23 replies to this topic

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Hello: I have had some negative experiences during matches with comments by other players and I feel it's important enough to share my thoughts here and ask the community (and PGI) to make an effort to make sure the game is an environment where all -- especially newcomers -- feel comfortable, welcome and can have fun.

To make clear: I am not in favor of censorship in the real world, nor am I a fan of "political correctness" or "safe spaces" in arenas such as government, the workplace or universities where there should be a free exchange of ideas. But this is a game with the specific, limited and shared objective of having fun.

Also, unlike an online forum, when in a match all the players are a captive audience ... they cannot leave the match or shut off their chat without harming their team and game experience. In other words the players are required to read and hear in-game chat to play the game. The vast majority of players are positive, mature and supportive and eager to help newcomers. But nevertheless I have experienced the following during matches in voice and text chat:

1. Insults directed at inexperienced players (or those who made an error) such as "learn how to aim" or "learn to drive a mech" "learn how to play," and even more derisive comments, without any actual instruction or constructive criticism. (and often from players who have died and are insulting while spectating)
2. Excessive and graphic profanity and obscenity, which could be off putting to some players and inappropriate for children (who do play the game).
3. Arguments about religion and anti-Semitic tropes; e.g., triple parentheses "((( -- )))" to denote Jewish people and use of the greeting "Heil."
4. General post-match complaining about the low skil of other players (often from people who made no suggestions at all during the match about how to play it).

You might say "sticks and stones" but this type of conduct harms the whole community by driving off new players who might say "why should I subject myself to abuse in order to play a game." If you don't have patience for newbies find a team and stick with them. Otherwise realize that we all have to learn somehow and even experienced players make mistakes in game.
Regarding politics, religion and obscenity: Of course, say whatever you like in your personal/political life, on your own website, or even (to some degree) on this forum, Reddit or whatever. But please don't spoil other people's in-game experience with offensive stuff that's not even relevant to the game.
Of course tips and advice to new players is great. Insulting other players is obviously bad for everyone.

And if you witness any of these behaviors I suggest Reporting the player with the right click menu and I hope PGI will review the record and take it seriously.

Thanks! - D.

[Neil Diamond]

[Jingseng]

Have not had some of these experiences, but have quickly learned that Idiots like War 4H there are over represented in the vast bulk of humanity. There really isn't much you can do short of altogether removing them from the genepool, and that is largely considered both illegal and unethical.

I will add, however, that PGI is unlikely to take any steps. It is, unfortunately, simply not cost-effective. There are no data you can provide to support taking on hiring additional employees for round-the-clock monitoring and issue resolution - and the cost far too high. Continuing in the same vein is cheaper (by comparison), has known results, and more or less industry standard.

I can only suggest investing in a voodoo doll.

[IraqiWalker]

DeloresAbernathy, on 15 May 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

3. Arguments about religion and anti-Semitic tropes; e.g., triple parentheses "((( -- )))" to denote Jewish people and use of the greeting "Heil."

Triple Parenthesis is Jewish people?

Please elaborate as I have literally never run into that in all my years on the internet, not just MWO, but the internet.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 15 May 2017 - 06:03 PM.

[Jingseng]

IraqiWalker, on 15 May 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

Triple Parenthesis is Jewish people?

Please elaborate as I have literally never run into that in all my years on the internet, not just MWO, but the internet.

yeah me neither, but I took it as some sort of internet warping of yellow armbands or star of david.

I mean, you know how the internet ignorati hive mind takes something reasonable, and then it ends up turning into like "bbq" or something.

[Roughneck45]

Internet videogames.

Turn off your all chat and voice chat. Its all you can do.

[xengk]

DeloresAbernathy, on 15 May 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

1. Insults directed at inexperienced players (or those who made an error) such as "learn how to aim" or "learn to drive a mech" "learn how to play," and even more derisive comments, without any actual instruction or constructive criticism. (and often from players who have died and are insulting while spectating)
2. Excessive and graphic profanity and obscenity, which could be off putting to some players and inappropriate for children (who do play the game).
3. Arguments about religion and anti-Semitic tropes; e.g., triple parentheses "((( -- )))" to denote Jewish people and use of the greeting "Heil."
4. General post-match complaining about the low skil of other players (often from people who made no suggestions at all during the match about how to play it).

