655 replies to this topic

[Ghost73]

John Frye, on 18 December 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

Please read the entire thread (this one is still short), or the matching one titled "MechLab is Half the battle" (or some such) before making comments like this one, since it completely misses the core discussion.

I suggest you read what we were discussing before interjecting. If you actually had read the entire thread, you would have noticed that someone suggested implementing waiting for repairs, which i replied was a bad idea, and outlined why I thought so. That is what I was discussing, but I also feel that waiting for modifications holds the same problems.

John Frye, on 18 December 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

Calling people with differing opinions "zealots" is tacky at best. Also before deciding that we are unthinking reactionaries, please see my first point above. No one is try to say that new players should be out of luck if their starter mech is damaged and then have to wait long periods to have it repaired. The core discussion is if there should be limits on MODIFYING (let me bold this one so you don't miss it again) mechs after a player owns them.

If you actually understood what I posted, I very obviously did NOT call them zealots, so please do not twist my words. It was not at all an insult, it was a friendly warning to not be overly enthusiastic and to keep in mind that this a game meant to be played by all and for everyone to have fun.

Quite hypocritical of you to start calling me tacky after accusing me of verbally attacking people. Please, do not attack me because you cannot understand what I wrote, and most importantly, do not assume what my thoughts and opinions are before I have a chance to voice them.

[John Frye]

Ghost73, on 18 December 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

I suggest you read what we were discussing before interjecting...

-snip-

If you actually understood what I posted...

-snip-

...because you cannot understand what I wrote...

I am going to limit this to my only response, but let's go back and highlight what I believe are the oversights I was commenting on. The post that highlighted repair times was Sturm's post on maintenance timing (please find a small excerpt below to confirm the post).

Strum Wealh, on 18 December 2011 - 09:12 AM, said:

FWIW, there is the "Master Repair Table" in the CBT Master Rules (pg. 91).

As listed there (assuming a proper facility, skilled technicians, and the 'Mech being in a condition where it can be worked on):
...
-snip-

However, if you read the quote Strum included as the introduction of his posting (please see copy of the original from Tweaks below), you will note that the discussion is around "allowing instant refits" with the language highlighted below for your elucidation.

Tweaks, on 18 December 2011 - 07:26 AM, said:

There has to be at last some delay. It can't be instant or it doesn't make sense. Also, MWO is not going to be just another instant-action game, that's the thing.

As for the 1:1 timeline, they did mean that if it's December 18th, 2011 in real life, then it's December 18th, 3048 in MWO. So, if one day is one day, there's a problem if you're allowing instant refits that should take weeks per canon. I didn't say I want them to take weeks, but it should be more than a few minutes for sure!

Even you use the term "refit' in the post that Tweaks was originally referring to.

Ghost73, on 17 December 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

-snip-
You're telling me that after refitting your new mech so that it plays the way you want, you are ok with waiting a couple hours?
-snip-

In regards to the high horse you have climbed onto, I will let others judge the height of the corresponding fall.

Edited by John Frye, 18 December 2011 - 06:58 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

No vote, I've played with both systems and with systems that allowed NO customization at all and had a blast regardless. BTech TT, we started with no customization, we were in a House unit and none of us had family Mechs, so..what ya get is what ya get. GEnie MPBT, no customization at all. TT, we eventually earned enough rank and c-bills to start trying to customize our Mechs a bit..just a little bit. MW2 and 3, what you can pack on an empty skeleton is limited by the rules of BTech, tonnage/slots/location. All were fun and I loved em all.

What I do NOT want to see is bs like MW4's system or MA's system.

Otherwise..starting with a stock config and having to earn the ability AND c-bills to customize it..that's great, it's actually a lot of fun AND really teaches you how to use a Mech as they were originally designed to be used. Especially useful for people learning the 'roles' of Recon, Interdiction, Assault, Defense, Command as the stock Mechs all tend to fall into those catagories.

