21 replies to this topic

[N0D]

Let's take a hypothetical situation and say that i was living (mostly) under a rock up till now, and i don't really know much about the new skill system, but i'm willing to give it a go at testing it out for a particular mech.
That mech is KDK-3: http://imgur.com/mQzMU93 - classical quad C-UAC/10 loadout, which, despite all the nerfs, still somehow works for me just fine. Whenever i survive the first contact with enemies and stay behind some teammates, i score about 800-1000 damage without much fuss. Basically, KDK-3 is my c-bill grinding solo "workhorse" at the moment. After the update i've come up with this skill build: http://imgur.com/IYwBgbQ
It prioritizes uac jam chance, less heat gen, cooldown, heat containment, heat dissipation, and torso twist speed (naturally, because all my weapons are torso-mounted). Velocity and ammo bonuses should in theory be helpful too. JJ tree is totally incompatible and consumables tree seem to have nothing worthwhile for a solo player. Sadly, i can't go full radar derp, because it requires a prerequisite of, iirc, 10 nodes that are useless for me. And it's bothering me because i was playing with the corresponding module installed for a very long time. It saved me from an lrm-boat fire innumerable times and now i don't even know if there's "life without it".

That said, does anyone have any suggestions and remarks about this particular skill build and/or loadout? Do you think that with such a playstyle (facetanking and dishing out constant damage) armor and structure nodes should be preferred over weapon ones overall, maybe? How should the build look like then skilltree-wise?

[Leone]

I am saddened by your lack of survivability. As a 100 tonne assault you'll get the most out of that tree. I'd almost suggest taking out the left hand of firepower or the right hand of manouverability.

If you pump a full 23 pts into survivability (Ignore the wings an ams overload,) you can get a full 10.5% armour boost and a whopping 24% structure buff.

Think on that when you consider a 'facetime' build, and know someone on the other team'll've gone that route.

~Leone.

[N0D]

Leone, yes, well, it sounds impressive indeed. But what exactly should i sacrifice for it? Any heat-related skills are probably off the question, because the loadout is heat intensive and i'd like to compensate for it a bit
Left weapon wing marked skills are comprised mostly out of cooldown and heat gen alone. If it were velocity and range, i wouldn't be having any second thoughts on sacrificing them.
I don't remember what skills are on the right wing of Agility tree and can't check atm. But that's still only 6-7 skills freed. Out of 23 you mentioned.

[MustrumRidcully]

Leone, on 17 May 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

I am saddened by your lack of survivability. As a 100 tonne assault you'll get the most out of that tree. I'd almost suggest taking out the left hand of firepower or the right hand of manouverability.

If you pump a full 23 pts into survivability (Ignore the wings an ams overload,) you can get a full 10.5% armour boost and a whopping 24% structure buff.

Think on that when you consider a 'facetime' build, and know someone on the other team'll've gone that route.

~Leone.

But is that really worth it, if he then promptly overheats in face of his enemy, giving the enemy one extra shot, that will be enough to compensate those extra armor and structure points?

I think I'd favor offense, too. Dead enemies can't hurt you, and there are common situation where you die where some extra armor doesn't really help - when you get focused, for example.

[Roughneck45]

Quad UAC10 was too hot before the skill tree, after they changed the ghost heat penalties for them.

Structure is the strongest tree right now IMO, especially for assaults.

Offense tree tweaks your guns, but it doesn't increase the raw damage. Maybe an argument for slightly higher dps.

Edited by Roughneck45, 17 May 2017 - 11:38 AM.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Kudos to you that you can have success with this! How do you avoid ghost heat on a 4xUAC10 build? I went with 2x10 and 2x5 for that reason. Three shots of the UAC10 (within 500 ms) gives you 8 extra heat and four gives you 13 extra (on a base of 3 per shot). Even with a macro it's not obvious to me how you can use the double tap and avoid ghost heat, since the timer has only one setting, but I haven't tested it out fully. But if I did this manually in a pinch I would be firing away with abandon, and can't count by half seconds anyway.

[N0D]

Well, i dunno. It indeed is hot, but i seem to be performing just fine in this loadout, imho. Here's a folder with a couple of my screens:
http://imgur.com/a/XFz3c
There's no secret to it, really. I don't even think that i'm all that exceptionally good with kdk-3. I just burst some shots until i almost overheat, and then back off to cover for cooling off. This helps with survivability too: kodiak is a nice, juicy target for enemies, thus staying out in the open for long periods of time is a very bad practise for the mech's health.
My weapon groups are: two left torso ac's on the LMB, and two right torso ac's on the RMB. For firing either of the groups independently, out of the side of a tall cover.