Sorry you have to encounter some of the less desirable of the community, they are only a minority of the player base.
However this is part and parcel of any online competitive community experience, you can report some of the obnoxious one in game by using the Report Player feature.
During a match
1. Press Tab, to bring up the score sheet
2. Click on the offending player, this will bring a list of action
3. Select Report Player

Disciplinary action seems to abit lax, it takes multiple report from many player for customer support to take action.
If you see someone with the name "mechwarrior" with bunch of random number behind, that player have some disciplinary action taken upon him or her.

IraqiWalker, on 15 May 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

Triple Parenthesis is Jewish people?

Please elaborate as I have literally never run into that in all my years on the internet, not just MWO, but the internet.

It is a 4chan thing.
((( someone ))) to imply "someone" is Jewish, particularly a bad one.

[Rogue Jedi]

As xengk said report them.
pretty much everything you mentioned is against the code of conduct, which everyone agreed to by playing, weather or not they bothered to read it.

on the list of players (hold down tab or wait for end of round) click on the name of the offending player then report and choose what looks appropiate, if that player recieves enough reports they will receive diciplinary action, then again click on that players name and click ignore and you will never again see/hear anything from them again.

Fortunatly the sort of behavior you mention is, in my experiance, uncommon and I experiance it at most 1 game in 10, probably more like 1 in 20

[Jay Sovereign]

The thing is, it doesn't drive away new players, it just pisses off the select few like you. Notice how Jingseng actually just *implied that people who say things he/she disagrees with should be killed?...

Jingseng, on 15 May 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

...There really isn't much you can do short of altogether removing them from the genepool...

So you can talk about wanting to execute other people for saying things you disagree with, meanwhile if someone said the same exact thing or something not even half as bad to you in-game, you're going to cry about it on the forums here?

And honestly, all this about "children playing the game" and "my children play" makes me laugh. Control your damned children, then. Raise them in such a way, that hearing naughty stuff on an internet game doesn't break them mentally. When you install MWO, it greets you with "THE FUTURE IS WAR" - oh I guess that doesn't scar or mentally affect a child? Those words can affect an adult, ffs.

Just play the game. When people get to you, you can do one of many things...
1) respond
2) mute them
3) report them
4) disable chat
5) take a break
6) a mixture of the above
7) all of the above

The developers gave you so many choices and yet you still want more and complain?
Teamkilling or assisting the enemy ruins a game. But typing in the chat box? Sorry, not ruining a game.

Edited by Jay Sovereign, 16 May 2017 - 12:25 PM.

[Odnir]

Jay Sovereign, on 16 May 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

The thing is, it doesn't drive away new players, it just pisses off the select few like you. Notice how the Jingseng actually just said that people who say things he/she disagrees with should be killed?...
So you can talk about wanting to execute other people for saying things you disagree with, meanwhile if someone said the same exact thing or something not even half as bad to you in-game, you're going to cry about it on the forums here?

And honestly, all this about "children playing the game" and "my children play" makes me laugh. Control your damned children, then. Raise them in such a way, that hearing naughty stuff on an internet game doesn't break them mentally. When you install MWO, it greets you with "THE FUTURE IS WAR" - oh I guess that doesn't scar or mentally affect a child? Those words can affect an adult, ffs.

Just play the game. When people get to you, you can do one of many things...
1) respond
2) mute them
3) report them
4) disable chat
5) take a break
6) a mixture of the above
7) all of the above

The developers gave you so many choices and yet you still want more and complain?
Teamkilling or assisting the enemy ruins a game. But typing in the chat box? Sorry, not ruining a game.

Your point goes both ways man. You could also just ignore her post and go whatever, doesn't affect me, I don't care. But you are complaining too.

[Rogue Jedi]

Jay Sovereign, on 16 May 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

So you can talk about wanting to execute other people for saying things you disagree with, meanwhile if someone said the same exact thing or something not even half as bad to you in-game, you're going to cry about it on the forums here?

I think you are misreading the intent behind that post, by only quoting part of the sentince you were taking it out of context, Jinsing may well have been implying killing the people is the only way to stop that sort if id10t1c behavior but, to me, it did not read like he/she was endorsing doing so, the full paragraph was:

Jingseng, on 15 May 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Have not had some of these experiences, but have quickly learned that Idiots like War 4H there are over represented in the vast bulk of humanity. There really isn't much you can do short of altogether removing them from the genepool, and that is largely considered both illegal and unethical.

but you quoted

Quote

...There really isn't much you can do short of altogether removing them from the genepool...

and thus were taking it out of context and reading intent into it which I do not believe was there.

