74 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

They should also add heat penalties like -

yeah they definitely shouldnt.

even the new battletech turn based game doesnt have heat penalties. because heat penalties are stupid.

[Ruar]

Khobai, on 14 May 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

yeah they definitely shouldnt.

even the new battletech turn based game doesnt have heat penalties. because heat penalties are stupid.

Heat penalties aren't stupid, but they are not fun. In TT it's not a big deal because it's just a change to hit percentage and such, but in a FPS game it's incredibly frustrating to constantly have such penalties.

I think a better method of implementing heat would be once you hit 85% heat you start taking longer to fire the next energy weapon as well as you start slowing down. 90% heat is 30% slower fire rate and 15% slower speed. 95% heat is 50% slower fire rate, 25% slower speed.

[sycocys]

Khobai, on 14 May 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

yeah they definitely shouldnt.

even the new battletech turn based game doesnt have heat penalties. because heat penalties are stupid.

People running around firing of huge alpha shot after huge alpha shot is stupid.

If they/we want actual roles in the game the balancing mechanics at some point actually need to be a part of the mechanics of the game play and not soley on the min/max abilities of each mech.

A huge thing missing from the balance is them actually implementing a useful way to limit/reduce the alpha techniques people have come to favor and push the game towards something that plays at a more controlled pace. Ghost heat didn't accomplish that because there was no actual penalty other than a shut down and light damage for continuing to alpha your way through a match - performance degradation for running hot helps to solve a lot of that problem and would probably be able to outright replace the ghost heat mechanic for the most part.

[oldradagast]

Let me guess how this one ends:

- IS lasers (LPL in particular) will be nerfed because a few IS mechs can use them effectively to compete with Clans, and we can't have that. The Battle of Tukayyid showed us that IS can fight back now and then, which is not accurate to lore.

- IS PPC's will retain their crippling and utterly illogical 90-meter, zero-damage range limit. Despite this idiotic limit in no way matching lore nor making a tiny bit of sense, it will be kept so to as minimize viable IS weapon options. They could do splash damage under min range, like Clan ERPPC's, or scale the damage down as range decreases, but if that happened, somebody might play an Awesome 8Q with PPC's instead of lasers, and we can't have that.

- At least one random weapon will be increased substantially in power for no conceivable reason and will end up defining the new meta until new tech arrives and it - and some other random thing - are nerfed into the ground a few months later.

- Flamers will be nerfed because people used them now and then.

Did I sum it up?

Cathy, on 14 May 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

last time they said this, they came up with the node tree

Exactly. After seeing the skill maze, I have zero faith in PGI's ability to not mess this one up completely.

Edited by oldradagast, 14 May 2017 - 12:21 PM.

[Valhallan]

Khobai, on 14 May 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

and the best way to make the game less like alphawarrior online is to implement game mechanics that spread damage across multiple locations instead of letting weapons drill through one location.

You mean the suggested "convergence is set at highest optimum range unless target lock"?, yea any similar suggestions were always pilloried by the "i want to fire where i point" people.

Khobai, on 14 May 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

even the new battletech turn based game doesnt have heat penalties. because heat penalties are stupid.

True but heat damage starts at around 50% heat and ramps up from there, that's a large difference from ours where it starts at 100%.

[kapusta11]

I'd rather see PGI not touch anything.

[Tarogato]

If it were my game,

- restore max range of all clan lasers. All lasers should have a max range of 2x optimal. "Keep it simple, stupid."
- slight increase (nerf) burn duration on most clan lasers
- slight nerf to cooldown on most clan lasers
- nerf damage by 1 on cLPL, and perhaps also cSPL and cERSL
- buff cooldown on most IS lasers
- reduce ML and SL heat back to original values

[Khobai]

Quote

People running around firing of huge alpha shot after huge alpha shot is stupid.

but heat penalties dont solve that.

youd just have people using dual gauss and still doing huge alphastrikes while avoiding heat penalties because gauss generates next to no heat.

[Ruar]

Khobai, on 14 May 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

but heat penalties dont solve that.

youd just have people using dual gauss and still doing huge alphastrikes while avoiding heat penalties because gauss generates next to no heat.

Power restriction is the best way of solving the alpha issue. Engine puts out X amount of power per second, weapons require Y amount of power to all fire at once. Can even be used to make adjustments to gauss rifles. You could still stack 12 small lasers, or 5 medium lasers, or three large lasers, but there would be a maximum number of energy weapons you could mount. This would have the added bonus of forcing mixed weaponry builds to take ballistic or missile options with less power draw. Mechs like the Grasshopper built around a high number of energy mounts have quirks which allow for more weapons to be fired at one time.