[wolf74]

Until We know more about the combat system, which will tell if a Mechlab is a good Idea or not. But I personally would like to see a Mech Lab Based in TT rules, Battlemech could have a MW4 Overlay helping limit their changes, But I would be VERY VERY Strong on locking the Omni-Mech Lock Gear down AKA the Puma/Adder Will always have that Flamer installed. (For our Non-TT player Omni-Mech Engine/ Armor / and a lot of other gear is ALLWAYS the same on a Unit but had “POD” space that could be use for Weapons/Electronics/Ammo/ Heat Sink to a Omni-Mech)

Some Food for Thought
Now the Mech-Lab we could Change some of the terms to make them better to understand. "Critical slot" can be change to "Metric Volume" which is basically what it is. Now With these we can go into Weapon Grades A-F for quality with “C” being the CBT level gear. D,E,F grade gear has lower CBT stat [AKA Heavier, Bigger, Hotter, Lower Damage, Longer Recharge times) but Cheaper on the C-Bill wallet.

Than A,B Gear are better than CBT state (“A” Grade Comstar, “B” Grade House Elite Guard) The D-F is what most NPC would have for Sell, C be a small part of it under 10% I would say (Most of C,B,A, gear is used up by the Main Houses Army’s)

IF there is a Delay time from molding a mech, this could be used on a crafting side of thing (Yes I would love to see crafting in the game). AKA Players who want to craft could come in a lot of skill trees. See my post here 9^th down 1^st page (http://mwomercs.com/...ior-online-mmo/) You could have player have Repair & Mod Skills which can shorten the time it takes to do a job. They could make so when your off –line you can put your character in a “Job” Location which speed that area up for Repair and Mod job in the queued and you character gets a small Cut of the work done. This way your character help other player by fixing/Modding their mechs faster and earn you some side cash at the same time to pay for you Lower combat skill you may had to give up for the crafting. Personally I think it should take about 3 or 4 Player working together to be able to make a Mech.
Yes it Not TOTAL Canon but We also looking a game which will have more Mech destroyed in the 1^st few weeks than the 2^nd Succession War.

It just a Thought.

Edited by wolf74, 18 December 2011 - 09:00 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Wolf, no Clan tech, no Clan Mechs, 3048, Inner Sphere tech and Mechs, so Omni's aren't an option. And please, PLEASE, nothing from MW4 when customization is done. And it will be done, we've been told that already by PGI. And there's no reason to change the terminology used, anyone playing the game for more then a few hours will become comfortable with it, just as they do every other game out that uses it's own terminology. That's an LCD thing, turning those 'big words' into simplistic ones for the dumb folks who just can't grasp such a complicated thing as 'critical slot'. It's insulting and demeaning to everyone involved.

Crafting..not anytime soon..MWO won't be your standard MMO game, think Planetside not WoW, persistant world with our actions having an influence on the state of the IS, how much of an influence PGI hasn't made clear.

[wolf74]

Played both Plantside and WOW, Planet Side got 3months out of me WOW 1.5years.
Yes Planetside had a Leveling system Nice, but there was one thing to do in the game just one FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT sorry two thing the 2nd Die.
One of the Reason WOW & Everquest took off like they did is because they has other options than just fighting or Questing-Missions.
I don't just think in the "Now" just because the Clan are not at Launch don’t not mean there not coming down the road. We have to think of what is to come not just what’s in front of us. Yes I Know Crafting not going to be a Launch or Tank or anything else but Mechs (which will get boring really fast in my book). But one of the reasons for these forums is for us to discuss possible options that may or most likly may not make it in to the game some time down the road.

For this reason when I was mapping out weapons I.D. For AT1 I have over 300 yes Battletech has over 300 types of Weapons, Ammo, & Gear (and that was with ID sharing on Common type too to lower the number), plus another 370 Mech core ID. I know most will never get used but I didn’t Close the door on it just because we didn’t need them right then. It for that reason I was saying there some option to Expand on the basic Core of CBT Keep the core flavor but letting in option in that we could not do by Keeping 12slot critical system. They have to keep a Small door Open for the future AKA (Compact Heat Sink 3056 Uses ½ a Critical slot) In the Core of the Mech-Making in CBT they tried to keep the math to a Basic. Now that the Computer is doing the Math we can have more options & not be limit to the Nearest ¼ton or ½ton.

Again these are just my thought. Sorry you don't like them Kristov Kerensky but there still here. Again to Quote myself "Until We know more about the combat system, which will tell if a Mechlab is a good Idea or not." Until then We will Both just have to wait and see until that time. But let us try respect each other’s thought on these and try to work for a better game.

Edited by wolf74, 19 December 2011 - 12:09 AM.

