be done following the arduous track record PGI has had with this game after their initial first half of its lifespan spent floundering around due to publisher/inexperienced development.

[Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh]

Stop.
STOP!
STOP!!!

I don't get it.
I have 450+ mechs with shittons of modules on most of 'em.
They has said, that only those modules, that were purchased after December 2016 will be fully compensated in c-bills.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE OTHERS???

Will they go in vain or what?

Edited by Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh, 13 May 2017 - 04:24 AM.

[Nesutizale]

People do the PTS....

Can't find the news to it but the old modules will be rewarded as well. You will receive general skillpoints to spend on any mech you want them.

[Scyther]

@Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh:
As has been pointed out in dozens of posts for the past 3 weeks or so, your other modules will be refunded as GSP - General Skill Points which can be used to level up any mechs any time.

People who have 'shittons' of modules took a look at the refund ledger when PTS2 was up, and came back saying they had GSP payouts in the 9,000, 12,000, I think I even saw a guy saying he was getting 22,000 or so GSP. Prob more than can ever be used.

If you have pre-Dec.3/16 modules that you don't want converted to GSP, you can sell them back before May 16 for 50% of the purchase price in C-Bills, that seems to be your only "Give me C-bills" option for older modules. Of course, then you have the issue of separating pre-Dec.3 modules from post Dec.3...

Edited by MadBadger, 13 May 2017 - 04:34 AM.