655 replies to this topic

[Ghost73]

Tweaks, on 17 December 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:

I think we can all agree that there's a difference between instant and week(s)-long repairs. Repairing a single gun out (or replacing it with a new one), should probably take a few minutes at least, and major overhauls should probably take a few hours.

I don't know how it could be done without penalizing us too much and still fit within the 1:1 timeline. I just don't want class F refits to be able to be done instantly. Doesn't mean it has to take a week though (even if it actually does in the rulebook and canon). It has to be somewhere in between.

Making people wait to play is just bad for any action-based game. Actually, for any game in general. Repairing and refitting should NOT take any time at all. You're telling me that after refitting your new mech so that it plays the way you want, you are ok with waiting a couple hours? Going by your line of thinking, we should also wait weeks before starting a match because of all the time required for your mech to transit between planets. Forcing people to wait doesn't add anything to the game, gameplay or balance-wise.

Also, when they said 1:1 timeline, they meant important events related to Battletech canon (as you can see in the ISN news feed), not how fast your mech is repaired.

Edited by Ghost73, 17 December 2011 - 06:55 PM.

[GreenHell]

If were going to have to wait for months to get our mechs refitted in the game...
Can I request to have one refitted now? lol

Dear PGI
Please start the refit on my future DVS-2 Devastator for me.
The model I would like is the DVS-X10 Muse Earth.
I will gladly pay once the game is actually released.
lol

KTHNXBAI

[Skwisgaar Skwigelf]

As far as customization vs repair.

It should take lots of money and some time to customize a mech. In the Inner Sphere in 3050 and before (and even most mechs after) changing to a different weapon system was a big deal. If you want to completely change your mechs loadout then yes it should cost a lot of cbills and quite a bit of time to make the changes.

Now, once you've done those changes, repair to that particular mech should not take any longer than a stock mech. As long as you've got the parts the hard work is done. If say it takes a day to customize a mech but only an hour to repair a stock mech, then if you have the customizations already done and have the spare parts it shouldn't take any longer to repair your customized mech.

And while I know that the lore says that customization would take weeks or months I agree that for gameplay purposes that just isn't feasible. I do think a weapons loadout change should probably take a real-time day for weapons only or two for internal parts (endo steel, XL engine) but once that work is done the repairs shouldn't take any longer than repair for a stock variant, maybe a real-time hour or two depending or the severity of the damage.

[John Frye]

Holmes, on 17 December 2011 - 04:07 PM, said:

They might as well just get new jobs then, because you just described MW:LL, an already high quality project that I uninstalled promptly because it didn't have a MechLab.

They need to deliver a complete MechWarrior game. Not to my expectations, not to yours, not even to theirs (like they said, it's for a community), not a half assed "get it out quick initially" project that could be done by a mod team. The people in charge of this game are incredibly talented and well versed in BT, I don't want to see a cheap free mod. My hopes are set high for this.

Yes Holmes, you have been EXTREMELY vocal on that point. All I can say is that the TT version is the ORIGINAL cannon, so I personally consider the mechlab to be a cheap mod. At this point, you probably don't need to reiterate that it's absence will cause you to not play, since you have made that statement in a number of threads, so most of us are probably well aware of it.

[Karn Evil]

Personally, I don't see what the big deal is with customization. A bog-standard Shadow Cat is more fun, at least to me, than half of the custom variants I've seen in various games, and usually does better in a fight. If anything, customization should be there for when you don't have the equipment to restore a busted-up mech to what it's supposed to be, so you duct-tape together a monster that runs on the belief of its pilot.
...
Of course, I also think that any customization that does happen should be visible on the mech, but we all know how likely that is.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

