47 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

275 engine rating Warhammer? Hahahahahaha! Yeah, that will increase my survivability, alright. Yer a real comedian.

youre an idiot

losing 25 engine rating to go from dying when one side torso is destroyed to dying when two side torsos are destroyed is completely worth it.

25 engine rating is only a few kph of speed. vs doubling the amount of damage you can take before dying.

Edited by Khobai, 16 May 2017 - 12:23 AM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 16 May 2017 - 12:21 AM, said:

youre an idiot

losing 25 engine rating to go from dying when one side torso is destroyed to dying when two side torsos are destroyed is completely worth it.

25 engine rating is only a few kph of speed. vs doubling the amount of damage you can take before dying.

I'm only gonna be an idiot if I follow your suggestion. The smart thing to do is to play Clan mechs and move at 87 kph while surviving ST shots.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm only gonna be an idiot if I follow your suggestion. The smart thing to do is to play Clan mechs and move at 87 kph while surviving ST shots.

summoner goes 91

summoner is like the clan version of the warhammer

[Dogstar]

Khobai, on 16 May 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

summoner is like the clan version of the warhammer

Nah, the summoner is like the ugly sister of the warhammer

[Khobai]

Quote

Nah, the summoner is like the ugly sister of the warhammer

ugly athletic sister that can run 20kph faster and polevault through the air

summoner is actually pretty cool to use now that other heavies like the timberwolf have had their agility nerfed heavily

although its loadouts are mostly limited to brawling loadouts because it doesnt have the tonnage for weapons like gauss.

Edited by Khobai, 16 May 2017 - 12:37 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ced Riggs, on 15 May 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Stop losing your marbles about all of this. Those "I WILL LEAVE" posts are pathetic. Stop clinging to something just because you are used to it, and adapt to the new system. If you are comparing it to the old, you will never find the clear sight to embrace the new. It's the same in every game that goes through a major overhaul. I can guarantee you, the top dogs are already equipped with a plan on how to approach the new system, and while you complain and moan, you'll be left behind and get stomped.

LOL ... adapt to a new system which sole purpose is to scam money out of people. Let me explain smth to ya ... your "meaningful choices" in the skill-maze cost you c-bills and exp, that is either your time or your money. Go ahead, spend your time and money, the thing is, mechs are obviously unbalanced, skill-maze itself is obviously unbalanced, thus they will obviously change it a couple months later, nerfing your choices and buffing stuff nobody purchased. But hey, surprise surprise, you will not be getting anything back and you'll be forced to spend either your time or money again if you want to respec and make those "meaningful choices" again. Nor will you be getting anything after the next wave of skill node nerfs, and the next, and the next ...

The "top dogs" already know that having 5 coolshots per mech in a light competitive drop or having 5 airstrikes per mech in a heavy competitive drop is an enormous advantage. That is 200k c-bills per drop. That happens in a lobby which gives you no c-bills / exp earnings. So yeah, please tell us and the rest of people that we are supposed to adapt to being treated like nothing but wallets.

Go ahead and "adapt" to it all you want but also stop telling people what to do when you have no fkn clue yourself.

[B0oN]

less than 12 hours to skill tree deployment
about 5 days until my deserter cooldown is over

IS prepare thy garage, this Shortbus needs a cosy parking spot

[Duke Nedo]

Khobai, on 16 May 2017 - 12:19 AM, said:

Mediums will still need XL. But thats because Mediums are inferior to Heavies in virtually every way. So theyre forced to use XL just to be minimally viable.

Thats a role warfare problem not an engine problem.

Even on the clan side, clan heavies outperform clan mediums by a huge margin.

The reason I will use LFEs in many of my mediums is that the tonnage penalty for going from a XL to a LFE is bearable on a 250-280 engine rating. I don't think any Heavy or Assault can really afford sacrificing the tonnage and still be competitive not using an XL when the rating is 300-400. If these can't use an XL efficiently I will not play them. There may be the odd exception that can afford a LFE300, but mostly so.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 16 May 2017 - 01:35 AM.

[El Bandito]

Duke Nedo, on 16 May 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

The reason I will use LFEs in many of my mediums is that the penalty for going from a XL to a LFE is bearable on a 250-280 engine rating. I don't think any Heavy or Assault can really afford sacrificing the tonnage and still be competitive not using an XL when the rating is 300-400. If these can't use an XL efficiently I will not play them. There may be the odd exception that can afford a LFE300, but mostly so.

Yep, the 5xLPL BLR-2C, for example, cannot switch to LFE without trading away mobility and heat. And now it is losing 10% range it had. For a midrange build, and for the only mech that can out-trade Clanners at that range, it is significant.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 May 2017 - 01:39 AM.

