64 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Requiemking, on 14 May 2017 - 11:11 PM, said:

Well, lets look then shall we?

1)ACH: There is no way around it. Clan Lights, with the exception of the Cheetah, are pretty much bad by design, whether it be by being under engined, overburdened by hard-locked equipment, or being simply too large.

2) HBK IIC/ Huntsman: Everything one could do with these mechs can be done equally well by a Storm Crow or a Nova.

3) Warhammer/Grasshopper: Well, considering that the Marauder has far better frontal hitboxes than either of these two, has similar quirks, and requires less torso movement to spread damage......

4) Kodiak: Again, the Kodiak is one of two exceptions in a weightclass where most(if not all) Clan entries seem to be bad by design. Similar to Lights, Clan Assaults suffer from being under engined, overburdened by hardlocked equipment, being too large, being overengined, or some combination of the above.

OK, so the Crow and Nova can do everything AS WELL AS.....
Oddly, the Grasshopper and Battlemaster (also...not chickenwalker)are the IS FW dropdecks, not Marauders....

etc.....

So pretty much anything that doesn't fit your very narrow, and frankly, bad, narrative is a fringe case or exception. Got it.

[Requiemking]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 May 2017 - 11:28 PM, said:

OK, so the Crow and Nova can do everything AS WELL AS.....
Oddly, the Grasshopper and Battlemaster (also...not chickenwalker)are the IS FW dropdecks, not Marauders....

etc.....

So pretty much anything that doesn't fit your very narrow, and frankly, bad, narrative is a fringe case or exception. Got it.

There is also Volumetric scaling to consider, which has a tendency to screw over most humanoid mechs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Oh...and Stormcrows stand just about as tall as a Humanoid. Forgot to mention that.

Requiemking, on 14 May 2017 - 11:31 PM, said:

There is also Volumetric scaling to consider, which has a tendency to screw over most humanoid mechs.

except we just demonstrated...it really hasn't.

[Requiemking]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 May 2017 - 11:54 PM, said:

Oh...and Stormcrows stand just about as tall as a Humanoid. Forgot to mention that.


except we just demonstrated...it really hasn't.

I did say most, did I not? Besides, out of all the humanoids you mentioned, the only one to get badly hit by the Rescale was the Grasshopper. Mechs like the Black Knight, Highlander, and Execution also got hit. Tell me, Bishop, when was the last time you saw anyone seriously playing a Black Knight?

[Shifty McSwift]

Resize lights?

Yeah true that locust is far too small, needs a scale up?

**Opens umbrella**

[JadePanther]

FupDup, on 14 May 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

Not gonna happen, unfortunately. PGI is not going to go back and resize any mechs after they already did a huge pass on almost everything, with the claim that everything is at "totally scientifically objectively correct sizes" now.

Our only hope is moar quirks, but PGI is very stingy when it comes to quirking light mechs. Or sub-par mechs in general really, but lights especially get the short end of the quirk stick.

theres plenty of scientific excuse for some creative fudge factor adjustments.. Namely NON-uniform MASS.. If these were the exact same density steel blocks then volume equivalence would be a totally moot factor.. They are not solid steel blocks.. theres alot of different density parts that more than likely have to be in increasing size and volume to accommodate movement of heavier structure..

The arguments along this line can go on for days.. armor thickness, modular weapons systems factoring into the base volume or not, cockpit sizes being differing volumes of AIR.. the only scientific decision is that there cannot be an accurate scientific decision and that there has to be some fudge factor to accommodate for factors that cannot be easily judged and measured..

i think the javelin is another one of those examples of when they should have stepped back and said does this really seem to fit in as a 30t mech.. cause from all the comparisions against 35t mechs it doesnt fit... someone line up the urbie spider javelin cheeta in a row and tell me that something doesnt look amiss..

[Khobai]

Quote

actually, width is usually more an issue than height.

no height is usually more of an issue if your hardpoints arnt high mounted

[Gwei Loong]

The idea of the rescale was ok. Some mechs needed to be rescaled.
I do not remember who originally posted this but the volumetric issue was it's based on 3d models.
When we target someone we are firing at how their 2d model looks to us.
When you see a BK you don't see the whole 3'd model of the mech in game you see the monster looking 2'd model that's facing you.
Way more mechs were hurt by this modeling then it helped. Unless I considered how taking a tier 1 mech and making it tier 2 or 3 balanced out the field a bit by making a tier 5 mech more viable.
This is not the way I approach things though, so I have had a hard time understanding it.
I wouldn't personally go after something that's working well and try to hinder it's performance to make it more in line. I'd rather look at the models having trouble and think of ways to improve them.
Black Knights are just so large you cannot twist worth crap anymore and being sort of a front line mech it died out with the passing of the brawler. Remember it got hit with a quirk reduction at the same time.
Once upon a time I had some fantastic brawls in it.
It still has the hard points for sniping but it's not able to take much return fire. I think the Atlas size hitbox's on a IS heavy are a failure. It's best days where when I could consider XL safe.

[kapusta11]

But volume adds up, bruh!

[Gwei Loong]

Lol ^^ funny joke. So true.

Edited by Gwei Loong, 15 May 2017 - 06:02 AM.

[MerryIguana]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 May 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

(ACH was death knell for FS9s before the rescale)

lolno

[mogs01gt]

CK16, on 14 May 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

God an M60 and. Bradley are "bigger" than an Abrams they must weight more!