[open]The terminology is irrelevant as many on this forum have begun calling complete customization that. Besides you know what is meant and you are nitpicking.[close]
Savashri. Stravag. Surat.
[open]an atlas is carrying something silly like 4x Gauss 2x ERPPCs (while not possible in 3048 im just makign an example here) thats enough to alpha virtually anything[close]
And *be* alpha'd by virtually anything.
Assuming a meagre 1 ton of ammo per Gauss, we'd be looking at 1/2MP Atlas with at the most 5 tons of armour. How much is 5 tons of armour? About as much as that of a 25-tonner.
I'd play against that Atlas with... hm... a Jenner JR7-F.
Or heck, even a Locust LCT-1Vb (the SLDF Royals variant).
[open]The problem becomes how do you allow maximum customization without allowing such shenanigans[close]
By grabbing a canon variant and kicking their arses with it.
Dense urban environment? I'd pick a PNT-9R Panther or a JR7-F Jenner to combat it.
Countryside? Give me the JR7-F Jenner or the LCT-1Vb (or LCT-1E) Locust.
[open]The balancing factor being cost and rarity of equipment, off set by maintenance and repair costs.[close]
I'd also add time and facilities available.
A Jenner with an XL engine and Endo-Steel would be lovely.
Ditto for a Locust.
[open]I don't think any of the Mech factories in the BattleTech universe produce unarmed Mechs and sell them that way... so the idea of scratchbuilding is, as far as I know, non-canon and most likely will not part of MWO.[close]
Except that's basically what they do with OmniMechs.
[open]But I also think that building mechs like the Mist Lynx (Koshi) A and forcing someone to use it in combat is an insult to their intelligence.[close]
At least that's an OmniMech, try the Ostscout OTT-7K with only a TAG as "weapon".
[open]just as Pinto's should never be on the road:
http://www.time.com/...1657866,00.html
so why not get rid of it?[close]
Fun fact: they do the same maths when designing aircraft. You know, Boeing and the like.
[open]Edit: Also, if all mechs become easily customizable, what then becomes the point of Omnimechs? I think it would be silly to make an entire core class of mech redundant because someone wants to have their instant Derp mech.[close]
Time involved in applying the changes?
OmniMechs can do partial Class-D refits in only a fraction of the time it'd take on a non-Omni.
[open]read the Bandersnatch variant section in TR 3055. It takes a well equipped custom build shop 10+ months to build one because it isn't mass produced and mass production is just that, mass production, not customization.[close]
You got that book? Good, now go to the Solaris VII section and read those entries.
VEST and the like do custom 'mechs like those in only a few months.
[open]Just limit the number of identical weapons one any one mech to a number like 2 or 4, so you can't make a home brewed Komodo, or Mad Dog A, or Fire Moth Prime/A/H etc... so any custom mechs can only have say 2 Gauss Rifles (and not 3+) max, and 4 Med Lasers Max, or 4 MPL's max. This way if you want a munchy mech or vee you have to use a canon mech like a Nova Prime/S/H,Thunderhawk, Grasshopper , Jenner, Javelin[close]
Sure, can you point me to a canon 'Mech mounting six MRM-10 launchers?
Simply having four ERPPCs doesn't automatically make you a munchmech.
Being able to have them and use them without any real penalty, however, is.
But, ofcourse, you don't need a custom 'mech to do that.
[open]It does not make for a better game just because you got to pick 5 ER PPC's instead of what the variant's chose for you.[close]
I gonna lol at whoever alpha-strikes with those, and then blast their rear torso away while xe cools down.

Sodding retarded BBCode thingy can't even recognise that I got the same amount of opening quite tags as closing quote tags.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 18 December 2011 - 05:53 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 18 December 2011 - 05:50 AM, said:

[open]The terminology is irrelevant as many on this forum have begun calling complete customization that. Besides you know what is meant and you are nitpicking.[close]
Savashri. Stravag. Surat.
[open]an atlas is carrying something silly like 4x Gauss 2x ERPPCs (while not possible in 3048 im just makign an example here) thats enough to alpha virtually anything[close]
And *be* alpha'd by virtually anything.
Assuming a meagre 1 ton of ammo per Gauss, we'd be looking at 1/2MP Atlas with at the most 5 tons of armour. How much is 5 tons of armour? About as much as that of a 25-tonner.
I'd play against that Atlas with... hm... a Jenner JR7-F.
Or heck, even a Locust LCT-1Vb (the SLDF Royals variant).
[open]The problem becomes how do you allow maximum customization without allowing such shenanigans[close]
By grabbing a canon variant and kicking their arses with it.
Dense urban environment? I'd pick a PNT-9R Panther or a JR7-F Jenner to combat it.
Countryside? Give me the JR7-F Jenner or the LCT-1Vb (or LCT-1E) Locust.
[open]The balancing factor being cost and rarity of equipment, off set by maintenance and repair costs.[close]
I'd also add time and facilities available.
A Jenner with an XL engine and Endo-Steel would be lovely.
Ditto for a Locust.
[open]I don't think any of the Mech factories in the BattleTech universe produce unarmed Mechs and sell them that way... so the idea of scratchbuilding is, as far as I know, non-canon and most likely will not part of MWO.[close]
Except that's basically what they do with OmniMechs.
[open]But I also think that building mechs like the Mist Lynx (Koshi) A and forcing someone to use it in combat is an insult to their intelligence.[close]
At least that's an OmniMech, try the Ostscout OTT-7K with only a TAG as "weapon".
[open]just as Pinto's should never be on the road:
http://www.time.com/...1657866,00.html
so why not get rid of it?[close]
Fun fact: they do the same maths when designing aircraft. You know, Boeing and the like.
[open]Edit: Also, if all mechs become easily customizable, what then becomes the point of Omnimechs? I think it would be silly to make an entire core class of mech redundant because someone wants to have their instant Derp mech.[close]
Time involved in applying the changes?
OmniMechs can do partial Class-D refits in only a fraction of the time it'd take on a non-Omni.
[open]read the Bandersnatch variant section in TR 3055. It takes a well equipped custom build shop 10+ months to build one because it isn't mass produced and mass production is just that, mass production, not customization.[close]
You got that book? Good, now go to the Solaris VII section and read those entries.
VEST and the like do custom 'mechs like those in only a few months.
[open]Just limit the number of identical weapons one any one mech to a number like 2 or 4, so you can't make a home brewed Komodo, or Mad Dog A, or Fire Moth Prime/A/H etc... so any custom mechs can only have say 2 Gauss Rifles (and not 3+) max, and 4 Med Lasers Max, or 4 MPL's max. This way if you want a munchy mech or vee you have to use a canon mech like a Nova Prime/S/H,Thunderhawk, Grasshopper , Jenner, Javelin[close]
Sure, can you point me to a canon 'Mech mounting six MRM-10 launchers?
Simply having four ERPPCs doesn't automatically make you a munchmech.
Being able to have them and use them without any real penalty, however, is.
But, ofcourse, you don't need a custom 'mech to do that.
[open]It does not make for a better game just because you got to pick 5 ER PPC's instead of what the variant's chose for you.[close]
I gonna lol at whoever alpha-strikes with those, and then blast their rear torso away while xe cools down.

Sodding retarded BBCode thingy can't even recognise that I got the same amount of opening quite tags as closing quote tags.

For the quote tags: it's not "open" and "close", it's "quote" and "/quote".

[Tweaks]

Ghost73, on 17 December 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

Making people wait to play is just bad for any action-based game. Actually, for any game in general. Repairing and refitting should NOT take any time at all. You're telling me that after refitting your new mech so that it plays the way you want, you are ok with waiting a couple hours? Going by your line of thinking, we should also wait weeks before starting a match because of all the time required for your mech to transit between planets. Forcing people to wait doesn't add anything to the game, gameplay or balance-wise.

Also, when they said 1:1 timeline, they meant important events related to Battletech canon (as you can see in the ISN news feed), not how fast your mech is repaired.