[Ced Riggs]

PhoenixFire55, on 16 May 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

The "top dogs" already know that having 5 coolshots per mech in a light competitive drop or having 5 airstrikes per mech in a heavy competitive drop is an enormous advantage.

stop telling people what to do when you have no fkn clue yourself.

Right back at'cha. You cannot equip 5 cool shots, or 5 air strikes/artilleries, at least as of last PTS. So, by virtue of you having "no fkn clue", I'd say, stop. Unless that has changed - then I'll gladly eat the words of this post. You could equip 2 coolshots (just like now), or 2 UAVs (+1) or 2 Arty/Airstrikes (+1), though.

[Wayland]

Lol at the clan players trying to talk up I.S. viability so they have opponents to stomp in faction play. The players that actually pilot I.S. mechs on a regular basis know how much the skill tree is hurting I.S. mechs. Enjoy your ghost drops for the next 2 months until Civil War tech appears.

[CDLord HHGD]

Ced Riggs, on 15 May 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Hey,

Because everyone's all up in arms about things, here's what's to come in simple terms.

1.) Engine desync
Engine X no longer provides turn rate Y, accel/decel rate Z. Instead, turn rates are tied to the chassis. Accel/Decel are functions tied to the chassis, but always depending on Delta-V of current speed and top speed. A high top speed will result in a better accel/decel rate implicitly. And some mechs, such as the Phoenix Hawk, get their base mobility vastly pushed beyond their contemporaries in the base line stats. Which is amplified further by the skill tree, as that's a modifier to the base line.

2.) Skilltree Meganerf
We're all getting nerfed in firepower, and buffed in suvivabilty. The obvious effect is a deceleration of gameplay, and an increase in TTK (Read: killing takes longer, matches go longer). That's the basis for every mech. Don't get hung up on your specific favourite mech. You aren't losing X, everything is changing in regards to X.

3.) Skilltree IS blanket nerf
Again, everyone's getting nerfed, only IS mechs get hit harder less hard. IS mechs lean towards durability, and durability is getting buffed. Clan mechs lean towards firepower, and firepower is getting nerfed. IS mechs add base-quirks for armor/structure to skilltree buffs. Clams simply lose over 10% cooldown reduction across the board.

4.) The sky is falling.
It's not, the game is transitioning to a less restrictive (rule of three) system and on the way, some old things are being reworked. To reduce TTK, firepower needs to go down (happening), durabiltiy needs to go up (happening). Which, in turn, bridges the gap between IS and Clan.

Stop losing your marbles about all of this. Those "I WILL LEAVE" posts are pathetic. Stop clinging to something just because you are used to it, and adapt to the new system. If you are comparing it to the old, you will never find the clear sight to embrace the new. It's the same in every game that goes through a major overhaul. I can guarantee you, the top dogs are already equipped with a plan on how to approach the new system, and while you complain and moan, you'll be left behind and get stomped.

Read, understand, have a plan.

QFT!

[Ced Riggs]

Wayland, on 16 May 2017 - 04:25 AM, said:

Lol at the clan players trying to talk up I.S. viability so they have opponents to stomp in faction play.

Agreed, that's despicable.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Summary: Bend over, spread 'em, no lube, PGI incoming...take up the pooper like a man, no matter what people say, they do not listen.

[Acehilator]

Holy hell, Clan apologists at it again. Two tips to consider if you don't want to look like clueless imbeciles:

1. Check your sources - new tech release is set for July, not June. And with the skill tree delays, and the energy weapon balance pass in June, August is more likely. So IS gets nerfed two to three months prior to buffs. And even if the energy weapon rebalance will favour IS, why nerf the already disadvantaged faction in advance? Or is this the point at which you tell me faction balance is almost perfect atm, like PGI seems to think? You can do that with a straight face?

2. Nobody with a basic understanding of how MWO works is going to skill Survival. So stop heralding IS structure bonuses as the saviour of faction balance. Math why it isn't was already provided, but just keep brushing if off.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 15 May 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

Night Gyr loses no weapon performance and is picking up better velocity and cooling as well as range, plus gauss quirks to give you a bit more time to aim.

Outside of trying to see if I can reclaim some of the lost Gauss CD from no more weapon mods - I really don't see me touching much of the firepower tree for my Night Gyrs. Very little there is of actual value.

Ops and Mobility will be where my NTG spends the most heavily by far. The firepower tree is easily at the bottom of the list for NTG priorities, there just isn't enough value there to justify the investment for the NTG.

Edited by Ultimax, 16 May 2017 - 05:34 AM.

[Ardwolf]

OP, I don't think you've really done as much research as you think. IS are losing a LOT of quirks. Some build-defined mechs are going straight into the garbage(LCT-1V, CDA-3C, BJ-1, to name a few). That is, unless I missed an announcement somewhere. Now, that's not to say clan aren't getting hit as well; I'm going to miss shredding with my 10 SPL novas. The issue is that a lot of the unquirked clan mechs are getting universal buffs in every avenue besides mobility(Which they can partially get back), when they were already quite strong to begin with.