So... any other ideas of a skill build and/or loadout? Anyone?

I heard that quad lbx10 kdk-3 is not so bad too...

Edited by N0D, 17 May 2017 - 10:53 PM.

[N0D]

Update: this one looks promising, i think:
quad c-LB10-X KDK-3
http://i.imgur.com/LWCjSA2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nJfaJ3I.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fb3hfl5.jpg

Loadout does roughly twice less burst damage and it's not so as pinpoint at farther ranges. However, at closer ones, it certainly can keep reliably firing for longer periods of time. Plus LBX do have lower heat buildup and no ghost heat even if fired all 4 at once (which increases viability of "BOOM-TWIST-BOOM" maneuver)

Skill tree.
Weapons: just two LBX spread nodes and their prerequisites. And an odd velocity node, because i had 1 skill point i didn't know where to place.
Agility: torso twist speed! All of it. Weapons are torso-mounted, ~nuff said.
Armor: All of armor hardening and almost all of structure bonuses for a healthy +10% armor and +20% structure.
JJ and consumables tree: had to skip this. Not much to say.
Mech operations: meh. Heat is not really a problem... i've taken +9% to heat containment and +4% cool run bonuses total, though. There's too much useless junk out here to go even further down - i don't really need no speed retention, hill climb and ignition speed.
Sensor systems: this is where it really shines! Full radar derp, full seismic sensor, full target retention (your lrm-boat teammates will love you), very nice bonus to targ info gather - you'll need this because LBX is a crit-machine against cored mechs...

So... any good?

[Jay Leon Hart]

N0D, on 19 May 2017 - 01:59 AM, said:

quad c-LB10-X KDK-3

A re-jig of your build
LBX do not benefit from the velocity or crit chance increases provided by a Targeting Computer, so I dropped it. Then, I moved a lot of that armour from your right arm to your legs - you need your legs a lot more that you need that arm and extra ton of ammo!

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 19 May 2017 - 02:53 AM.

[N0D]

Jay Leon Hart, on 19 May 2017 - 02:53 AM, said:

LBX do not benefit from the velocity or crit chance increases provided by a Targeting Computer

Are you sure about that? Nevertheless, what i want from TC most is its 22.5% additional target info gathering speed. Critting cored parts with "shotguns" is fun.

Jay Leon Hart, on 19 May 2017 - 02:53 AM, said:

Then, I moved a lot of that armour from your right arm to your legs - you need your legs a lot more that you need that arm and extra ton of ammo!

During all my career of a KDK-3 player, i've been legged like... 2-3 times or so. Nobody seems to go for legs if you still have those terrifying "dakka batteries" of a side torsoes alive. Plus my weapon mounts are ridiculously high, and thus half of the time i'll be hill-poking whenever possible. Meanwhile, my build has 160 ammo. That's basically only 40 volleys of my quad LBx. I'd say it's already not nearly enough, so removing a ton of ammo... naaah.

[Jay Leon Hart]

N0D, on 19 May 2017 - 03:43 AM, said:

Are you sure about that? Nevertheless, what i want from TC most is its 22.5% additional target info gathering speed. Critting cored parts with "shotguns" is fun.

During all my career of a KDK-3 player, i've been legged like... 2-3 times or so. Nobody seems to go for legs if you still have those terrifying "dakka batteries" of a side torsoes alive. Plus my weapon mounts are ridiculously high, and thus half of the time i'll be hill-poking whenever possible. Meanwhile, my build has 160 ammo. That's basically only 40 volleys of my quad LBx. I'd say it's already not nearly enough, so removing a ton of ammo... naaah.

Fair enough. I didn't actually remove any ammo.

Then how about...
Dropping to an XL 395?
You don't really lose much - 0.8 KPH and an extra HS slot you weren't using - but gain 2 tons.
Then you can add another ton of ammo and either a BAP for even faster targeting, or yet another ton of ammo.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Jay Leon Hart, on 19 May 2017 - 02:53 AM, said:

A re-jig of your build
LBX do not benefit from the velocity or crit chance increases provided by a Targeting Computer, so I dropped it. Then, I moved a lot of that armour from your right arm to your legs - you need your legs a lot more that you need that arm and extra ton of ammo!