There has to be at last some delay. It can't be instant or it doesn't make sense. Also, MWO is not going to be just another instant-action game, that's the thing.

As for the 1:1 timeline, they did mean that if it's December 18th, 2011 in real life, then it's December 18th, 3048 in MWO. So, if one day is one day, there's a problem if you're allowing instant refits that should take weeks per canon. I didn't say I want them to take weeks, but it should be more than a few minutes for sure!

[John Frye]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 18 December 2011 - 05:50 AM, said:

-snipped for readability-

[open]Edit: Also, if all mechs become easily customizable, what then becomes the point of Omnimechs? I think it would be silly to make an entire core class of mech redundant because someone wants to have their instant Derp mech.[close]
Time involved in applying the changes?
OmniMechs can do partial Class-D refits in only a fraction of the time it'd take on a non-Omni.
[open]read the Bandersnatch variant section in TR 3055. It takes a well equipped custom build shop 10+ months to build one because it isn't mass produced and mass production is just that, mass production, not customization.[close]
You got that book? Good, now go to the Solaris VII section and read those entries.
VEST and the like do custom 'mechs like those in only a few months.

-further snipped for readability-

With that wall of text, I am not entirely sure I was able to follow what you were saying, but I am going to take it as a counter point to my original statement. Unfortunately, what I read seems to reinforce what I said earlier rather than disputing it. The key supporting elements are now bolded.


Edit: Sorry, I have the original 3055, it doesn't include the tacked in Solaris sections that were added later.

Edited by John Frye, 18 December 2011 - 08:06 AM.

[x TAZ x]

Part of the fun of CBT is modifying stock designs and variants. By starting in 3049, the Clan invasion will bring Omnimechs to the forefront. Being able to buy a stock variant and then "tweaking it" on the first or subsequent repair after battle would be fair.

Being able to modify a WHM-6D with level 2 tech will get expensive quick, but removing the 2-ea small lasers for a medium laser is doable and does not create the "frankenmech" myth.

[KingCobra]

Ive posted what i thought on the Mechlab without one i dont think i would play MWO very long and it needs to be complex enough to satisfy my inner kid on building things.As to MW:LL i played crysis before i installed the mod so i knew what the game play was like in the stock game.Even though they did a wonderful job on the mechs and other stuff the game and mechs just felt akward not like a battletech game should be plus the contols were horrid and no mechlab.So i just uninstalled it and played crysis which was much funner than the MW:LL mod.I would not buy the new crysis warhead at $10,00 USD to just try it out again.


I can only hope and pray MWO is nothing like MW:LL or i will promptly uninstall it.

Edited by KingCobra, 18 December 2011 - 09:12 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Tweaks, on 18 December 2011 - 07:26 AM, said:

There has to be at last some delay. It can't be instant or it doesn't make sense. Also, MWO is not going to be just another instant-action game, that's the thing.

As for the 1:1 timeline, they did mean that if it's December 18th, 2011 in real life, then it's December 18th, 3048 in MWO. So, if one day is one day, there's a problem if you're allowing instant refits that should take weeks per canon. I didn't say I want them to take weeks, but it should be more than a few minutes for sure!

FWIW, there is the "Master Repair Table" in the CBT Master Rules (pg. 91).

As listed there (assuming a proper facility, skilled technicians, and the 'Mech being in a condition where it can be worked on):
- replacement of a blown-off limb takes approximately 180 minutes (3 hours) each
- replacement of a blown-off head takes approximately 200 minutes (~3.3 hours)
- replacement of a destroyed location (I assume this refers to LT and RT) takes approximately 240 minutes (4 hours) each
- repair time for the internal structure in a location depends on the level of damage