[Black Dragon EnDrakus]

ok, I'm gonna weigh in here.I don't know how they'll deal with time constraints for anything ((travel, repair, building stuff, etc.)) but i'm sure they'll try to come to a reasonable solution. as for custom job mechs. stock varients likely will be the norm at least at start. the most realistic solution for customs jobs will probably be that the more extensive the customization, the more hidiously expensive it will become. Mech warrior does have rules in place concerning tonnage and space, so i expect those will be enforced. 'four gauss cannons and 2 ERPPCs' on an atlas is not unreasonable, as the space and tonnage are there, but the *cost* will likely be astronomical. I also believe that they will likely implement availability/condition of parts as a factor, since many MW stories revolve around what tech is available. Weather custom mechs will be under or over powered shouldn't be a prime focus, as many mechs of similar class and even some canon varients of the same mech are acknowledged as being of greatly differing effectivness. one concern i have is how custom jobs will be shown in game. in mech warrior 2 and 3, i could put any weapon i wanted in any spot, as long as there was enough space, but if i was modifying a timber wolf ((for example only)) and i dropped the LRMs in favor of a pair of large pulse lasers, apperently i got the 'big square box' configuration. i'd like to see at least some visual change in my mech's appearence based on my weapons, becuase 'missle launcher shaped lasers' ruin belivability and immersion for me. doubt it'll happen though, and if so, the MW4 system is actually a better solution. ((it looks like a missle launcher, so it can only fire missles))

[Ghost73]

If you have to quote me, I suggest you at least use the entire sentence, if not the whole paragraph, so that my words are not taken out of context, as they so blatantly are.

John Frye, on 18 December 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

I am going to limit this to my only response,

I can only hope. (Sorry, I couldn't resist)

John Frye, on 18 December 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

but let's go back and highlight what I believe are the oversights I was commenting on.

Yes, let's.

John Frye, on 18 December 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

The post that highlighted repair times was Sturm's post on maintenance timing (please find a small excerpt below to confirm the post).

Yes, it was called the "Master Repair Table".

John Frye, on 18 December 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

However, if you read the quote Strum included as the introduction of his posting (please see copy of the original from Tweaks below), you will note that the discussion is around "allowing instant refits" with the language highlighted below for your elucidation.

Even you use the term "refit' in the post that Tweaks was originally referring to.

I would first like to say that in your first post quoting me, you rudely accused me of not thoroughly reading previous posts and continued to insult my powers of observation because I had used the term 'repair' instead of 'modify'. I do not know why you felt it necessary to insult someone who you happen to believe has mixed up their terms. I say believe because I knew exactly what I was talking about even if you did not.

Yes, I did use the term refit in my post at the top of page 4, and in my quote of Tweaks on that same post, you will see that Tweaks also used the term repair. We both have used these terms interchangeably and in conjunction with the other. I have no idea when you came into the discussion we were having, but it had been implied that when we write repair/refit/modify we are referring to the mech as being inside the garage, and that it is in a state that renders it unsuitable for battle at the time (whether it is being repaired or refitted). That is the understanding we came to and it seems to me that you did not.

John Frye, on 18 December 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

In regards to the high horse you have climbed onto, I will let others judge the height of the corresponding fall.

I am sorry for making you feel this way, but nowhere have I placed myself as being above others, and you will find yourself alone in accusing me of insulting others (as I have proven that I was not).

If you are still hung up on that, let my explain my use of the word 'zealotry'. Please note I did not call them zealots, but warned them about becoming so. I actually commended them on their enthusiasm for Battlemech canon and I am glad there are people who want to stick to the lore. However, just because something comes from the canon, does not automatically mean it should be implemented in the game. A zealot will believe or pursue something for no other reason than that they feel it should be so. They cannot be reasoned with. Zealotry is an extreme form of enthusiasm. It has no place on forums where people wish to properly discuss ideas and suggestions.
Enthusiasm: good
Zealotry: bad

If you wish to reply to discuss whether or not to enforce a time delay on repairing/refitting mechs with me, then please do so. Otherwise, I am quite tired of having to defend what I write.

Edited by Ghost73, 19 December 2011 - 02:04 AM.

[CeeKay Boques]

I can't vote. It says "Complete" on both. I don't want complete. But if there was ultimate unlimited ominpotent omnipower? Then only on the regular BT stock of mechs. No... "Cube of guns!"