Which dimensions are you referring to? The Abrams is wider and longer when the gun is forward. Not sure which Bradly you are referring to but their personnel carriers are hollow so of course they would be bigger. Tanks make a horrible comparison to Mechs mainly due to futuristic technology and how mechs are humanoid.

A better comparison is a grown man vs a child. The man may be 4x their weight but not 4x their size.

[Bishop Steiner]

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

Which dimensions are you referring to? The Abrams is wider and longer when the gun is forward. Not sure which Bradly you are referring to but their personnel carriers are hollow so of course they would be bigger. Tanks make a horrible comparison to Mechs mainly due to futuristic technology and how mechs are humanoid.

A better comparison is a grown man vs a child. The man may be 4x their weight but not 4x their size.

same dimension the OP and everyone else is complaining about... being taller is apparently akin to being bigger in the minds of some folk.

Because that's the only dimension that matters, apparently. (Which is laughably wrong, but I digress)

standard A2 Bradley is 9.78 ft according to Wikipedia
Abrams is 8ft even.

Therefore by the logic of the OP and others, the Bradley (27 tons) is scaled larger than the Abrams (65 tons).

Because everything in this game is a static 2D B-27 Silhouette target... not a dynamic, 3D model that twists, turns, presents partial profiles and such.

[Dogstar]

JadePanther, on 15 May 2017 - 01:03 AM, said:

theres plenty of scientific excuse for some creative fudge factor adjustments.. Namely NON-uniform MASS.. If these were the exact same density steel blocks then volume equivalence would be a totally moot factor.. They are not solid steel blocks.. theres alot of different density parts that more than likely have to be in increasing size and volume to accommodate movement of heavier structure..

You are absolutely right, what PGI should have done was resize mechs by volume but also apply a class and/or faction factor.

Thus Is mechs could have been slightly smaller ton for ton than clan mechs thus providing an extra balancing factor.

It could even have been done by class so that lights could be a little bit smaller

As it is a lot of clan mechs, because they are deep bodied chicken walkers, end up being quite small from the front and easily able to spread damage whereas Is mechs, being mostly humanoid, are large from the front and aren't quite as good at spreading damage

[Coolant]

lights can run through entire teams and escape yellow or orange. That would rarely ever happen in MW4:Mercs. They don't need to be any smaller. They are already tougher to kill then they should be imo.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dogstar, on 15 May 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

As it is a lot of clan mechs, because they are deep bodied chicken walkers, end up being quite small from the front and easily able to spread damage whereas Is mechs, being mostly humanoid, are large from the front and aren't quite as good at spreading damage

Not entirely true.

Chickenwalkers and humanoids spread damage differently, but one form is not inherently better.

Chickenwalkers like the Maruader or Catapult, spread it by slightly twitching, spreading the damage over the three torsos. At least the well shaped one. No one complains about the Mad Dog tanking damage like a boss. But few have arms that do much to help with that.

Humanoids tend to have to twist more, but a large number, like the Griffin, Battlemaster and Shadowhawk, or Centruion... even the lowly Assassin, have arms that absorb most of the incoming fire, when a person uses them right.

If most of your firepower is in your torsos, which is what all the cool kids do ( ), where do you want the damage to go to.... across your three torsos, or your arms?

Both forms can be quite tanky. A lot of factors go in to that, including twist rates, etc. Both forms also have some absolute dogs, for durability. (Direwolf, EBJ and MDD are examples of less than tanky Chickenwalkers.....or the antichicken walker, but walker geometried Jenner)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 15 May 2017 - 07:47 AM.

[Trev Firestorm]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 May 2017 - 07:32 AM, said:

same dimension the OP and everyone else is complaining about... being taller is apparently akin to being bigger in the minds of some folk.

Because that's the only dimension that matters, apparently. (Which is laughably wrong, but I digress)

standard A2 Bradley is 9.78 ft according to Wikipedia
Abrams is 8ft even.

Therefore by the logic of the OP and others, the Bradley (27 tons) is scaled larger than the Abrams (65 tons).

Because everything in this game is a static 2D B-27 Silhouette target... not a dynamic, 3D model that twists, turns, presents partial profiles and such.

Comparing an apc/ifv to a tank is really not applicable here, none of the mechs are carrying troops for one...

[DAYLEET]

Trev Firestorm, on 15 May 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

Comparing an apc/ifv to a tank is really not applicable here, none of the mechs are carrying troops for one...

Because volume does not equal mass. We are not block of solid metal. Size should be use in moderation to balance things out. It makes no sense that a wolfhound is so huge when seen from the cockpit of a pult thats 30 ton heavier. The pult has big components but they are not sculpted out of solid metal.

[JediPanther]

I'm just waiting to see if any of the is lights are used once they get hit with their removal of acceleration and deceleration quirks which are supposedly going to be made into skills now. The only reason the locust is used isn't because it survived the fat-ening of rescale but that it had those very necessary 50-60% quirks. If the jenner were the same size as the locust with exact same quirks you'd see it used as well.

At least the Catapults got smaller which makes them my new light mech.

[Trev Firestorm]

DAYLEET, on 15 May 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

Because volume does not equal mass. We are not block of solid metal. Size should be use in moderation to balance things out. It makes no sense that a wolfhound is so huge when seen from the cockpit of a pult thats 30 ton heavier. The pult has big components but they are not sculpted out of solid metal.

Point --->



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