91 replies to this topic

[Mako109]

Dee Eight, on 17 May 2017 - 02:24 AM, said:

You never screen captured your old turn rates and acceleration before the patch to compare to the baseline locust figures or what happens with a few skill nodes... DID YOU ?

You're just assuming because percentages are smaller then that's bad. Did you even look at the quirk pdfs with the desynced agility values in them ?

The base accel is now 77.69, decel is 171.25, turn rate is 107.71.

Funny for you... I did! I did with the exact intention to make a comparison.

https://www.reddit.c...is_my_mastered/

Here is the Outreach thread I made on it; the one on the left is my Pirate's Bane, mastered, pre-Skill Tree. On the right is post skill tree with all Mobility skills toggled. It's kinda gross, as you can see from the chart. However, pre-skill tree, that chart didn't have the additional information that the post-skill tree one has, unfortunately. However...

As further evidence: https://static.mwome...re%20Quirks.pdf

This is a list of all the Inner Sphere quirk changes. Halfway down page 2, you will see the Pirate's Bane. -60% Acceleration, -60% Deceleration, and -50% Turn Speed.

Do you want to know the most you can get out of the Skill Tree?

+24.5% Acceleration, +24.5% Deceleration, and +25% Turn Speed.

It was a flat out nerf. No two ways about it.

[102_devill]

Brody, on 17 May 2017 - 02:41 AM, said:

We had a choice before... we could choose to put an improved gyro module on a mech, or we could choose to bring something that actually worked. Now we have the same choice, improved gyro or something that actually works. IT JUST LOOKS DIFFERENT!! and everything moves slower now....

Ok, I am going to boil it down so that even you can understand:

the current system can yield an almost identical configuration as before for a given mech, except now you don't have so many modules.

For example: in the current system you cant have both LL cooldown AND range AND radar dep. HOWEVER, you can make a choice to take all those 3 modules, IF you dont have full mobility skill from the old skill tree.

It is very simple, but only if you want to actually give it a tiny bit of thought, instead of just ranting.

Mako109, on 17 May 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

It was a flat out nerf. No two ways about it.

And this nerf is only for the Locust? Or do other mechs suffer from it?

[Taxxian]

@Maiko109

Please read the Patch Nodes...

The old movement Quirks are factored into the base values of the mechs, they were NOT removed, they simly dont count as quirk anymore.

Only the movement buffs from big engines were removed, and that you are supposed to counte via the skills you mentioned...

There are so many people complaining about facts that are simply not true here... RTFPN if you know what I mean...

I already skilled many mechs, most of them IS, that are actually better now than before... you just have to give it a try!

Edited by Taxxian, 17 May 2017 - 03:36 AM.

[Mako109]

Taxxian, on 17 May 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

@Maiko109

Please read the Patch Nodes...

The old movement Quirks are factored into the base values of the mechs, they were NOT removed, they simly dont count as quirk anymore.

Only the movement buffs from big engines were removed, and that you are supposed to counte via the skills you mentioned...

There are so many people complaining about facts that are simply not true here... RTFPN if you know what I mean...

I already skilled many mechs, most of them IS, that are actually better now than before... you just have to give it a try!

Whether they were or not doesn't matter in the end; you still see the chart I posted with before and after comparisons. And I KNOW it's worse because I've been playing with my Locust since the patch dropped, and I can feel the difference. I spent the entire previous day using the old locust just so I knew my comparison base was up to date.

The nerfs are there. It is undeniable.

[102_devill]

It is really ridiculous! Even The Bible expressly says: thou shall never nerf!

/end sarcasm

[DAEDALOS513]

Not being able to experiment with different builds on a mech without making it a huge chore is a big hit against enjoyment of the game. This tree is a boondoggle of epic proportions and it needs to be rolled back yesterday.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 17 May 2017 - 04:35 AM.

[M R T]

I like the idea of the skill system, but in it's present form, it doesn't really acheive what it's supposed to. I see a lot of you saying you now have to make a choice, which I think is great, and should be what the skill system is about. But after skilling a few mechs, I've seen a definite trend. All of them end up with mostly the exact same skills with only 2-4 nodes being different per tree. This rather takes away the choices I would have made, because the skill tree doesnt allow me to choose which skills I want to focus on, it forces me to focus on all skills.