[Ghost73]

Technoviking, on 19 December 2011 - 02:32 AM, said:

I can't vote. It says "Complete" on both. I don't want complete. But if there was ultimate unlimited ominpotent omnipower? Then only on the regular BT stock of mechs. No... "Cube of guns!"

I think they will use something similar to the MW4 customization which restricts weapon placement based on slot type. So no cube of guns

[Eradikitten]

My read:

Yes, access to a cheap easy mechlab would ruin the game. On the other hand, this is the golden age for new mech designs. If someone is wealthy enough, influential enough, and has the time, they should be able to design a mech and get it made. I would allow field modifications by anyone that has the money, and access to a grease monkey.

Full top down Varients would require access to more than just a good mechanic. A good mech lab and very good engineers, and a safe place and time. Time being big.

For an outright new mech, you'd need access to a factory, faction approval sufficient for them not to nuke you for being on the same planet as said mech factory, enough money to cover R&D, plus an order for a MINIMUM of a company of the mechs.

[Brakkyn]

Neither option is satisfactory. Both let you customize, just to different degrees. If this game had a fully customizable MechLab, it would end up like every other game before it--simple-minded min/maxing boatfests.

Lets say I purchase an HBK-4G Hunchback. It has a Small Laser, two Medium Lasers, and an AC20. I should not be allowed to strip everything off and smack on four Large Lasers. I bought an HBK-4G. That's what I ought to be using.

Now, if you had the option in a MechLab to refit the HBK-4G into another canonical variant, such as the HBK-4H, I should be able to do so--as long as I had the facilities to modify it, the time needed to modify it, and the equipment needed to make the changes in my inventory.

For example, the HBK-4H adds two Medium Lasers and reduces the AC20 to an AC10. If I have everything but the AC10 in my inventory, I cannot construct a variant. Maybe I can drop with it, anyway, if I wanted to gimp myself. But I could not replace the AC10 with another weapon of equal weight--I am trying to build an HBK-4H, not some amalgamated hybrid.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Or hope that PGI do a 4H refit kit?

[Tweaks]

Ghost and John, would you mind making your dispute private? I'd like for this thread to stay opened a little longer... Thank you.

[Dlardrageth]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 17 December 2011 - 03:25 AM, said:

Neither then - although a Class F refit should take the appropriate amount of time and cost if available. After all effectively designing a new mech and getting it built as an individual should be appropriately difficult. As the game time is 1:1 I can't see most people who after unlimited \mechlab customisation being able to a) afford it and be prepared for the year or so it would take the factory to design, tool up, produce and ship such a custom mech.

I would love though the fact if people spend hours min-maxing and then, finally... getting a tech report that tells them the Mech they just "redesigned" could be delivered for the prize of X gazillion C-bills... in 10 months time. Won't stop hardcore munchkinism for sure... but make for a hell of a lot of laughter about forum whining posts about, that. I would fully endorse that kind of MechLab!

BT and MW never had full customization at instant request implemented, even the later MW games were just a (bad step) in that direction, but... just a step. Even OmniMechs are not literally fullly customizeable. If that "full customization" is a necessary requirement, I guess you should look for some random Mecha game elsewhere. That demand has nothing to do with BT/MW, sorry to say.

And if people really go emo bigtime on how they cannot fully customize their Mech... up to the pink finger- and toenails... well, unless they pay PGI for the necessary coding and stuff involved on a F2P game... Don't let the door hit your a*** on the way out!

Edited by Dlardrageth, 19 December 2011 - 12:38 PM.

[Phades]

Something you are omitting is that once designed, it would be available to all under your assumption.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Especially when the factory tells them that they only do orders in company sized lots

Edited by Nik Van Rhijn, 19 December 2011 - 11:36 AM.

[Phades]

Shouldn't matter, "hard core" folks are going to be loaded anyhow compared to casual players. It is all relative at that point and most likely a combined effort.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Given most Merc Co's tend to operate on pooled resources probably true. Unfortunately that could lead to the WoT scenario where the campaign map is dominated by a relatively small number of "hard core groups. Something that PGI may want to avoid.

[Phades]

That is more or less why making it overly exclusive entry should be something to be avoided. This is regardless of if follow up individuals entering 2nd get a bargain buy in after the initial R&D is completed.