[Valhallan]

Khobai, on 14 May 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

but heat penalties dont solve that.

youd just have people using dual gauss and still doing huge alphastrikes while avoiding heat penalties because gauss generates next to no heat.

it does for the vast majority of weapons, which is the point, that 50% heat damage of BT? that would cut a lot of the more egregious alpha builds here (especially if the free heatcap buffs we have are removed too) Gauss was always the outlier even in TT, and as a single weapon it is much easier to just keep hitting it with the CD nerf-bat rather than having spooky heat set for various weapons.

[Acehilator]

I am pretty sure it will be wasted development time, like 95% of things PGI does. Some things might change, general picture will stay the same. A net change of 0 would be nice... although knowing our "balance" overlords another round of IS nerfs is not off the table.

Already two Clanners asking for IS LPL nerfs... dafuq, guys?

[MechaBattler]

My concern is how they define roles.

Do we define ER lasers as sniper weapons? Do we give them a long cooldown or duration? The duration will make them vulnerable to PPC/Gauss and make them weaker fighting enemies in cover. Why define them as sniper weapons if they can't do that role well?

What about Pulse weapons? I assume they're meant to be brawler weapons. So what should define a brawler weapon? DPS?

Standard lasers are the ones without a defined role. They're just kinda in the middle. But it's not like they're especially hurting. Except for the IS Small laser.

Acehilator, on 14 May 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

I am pretty sure it will be wasted development time, like 95% of things PGI does. Some things might change, general picture will stay the same. A net change of 0 would be nice... although knowing our "balance" overlords another round of IS nerfs is not off the table.

Already two Clanners asking for IS LPL nerfs... dafuq, guys?

It's the best we've got, so naturally it has be nerfed for the sake of Clan pride and status quo. Just like the Warhammer and the Blacknight needed to be knocked down a peg apparently.

Edited by MechaBattler, 14 May 2017 - 12:55 PM.

[kapusta11]

Ruar, on 14 May 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Power restriction is the best way of solving the alpha issue. Engine puts out X amount of power per second, weapons require Y amount of power to all fire at once. Can even be used to make adjustments to gauss rifles. You could still stack 12 small lasers, or 5 medium lasers, or three large lasers, but there would be a maximum number of energy weapons you could mount. This would have the added bonus of forcing mixed weaponry builds to take ballistic or missile options with less power draw. Mechs like the Grasshopper built around a high number of energy mounts have quirks which allow for more weapons to be fired at one time.

Not standing still and/or poking out of the same corner like a potato is the best way of solving the alpha issue.

[Khobai]

Quote

it does for the vast majority of weapons, which is the point,

so the point is to invalidate every weapon but gauss?

yeah sorry but im not buying into the grand delusion that heat penalties fix anything

[Valhallan]

Khobai, on 14 May 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

so the point is to invalidate every weapon but gauss?

yeah sorry but im not buying into the grand delusion that heat penalties fix anything

If "every weapon but gauss" is invalidated then you just slap gauss repeatedly with CD penalties (let's see who takes gauss when it has 10-15 sec CD). You keep thinking heat penalties means performance reductions, even just doing what BT did, which is essentially just lowering the heatcap by half, will always be better than the maze lottery that is spooky heat.

[Ruar]

kapusta11, on 14 May 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

Not standing still and/or poking out of the same corner like a potato is the best way of solving the alpha issue.

Yeah, no.

Best solution for reducing and limiting alpha builds is to design the weapon mechanics to prevent alpha builds. Power control and manipulation is the easiest way to make that happen.

After all, you can be the smartest player in the game, but that doesn't stop someone in a 13 PPC Direwolf from one shotting you because it's impossible to stay in cover the entire match. However, make it impossible to fire more than three PPCs and you've successfully limited alpha.

[fat4eyes]

Clan SPLs need a nerf. The IS has nothing that can compete with them (except SRMs and even there Clan SRMs beat IS SRMs), and worse their max range puts them in competition with IS medium lasers. Or maybe buff IS SPLs and SLs instead, but they'd better be REALLY big buffs.

[kapusta11]

Ruar, on 14 May 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

Yeah, no.

Best solution for reducing and limiting alpha builds is to design the weapon mechanics to prevent alpha builds. Power control and manipulation is the easiest way to make that happen.

After all, you can be the smartest player in the game, but that doesn't stop someone in a 13 PPC Direwolf from one shotting you because it's impossible to stay in cover the entire match. However, make it impossible to fire more than three PPCs and you've successfully limited alpha.

13 PPC Direwolf is a joke build. Are we going to balance the game around joke builds now?

Edited by kapusta11, 14 May 2017 - 01:46 PM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

I wouldn't change much, but...
I would nerf clan SPLs to have 5.5 or 5 dmg. These are way too good. Main reason clanners can always win brawling if only they want to.
IS smalls could get a bit of buff to stop being a joke, even 0.5 dmg for starters could help
IS LR could generate less heat to have some kind of advantage over anything actually viable for once.

[SnafuSnafu]

Mech Commander (ballistic-esque) style laser would be cool, would definitely introduce a little bit more 'skill' into the game.