Thank you for mentioning this -- I didn't realize his even after reading the TC specs once and you are right. The specs are found in this ancient post: http://mwomercs.com/...ommand-console/

The definition of "projectile weapons" for a TC is very different from the hardpoint definition of "ballistic" weapons. It's also not entirely descriptive since LBX is definitely a simulation of a projectile weapon in the normal English-language sense and PPC is not obviously one (it's an energy "projectile" which is not the normal sense of the term). I think anyone would be surprised by the real definition and the weapon of "projectile" for a TC and PGI should make it clear in the TC tooltip. I've been wasting a large TC on two CLBX20s when I could have a missile launcher. So thanks!

[N0D]

Jay, if we're talking about additionally buying one of those quite expensive xl engines, Then i believe this KDK-3 with 380 engine does it better, because there's a 1.5 ton leap in mass after 380 power. Also, standard armor frees some slots which you can fill with more ammo and TC+CAP.
One thing bothers me though. Torso twist speed is reliant on engine power. Skill build capitalizes on the best speed possible, so... yeah.

[Jay Leon Hart]

As a note, the tooltip for TCs does mention is doesn't affect LBX class ACs.


Also, you're welcome!

[Jay Leon Hart]

N0D, on 19 May 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

Jay, if we're talking about additionally buying one of those quite expensive xl engines, Then i believe this KDK-3 with 380 engine does it better, because there's a 1.5 ton leap in mass after 380 power. Also, standard armor frees some slots which you can fill with more ammo and TC+CAP.
One thing bothers me though. Torso twist speed is reliant on engine power. Skill build capitalizes on the best speed possible, so... yeah.

Actually, due to engine decoupling, engine rating has (minimal or zero, I forget which) impact on torso twist any more.
But yeah, only my Spirit Bear runs an XL400 and even that may change when I get around to looking at it again. My KDKs run engines ranging from 350 to 375.

[justcallme A S H]

UAC jam node is a total waste.

-5% jam? please. Don't waste skill points on it, or chasing it.

Plus 4x UAC10/6T ammo and XL400, that is just bad.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 19 May 2017 - 06:44 AM.

[N0D]

justcallme A S H, on 19 May 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

UAC jam node is a total waste. -5% jam?

"17% of all shots fired will jam" and "12% of all shots fired will jam" is a HUGE difference for two meager nodes. Way more impacting on gameplay then two nodes of 0.6% cooldown each, for example. Plus there are some good nodes (collectively) on the way there.

justcallme A S H, on 19 May 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

4x UAC10/6T ammo and XL400, that is just bad.

Well, would you be so kind as to recommend something better for dakka KDK-3 then?

[Jay Leon Hart]

N0D, on 19 May 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

"17% of all shots fired will jam" and "12% of all shots fired will jam" is a HUGE difference for two meager nodes. Way more impacting on gameplay then two nodes of 0.6% cooldown each, for example.

Last I read, it is a multiplicative bonus, not an additive one.
So it's not 17% > 12%
But instead 17% > (17*0.95) = 16.15%

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Jay Leon Hart, on 19 May 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

Last I read, it is a multiplicative bonus, not an additive one.
So it's not 17% > 12%
But instead 17% > (17*0.95) = 16.15%

Correct.

[justcallme A S H]

N0D, on 19 May 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

"17% of all shots fired will jam" and "12% of all shots fired will jam" is a HUGE difference for two meager nodes. Way more impacting on gameplay then two nodes of 0.6% cooldown each, for example. Plus there are some good nodes (collectively) on the way there.

Well, would you be so kind as to recommend something better for dakka KDK-3 then?

I'm telling you, it's not. Go and training ground it, you'll find it's as the others have stated. It's calculated off the base number. Not a instant subtraction.

Once you jam a UAC, especially a UAC10 with the duration, you're stuffed. Ignore the jam chance node and chase these:

Cooldown / Range / Velocity - in that order.

THIS is how you dakka KDK3. It's not my exact build, but you can change around as needed/you see fit. It's capable of well over 1500dmg so feel free to fire freely outside your optimal range.

Your build is far too hot, hence go back to UAC5. The "classic" UAC10 x 4 KDK3 died when the UAC10 heat was fixed (given it was bugged circa Aug/Sept last year)

Edited by justcallme A S H, 19 May 2017 - 04:25 PM.