As an example, I want my spider sdr 5k to be an agile close range fighter. For this I need fast rate of fire, good heat management, good agility and I want sensors to see whats going on around me.

For weapons I need cooldown, heat gen and laser duration (since Im using lasers). I'm willing to sacrifice range, because as a close range fighter, I won't need it. However, I am not able to make that choice, because the skill tree forces me to waste 15 skill points on range skills I dont need.

Moving on to mobility, I need kinetic burst, hard brake, anchor turn and speed tweak. I'm willing to sacrifice torso yaw, torso speed and torso pitch, because even though they are useful, I don't really need them for my build. However I am not able to make that choide, because the skill tree forces me to waste 8 skill points on torso pitch, yaw and speed skills I don't need.

Finally on sensors, I need sensor range and seismic sensors, with target info gathering and radar deprivation as nice to haves. I'm willing to sacrifice target decay and target retention, and also target info gathering and radar deprevation if I must. However I am not able to make that choice, because the skill tree forces me to use 7 skill points on target info gathering, target decay and target retention skills I don't need.

As you see, I am not able to make choices and sacrifices that matter for my build. I am forced to choose skills I will never have any use for. And the worst part is that I am forced to make the same choices for every mech I have, with only a few changes in skills that doesnt really make any difference. So every mech becomes basically the same, and that's not a choice I make, that's what I'm forced to do.

[102_devill]

And before? Were you not forced to take the weapon convergence skill just so you can have a 2x to cool run and containment and other basic skills?

Yes, the current tree makes you add skills which are not useful, but what is the alternative? Just cherry-pick what you really want? That would lead to even more identical builds.

[Whiskey Peddler]

I absolutely agree! I love this and so glad PGI followed through with their plan. I hated the rule of three forcing me to buy mechs to elite. Oddly enough, now I WANT to buy those variants of the mech, not to elite, but to specialize that mech for a certain role/duty.

LOVE THIS!

[DAEDALOS513]

102_devill, on 17 May 2017 - 05:39 AM, said:

And before? Were you not forced to take the weapon convergence skill just so you can have a 2x to cool run and containment and other basic skills?

Yes, the current tree makes you add skills which are not useful, but what is the alternative? Just cherry-pick what you really want? That would lead to even more identical builds.

Then what is the real point of the skill tree?

[M R T]

102_devill, on 17 May 2017 - 05:39 AM, said:

And before? Were you not forced to take the weapon convergence skill just so you can have a 2x to cool run and containment and other basic skills?

Like I said, I like the idea of the skill system, it just needs a little work to make it acheive its goal. I don't understand why you are trying to compare it with the old system, as I was not.

102_devill, on 17 May 2017 - 05:39 AM, said:

Yes, the current tree makes you add skills which are not useful, but what is the alternative? Just cherry-pick what you really want? That would lead to even more identical builds.

I already explained what is the alternative, real choices and real sacrifices. If I want to sacrifice range, let me. If I want to sacrifice target info gathering, let me. With the present system I can't. You say that more choices would lead to even more identical builds? Mechs with the same loadout and players with identical playing style, sure, but that would be true for any system. However mechs come with different loadouts, and players have different styles. If they are allowed to choose the skills hey need to complement their loadout and their playstyle, we get different builds. As the skill system stands now, you get pretty identical skill builds, even if mechs have different loadouts and the players have different prefeered styles.

[DAEDALOS513]

Morte Nilsum, on 17 May 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

I already explained what is the alternative, real choices and real sacrifices. If I want to sacrifice range, let me. If I want to sacrifice target info gathering, let me. With the present system I can't. You say that more choices would lead to even more identical builds? Mechs with the same loadout and players with identical playing style, sure, but that would be true for any system. However mechs come with different loadouts, and players have different styles. If they are allowed to choose the skills hey need to complement their loadout and their playstyle, we get different builds. As the skill system stands now, you get pretty identical skill builds, even if mechs have different loadouts and the players have different prefeered styles.

You're making too much sense.

[Humbs]

Hi everyone,
I'd like to congratz PGI, in part, for the new patch.

This patch brought new ways of thinking on the battlefield, coordenation is much more important now and all the mechs finally have the opportunity to show more potential in their rules. However, there is a huge problem about the IS quirks.