The defensive quirks are also not as super star spangled **** awesome as you're making them out to be. Take my AS7-D, the mack daddy of beef for example:
CT Structure before skilltree: 62.
CT Structure after skilltree: 77.5
Difference: 15.5
CT Armor before skilltree: 155
CT Armor after skilltree: 170.5
Difference: 15.5
Total difference: 31 effective hp in the CT.
Total skillpoint investment: 29~ points.

I opted to keep it simple and only calculate CT, but I did use arguably the tankiest mech in the game to demonstrate how minute the increase is proportional to the skill investment. This is also assuming IS mechs retain all their structure/armor quirks.

Now the real question is: Does clan get enough effective damage to overcome that 31 hp difference? My objective analysis is, well, yes. Universally there will be less clan damage spread(SRM/LBX spread, projectile speed, and energy burn skills they didn't have before) which will reduce their TTK. More damage where they want it to be. This will become an even bigger factor when you consider that clans will be getting even more range(Again, courtesy of skills) which will make the above mentioned points even more significant.

The fact of the matter is: The de-quirkening is a net loss for IS, nearly across the board. Some clan mechs won't escape unscathed either, but the vast majority of meta clan mechs don't have quirks to begin with, so they're getting a hit to mobility for a net gain in everything else they decide to skill for. Essentially the skill tree is giving back a small portion of what IS mechs are losing with a slight edge in mobility(Not to be underestimated mind you, mobility is beautiful to have) but overall, the balance is tipping in clan's favor.

Sadly, the "CLAN OP!" potatoes might actually have a leg to stand on until the new tech comes out. I for one probably won't be playing FP until then. It'll either be queuing into 12 man decent clan units as IS, or waiting 10 minutes in queue to roll over a bunch of clueless IS potatoes. If PGI were smart(They're not, but kodiak with me.) they'd have released the skill tree with the new tech since balance was going to go right out the window anyway. So instead of 2 months or so of imbalance, we're looking at 3-4(I'm being very generous to PGI right now).

Also, screeeewwww all those clicks, man. I know a poor ******* that owns every mech in the game(Including gold mechs) and we crunched the numbers for him, assuming it takes 5 minutes to master his each mech, it's going to take him over 3 months of just clicking to master everything in his stable. That is ******.

Edited by Ardwolf, 16 May 2017 - 05:41 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Khobai, on 16 May 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

summoner goes 91

summoner is like the clan version of the warhammer

not anymore it won't
it will go 87.1 kph just like any other 70 tonner with a 350 engine

Although it will be almost twice as agile as a Warhammer.
Huh.
Might as well buy it now.

Edited by Kmieciu, 16 May 2017 - 05:51 AM.

[Ced Riggs]

Acehilator, on 16 May 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Holy hell, Clan apologists at it again. Two tips to consider if you don't want to look like clueless imbeciles:

1. Check your sources
2. Nobody with a basic understanding of how MWO works is going to skill Survival

1. For example, how not everyone with a Clan avatar is a clan player in QP. Important if you want to attack someone based on that avatar.
2. Okay. :^)

I'll refer to your signature and leave it at that. I think I did that before, mhmm. Unless someone else has the same signature. At any rate, a pattern emerges.

Ardwolf, on 16 May 2017 - 05:38 AM, said:

...

Where's the additional 31 points of damage coming from? Especially, taking into account inaccuracy, making it 15 points of damage before critical hits occurr, with critical hit reduction waiting after the armor is gone, with that 31 points of damage multiplied by multiple mechs (even if you take it down to 20)? Last I checked, Clans do not get a damage increase, or a cooldown reduction, or anything else to make up that difference. I see your point about velocity, burn time and so on increases, but those are universally mirrored for IS and often stronger on the IS side.

Olive branch, again. Will our IS mechs be better than clam mechs, will the balance be perfect, will clams become less meta and IS rule the field? Probably not. Will the new tech be some way out, will it help bridge the gap? Probably will. Is it gonna suck in the interim? Yes. But it won't suck as far as people make it out to be, and IS will not be a loser in every aspect, either. We're gonna get closer. I for one am looking forward to tweaking my Centurion with the new skilltree, and I am going to make good use of changes towards fleshing out the mechs off the beaten paths of their currently locked-in loadouts.

I guess that's my bottomline. It won't be as bad as people say, and IS will gain in some aspects more than clans do. Step by step. Patch by patch. Trying to see some good in these changes, too.

[nehebkau]

Everyone just needs to give it a couple of days for the min-maxers to figure out the optimal skill tree progression for each mech and we are all back in business.