I could be wrong but quoting out of context is a trick tabloid newspapers use to sell papers, and is also popular in propoganda, it does not usualy help your credibility.

[Neil Diamond]

Jingseng, on 15 May 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Have not had some of these experiences, but have quickly learned that Idiots like War 4H there are over represented in the vast bulk of humanity. There really isn't much you can do short of altogether removing them from the genepool, and that is largely considered both illegal and unethical.

I will add, however, that PGI is unlikely to take any steps. It is, unfortunately, simply not cost-effective. There are no data you can provide to support taking on hiring additional employees for round-the-clock monitoring and issue resolution - and the cost far too high. Continuing in the same vein is cheaper (by comparison), has known results, and more or less industry standard.

I can only suggest investing in a voodoo doll.

How does it feel to overreact on a forum? I will continue to help fellow players and report players who cross the boundaries in game. Just as I have since I became better at this game and notice new folks struggling.

'Genepool'? Seems you wish to lay claim to the chlorine and frankly, I'd rather have someone with less judgemental issues to be the keeper. You don't know me, nor will you ever.

All of this over a meme? But hey, thanks for swinging and missing champ.

Edited by War 4H, 16 May 2017 - 10:42 AM.

[Roland09]

DeloresAbernathy, on 15 May 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

1. Insults [...] such as "learn how to aim" or "learn to drive a mech" "learn how to play," [...]

I strongly feel that if you consider the above examples to be reportable offences (report = calling for moderating action, up to and including a ban on the offending party), then you have very little business playing a game a fundamental part of which includes violently removing other players from said game, i. e. simulated shooting and stuff.

After all, my tender sensibilities might get offended by your Gauss round impacting my CT...

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

I am thankful to know more about the options -- I did not know for example that you can specifically block a single player in match chat (I did know you could do it in general chat/messaging in the game lobby). But why assume in the New Player Help section that someone did know all this (like most things in MWO there is no obvious documentation)?

But these tools don't entirely address the problem. The phenomenon would not be an issue in even 1 out of 20 games if community standards were just a little higher, and if people other than the victim of the abuse would oppose the the conduct. (That is how bullying and teasing has been all but eradicated in schools and camps -- probably the only big change in kids' lives that I applaud since I was a kid, other than 3D graphics acceleration (as it was called in the stone age).

In case there is actual disagreement about what violates the Code of Conduct (i.e., Terms of Service, aka the Rules of the Game) -- the relevant provisions are pasted below. While reasonable people can differ about what some of this means, the position that violating the terms of service is "part of the game" or inherent in "online play" is a contradiction: if it's against the rules it's not part of the game, just like cheating or deliberate team killing. The idea that someone should stop playing if they don't like other people's violations of the rules makes no sense. Actually, this sort of thing becomes more prevalent when it is tolerated and treated "as part of the game".

These are cut and pasted from the PGI Code of Conduct:

"Engaging in any of the following actions while using PGI services is forbidden:

• Posting or referring to sexual and/or violent actions.
  
• Posting or referring to pornography.
  
• Posting or referring to reproductive organs, waste organs, or inappropriate bodily functions.
  
• Circumventing a word filter.
  
• Using divisive or otherwise offensive language.
  
• ...
  
• Engaging in intimidation tactics or aggravation of other individuals or groups of individuals.
  
• Referring insultingly to or personally attacking other individuals based on gender, race, religion, age, nation, or any other characteristic or alignment regarding a group of individuals.
  
• Alluding to symbols or phrases of racial, ethnic, national, political, or religious hatred.
  
• Using slurs or phrases of a sensitive or potentially offensive nature.
  
• Impersonating another individual.
  
• Naming and shaming the alleged misconduct of another individual, including but not limited to accusations of cheating or exploiting.
  
• ..............
  
• Encouraging negative behavior toward other individuals, genders, races, religions, nations, or other groups of individuals.
  
• Causing disturbances, such as picking fights, making off topic posts that derail a discussion, or insulting other individuals.
  
• Communicating non-constructive comments."

All of the above is just not part of the game. So all I am suggesting is that people be aware if it and have expectations that these Rules will be followed. Thanks! - D.