I'm almost entirely a IS pilot, I love IS mechs and for the first time in this game, I'm not feel confortable to the remaining quirks. Armor and structure quirks should be gone along with the others nerfs. For me, it is prohibitve a heavy mech like Orion be compatible with an Atlas in amount of armor with full survival skill tree. PGI should fix this for the sake of the game.

Besides, I'm glad with the game so far and pray for a game more balanced.

[Koniks]

Hoshi Toranaga, on 16 May 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Yes you need to make sacrifices, but that is good.

A good sacrifice would be choosing between 2 equally useful skills like armor or heat gen. We have to choose between equally useless skills like decreased screen shake or increased AMS output. And we have to do that at the start of selecting skills in a tree rather than at the end, when maximizing a skill.

Not only is that tedious and punitive, it runs contrary to their stated design goals of preventing min-maxing and promoting generalized roles.

[Aurora Jones]

I'd also like to congratulate on the change.

CERTAINLY there is a lot to change and balance, things that are already clear and others that are to come (since it is so complex this skill tree demands time to be fully studied).

I particularly got a little down with the Black Widow having no ballistic quirk remaining (but having laser ones), but I am having a very nice time.

[DAEDALOS513]

I'm seeing a trend here.. most of those with more experience in the game are disliking this change.. while most of those with less experience aren't minding it. Conclusions?

[Fox the Apprentice]

Conclusion: decide for yourself. Who cares what new vs old thinks, either you like it or you don't...

[Crumudgeon]

Nr1Noob, on 17 May 2017 - 03:00 AM, said:

I like the new system makes things a bit more diverse. Only thing I wish they would add is a save template, so I can save builds and just 2 click the build on another mech.

I agree with you. However, the stated reason for the Skill Tree was to have MORE diversity of Mech Specialization, not less. If the players are going to make basically the same choices for all their mechs, you end up with less diversity. Well planned?! Working as intended?!

[Crumudgeon]

Morte Nilsum, on 17 May 2017 - 05:03 AM, said:

I like the idea of the skill system, but in it's present form, it doesn't really acheive what it's supposed to. I see a lot of you saying you now have to make a choice, which I think is great, and should be what the skill system is about. But after skilling a few mechs, I've seen a definite trend. All of them end up with mostly the exact same skills with only 2-4 nodes being different per tree. This rather takes away the choices I would have made, because the skill tree doesnt allow me to choose which skills I want to focus on, it forces me to focus on all skills.

As an example, I want my spider sdr 5k to be an agile close range fighter. For this I need fast rate of fire, good heat management, good agility and I want sensors to see whats going on around me.

For weapons I need cooldown, heat gen and laser duration (since Im using lasers). I'm willing to sacrifice range, because as a close range fighter, I won't need it. However, I am not able to make that choice, because the skill tree forces me to waste 15 skill points on range skills I dont need.

Moving on to mobility, I need kinetic burst, hard brake, anchor turn and speed tweak. I'm willing to sacrifice torso yaw, torso speed and torso pitch, because even though they are useful, I don't really need them for my build. However I am not able to make that choide, because the skill tree forces me to waste 8 skill points on torso pitch, yaw and speed skills I don't need.

Finally on sensors, I need sensor range and seismic sensors, with target info gathering and radar deprivation as nice to haves. I'm willing to sacrifice target decay and target retention, and also target info gathering and radar deprevation if I must. However I am not able to make that choice, because the skill tree forces me to use 7 skill points on target info gathering, target decay and target retention skills I don't need.

As you see, I am not able to make choices and sacrifices that matter for my build. I am forced to choose skills I will never have any use for. And the worst part is that I am forced to make the same choices for every mech I have, with only a few changes in skills that doesnt really make any difference. So every mech becomes basically the same, and that's not a choice I make, that's what I'm forced to do.

Well said! Bravo!

[Casval Lofbrook]

I played my dwf-uv before and after the skill tree patch. After the patch, i found my damage numbers decreased, kills stayed about the same. But do you know what? I had FUN. As in alot of fun. No more worries about getting gaussed to death by two night gyrs. No kodiak chainsaws of unstoppable dakka. It seems to me that alot of this hate is coming from meta cheese players who ruin the game for alot of people. My entire unit seems to love the new skill tree, and so do I. Is it the best? No, it needs work. But now my locusts have the ability to take a lucky gauss hit and keep truckin.