• up to 25% damage: approximately 90 minutes (1.5 hours) per location
  
• up to 50% damage: approximately 135 minutes (2.25 hours) per location
  
• up to 75% damage: approximately 180 minutes (3 hours) per location
  
• over 75% damage: approximately 270 minutes (4.5 hours) per location

- repair of a fusion engine that's taken 3+ critical hits takes approximately 300 minutes (5 hours)
- replacement of a fusion engine takes approximately 360 minutes (6 hours)
- repair of a gyro takes between 120 and 240 minutes (2-4 hours)
- replacement of a gyro takes approximately 200 minutes (~3.3 hours)
- replacement of armor takes approximately 15 minutes "per box" (I assume 1 "box" = 1 armor point)
- repair of a heat sink takes approximately 120 minutes (2 hours) each
- replacement of a heat sink takes approximately 90 minutes (1.5 hours) each
- repair of a jump jet takes approximately 90 minutes (1.5 hours) each
- replacement of a jump jet takes approximately 60 minutes (1 hour) each
- replacement of a weapon or other piece of equipment (ECM, BAP, AMS, etc) takes approximately 120 minutes (2 hours) per item
- repair of a weapon or other piece of equipment depends on the level of damage

• 1 critical hit: approximately 100 minutes (~1.6 hours)
  
• 2 critical hits: approximately 150 minutes (2.5 hours)
  
• 3 critical hits: approximately 200 minutes (~3.3 hours)
  
• 4+ critical hits: approximately 250 minutes (~4.16 hours)

- repair of actuators takes approximately 120 minutes (2 hours) per item
- replacement of actuators takes approximately 90 minutes (1.5 hours) per item

Additionally, OmniMechs (both Clan and IS) and the Omni-tech components they use are rarer, much more expensive (1.25x normal price), and much more difficult to repair (double repair time) than the equivalent non-Omni 'Mechs and components.

The same section also includes provisions for rush jobs (depending on the skill of the technician, the repair may take 1/2, 1/4, or even 1/8 of the listed time at the cost of an increased likelihood of an incorrect installation or faulty repair) and partial repairs (the equipment will work, but will also be subject to some fault - increased heat generation, increased difficulty in follow-up repairs, and so on).

Based on the above, I could see an all-but-destroyed BattleMech (both arms and both legs gone, both LT and RT destroyed, the remaining CT armor in tatters, with 4 crit-hits to the engine and 2 crit-hits to the gyro) taking, say, 2-4 days of continuous work (assuming one has ready access to all of the necessary replacement parts and a team of reasonably-competent technicians), while a lightly damaged 'Mech (missing some armor, some minor damage to the internal structure, maybe one or two weapons/systems damaged or destroyed) could be repaired inside of a single day (or even inside of an hour, if one is willing and able to pay for the services of a team of elite technicians).

I think it would be interesting to see this system implemented for MWO - it provides the the reasonable delay for being able to restore a damaged or salvaged 'Mech to operational status (as a function of the type and degree of damage and how much one is willing to pay, with more skilled technicians being faster but more expensive workers) while also providing something of a work-around if time is really an issue (though, employment of the work-around is balanced by the fact that it is not without additional risk or cost).

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 18 December 2011 - 11:02 AM.

[ShotsofJack]

i have played some mechwarrior type of games including some of the mechwarrior titles itself, but from what it sounds like to me from this is that being able to build a mech from parts or buy a complete " base" model and add to it. i dont know if any of you have heard of or played a game that was for the 360 called chromehounds. it was a mech type game and it had different chassis you could deploy on as well as cockpits engines, generators, weapons and dozens of add-ons like armor or radiators to cool down your mech. it had a system in place that it only allowed for so much weight to be applied on the chassis so you wouldnt have these frankenmechs but as any game people find a way to cheat. i would like to see a game wit some of those systems applied to a game. but here is to wishing

[ShotsofJack]

and also it had a garage to where you could spend hours enjoying customizing your build and tweaking your mech to get the best possible set up from your mech. loved it!! so yes this game does need a "garage" to where you can build/tweak the mechs.