Edited by DeloresAbernathy, 16 May 2017 - 11:45 AM.

[Jay Sovereign]

Odnir, on 16 May 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Your point goes both ways man. You could also just ignore her post and go whatever, doesn't affect me, I don't care. But you are complaining too.

lmao no
edit* This is the millionth thread about this I've seen here, so I am thus responding via internet forum. By your own logic, you just complained as well. You and others simply think that anything remotely neutral or negative others say (which you happen to disagree with when the time is right for you) is a complaint and it's actually not.

And also, to the OP, saying things like "learn to play/aim/pilot mech" is not at all the same thing as those rules because now the tutorial of the game is in violation of the code of conduct.

THIS JUST IN! MWO TUTORIAL AND ACADEMY IS IN VIOLATION OF ITS OWN CODE OF CONDUCT DUE TO TRIGGERING, ENGLISH LANGUAGE, SENSITIVITY.

^Now you see, this loading screen is telling the player "git gud or disconnect keke"

But maybe you don't want to "Learn to control and/or Master your mech" or listen to teammates... maybe you just want to sign on here and there, and enjoy YOURSELF. Thing is, MWO (even in quickplay) is a team-based game, simple as that. When someone says "learn to pilot mech" just respond with "I'm new" and ask how to get better. Everybody wants to help those that actually ask. But if you don't ask, people don't help you cuz they assume you don't give a crud. How lowly do you think of this community that you think we won't help you if you ask?

So, in case you are in disagreement with what constitutes non-constructive comments, (you think the tutorial is offensive/non-constructive) visit dictionary.com...
http://www.dictionar...onstructive?s=t
constructive
[kuh n-struhk-tiv]
adjective
1. helping to improve; promoting further development or advancement(opposed to destructive ):
constructive criticism.
2. of, relating to, or of the nature of construction; structural.
3. deduced by inference or interpretation; inferential:
constructive permission.
4. Law. denoting an act or condition not directly expressed but inferredfrom other acts or conditions.

So, someone telling you "learn to play" is actually constructive and should actually encourage you to learn to play, as opposed to someone saying "delete your account, you shouldn't play this game." This is why the tutorial loading screen tells you "learn to control and master your mech" because it tries to be constructive and promote you to be your best, learn, get better, and rise above.

Edited by Jay Sovereign, 16 May 2017 - 01:13 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Jay Sovereign, on 16 May 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

So, someone telling you "learn to play" is actually constructive and should actually encourage you to learn to play, as opposed to someone saying "delete your account, you shouldn't play this game." This is why the tutorial loading screen tells you "learn to control and master your mech" because it tries to be constructive and promote you to be your best, learn, get better, and rise above.

I disagree, someone telling you to "learn to play" is almost always intended and taken as an insult, constructive criticism would be "pressing R would tell you where to shoot and the enemy loadout" or "did you realise firing your small lasers at 280m does almost no damage"

do you see the diferance, offering advise on how to improve is totaly diferant to saying "get good".

[Jay Sovereign]

It doesn't matter what you take it as. It's not offensive - it's a suggestion. Not everybody talks or types the way you'd like them to. Suggesting to someone that they need improvement in general or in a specific regard should not be a banable offense.

Am I wrong in assuming that you think someone saying "learn to play" is a reportable or banable offense?

Edited by Jay Sovereign, 18 May 2017 - 11:55 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Jay Sovereign, on 16 May 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

Am I wrong in assuming that you think someone saying "learn to play" is a reportable or banable offense?

I persionaly would not report someone for saying that, but it is almost always, in my experiance, intended as an insult ^{(usualy by someone who made a mistake leading to them being killed early, and has a much lower score than the persion they are sugesting it to, who is unable to accept they could be at fault)} if it was intended as constructive criticism they would at least offer a sugestion for an area of improvement.

telling you to get better without offering any sugestions on how to do so is not constructive and therefore could be reported.

the majority of reports I make are for profanity in text chat or VOIP

[IraqiWalker]

xengk, on 15 May 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

It is a 4chan thing.
((( someone ))) to imply "someone" is Jewish, particularly a bad one.

Even there, I mostly run into blatant ones. Maybe I haven't spent enough time on /pol to run into that, I guess.

Thanks for the heads up, and I'll be on the lookout.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

The parentheses became a thing used by the "alt-right" during the campaign, mainly in twitter.