[Soltenius Drake]

Gorith, on 16 December 2011 - 11:14 PM, said:

Mechlab should be VERY limited (if atall) to avoid frankenmech play style of the previous games

I have a middle ground for this, I vote Yea to the scratch build however only after artist and developer approval to ensure the visual aesthetic, quality and balance of the Mech.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Strum Wealh, on 18 December 2011 - 06:48 AM, said:

For the quote tags: it's not "open" and "close", it's "quote" and "/quote".

Tried it with quote and /quote about a dozen times, each time re-typing it and double-checking the count on both.
It. Did. Not. Work.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 18 December 2011 - 12:26 PM.

[Ghost73]

Tweaks, on 18 December 2011 - 07:26 AM, said:

There has to be at last some delay. It can't be instant or it doesn't make sense. Also, MWO is not going to be just another instant-action game, that's the thing.

As for the 1:1 timeline, they did mean that if it's December 18th, 2011 in real life, then it's December 18th, 3048 in MWO. So, if one day is one day, there's a problem if you're allowing instant refits that should take weeks per canon. I didn't say I want them to take weeks, but it should be more than a few minutes for sure!

Strum Wealh, on 18 December 2011 - 09:12 AM, said:

I think it would be interesting to see this system implemented for MWO - it provides the the reasonable delay for being able to restore a damaged or salvaged 'Mech to operational status (as a function of the type and degree of damage and how much one is willing to pay, with more skilled technicians being faster but more expensive workers) while also providing something of a work-around if time is really an issue (though, employment of the work-around is balanced by the fact that it is not without additional risk or cost).

Your thoughts?

You actually want to wait hours in between rounds to repair your mech?

An example why this is bad: A new player only has one mech, and it comes with a very high likelihood that it WILL be destroyed their first match. You want to force this player, who has no other available mechs or enough money to buy one, to wait just to play one more round? I am sure that this player will stop playing this game immediately, as I know I would.

I think we can all agree that the most fun we will have playing this game is when we are in the cockpit of our own mech, and you want to introduce a mechanic that restricts that? That is a little ridiculous considering the point of playing a game is to have fun. The playerbase would just drop off if this was included, and I highly doubt it will be included for the very same reasons I listed above.

Also, it doesn't make sense to include only one aspect of the canon that affects gameplay, so if you want time delay repairs then you should also include: one mech per pilot, time delay for transit, permanent death, and you can't choose where or when you want to fight. That sound fun to you?

It's great to be enthusiastic, but don't let it become zealotry. A game is just a game, not a full-blown alternate reality, and if you are expecting something like that, just be prepared for a let down.

[pcunite]

Ghost73, on 18 December 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

You actually want to wait hours in between rounds to repair your mech?

Perhaps as you gain experience, the game starts to treat you as a pro? I don't know ... just thinking out loud.

[John Frye]

Ghost73, on 18 December 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

You actually want to wait hours in between rounds to repair your mech?

Please read the entire thread (this one is still short), or the matching one titled "MechLab is Half the battle" (or some such) before making comments like this one, since it completely misses the core discussion.

Ghost73, on 18 December 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

It's great to be enthusiastic, but don't let it become zealotry. A game is just a game, not a full-blown alternate reality, and if you are expecting something like that, just be prepared for a let down.

Calling people with differing opinions "zealots" is tacky at best. Also before deciding that we are unthinking reactionaries, please see my first point above. No one is try to say that new players should be out of luck if their starter mech is damaged and then have to wait long periods to have it repaired. The core discussion is if there should be limits on MODIFYING (let me bold this one so you don't miss it again) mechs after a player owns them.

Edited by John Frye, 18 December 2011 - 03:35 PM.

[Mechteric]

I'm all about limited customization, it shouldn't be possible to have a Centurion with 12 mediums lasers or an Atlas with 4 AC20's. Why? Because otherwise it makes the weapons the star of the game instead of the mech.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 18 December 2011 - 03:17 PM.