655 replies to this topic

[Nik Van Rhijn]

FACEman Peck, on 02 January 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

Just to point something out dude, not talking **** here, but the Victor in MW4 Mercs could mount a Heavy Gauss on its arm.

And as a number of people have pointed out - the mechlab in MW4 didn't follow the rules.

[Foxmoan]

Im gonna have to say that even if it sounds like im a BT purist, the base CBT mech customization rules just plain work and fit with what alot of people are saying. Modding a non omni mech is costly, time consuming, and usually limited. (Dont forget the unbalancing rules, where if the new equipment isnt EXACTLY the same tonnage and criticals of the old, theres a high chance of permanently unbalancing the mech, making it easier to tip over and harder to aim with) So if the Devs are trying to make a real time version of classic Btech, like they said they were, implementing a style like that would be in my opinion the right way to go.

Edit: A possible middle ground though, is to even though the game world is on a 1:1 timeline, we all gotta remember its still a game. maybe cut the time down an increment, such as making an hour a minute, a day an hour, something like that. Thats just a rough idea, Im sure someone else can do better.

Edit 2: And heck, gotta keep in mind the timeline we are in. In this point in time, most refits are gonna be from salvaged parts, not bought ones, and I think that is a GREAT bonus. To be able to customize with parts you salvage seems like a great idea to me, especially sense you would only have access to what you dont completely crit off your enemies (and then having everything randomly and fairly split between you and your lancemates for a little added fun) so that in of itself would give free customization with strict limits. Add on what i said above with unbalancing that you will also need to factor in just how good a tech you wanna hire to do it all (do it expensively and right, or cheap and risk permanently effing up your mech). With this being a non-standard MMO, you wont get money from kills and looting, but from a paycheck, adding further limitations while still leaving it free.

Edit 3: OMG one more thing i forgot to add on. I dont remember what game it was, but it was for the PS2 and it was a mech title that let you customize and modify your mech freely right down to fine tuning each part (not saying we should do that) but it was very costly, so taking out the time frame, if you had a "incomplete" mech you could rent one for the battles. We could do the same here. From what is being said, it seems there might be starter mechs of each weight class and even from different houses. While your trying to fund or wait on that one big mod, you could just freely rent a starter in the weight class you prefer. Wiz, bang, boom, no not being able to play while still having time restriction on full customization to lower the amount of UberBoatz in play at any given time. everybody wins.

Edited by Foxmoan, 02 January 2012 - 03:45 AM.

[NotNewHere]

In my last post when I said if u mount a gauss rifle on a stormcrow it should rip its arm due to massive recoil on such a small mech, I meant the Adder (Puma) not the StormCrow (Rokyen)

[tony katdander]

Gorith, on 16 December 2011 - 11:14 PM, said:

Mechlab should be VERY limited (if atall) to avoid frankenmech play style of the previous games

i say there should be variants instead of franken mechs...almost like a atlas with 2 gaussrifles,lasers and lrm missiles or you could choose 4 pulse laser,4 autocannon 5 and srm...

Edited by tony katdander, 02 January 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[tony katdander]

Foxmoan, on 02 January 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Im gonna have to say that even if it sounds like im a BT purist, the base CBT mech customization rules just plain work and fit with what alot of people are saying. Modding a non omni mech is costly, time consuming, and usually limited. (Dont forget the unbalancing rules, where if the new equipment isnt EXACTLY the same tonnage and criticals of the old, theres a high chance of permanently unbalancing the mech, making it easier to tip over and harder to aim with) So if the Devs are trying to make a real time version of classic Btech, like they said they were, implementing a style like that would be in my opinion the right way to go.

Edit: A possible middle ground though, is to even though the game world is on a 1:1 timeline, we all gotta remember its still a game. maybe cut the time down an increment, such as making an hour a minute, a day an hour, something like that. Thats just a rough idea, Im sure someone else can do better.

Edit 2: And heck, gotta keep in mind the timeline we are in. In this point in time, most refits are gonna be from salvaged parts, not bought ones, and I think that is a GREAT bonus. To be able to customize with parts you salvage seems like a great idea to me, especially sense you would only have access to what you dont completely crit off your enemies (and then having everything randomly and fairly split between you and your lancemates for a little added fun) so that in of itself would give free customization with strict limits. Add on what i said above with unbalancing that you will also need to factor in just how good a tech you wanna hire to do it all (do it expensively and right, or cheap and risk permanently effing up your mech). With this being a non-standard MMO, you wont get money from kills and looting, but from a paycheck, adding further limitations while still leaving it free.

Edit 3: OMG one more thing i forgot to add on. I dont remember what game it was, but it was for the PS2 and it was a mech title that let you customize and modify your mech freely right down to fine tuning each part (not saying we should do that) but it was very costly, so taking out the time frame, if you had a "incomplete" mech you could rent one for the battles. We could do the same here. From what is being said, it seems there might be starter mechs of each weight class and even from different houses. While your trying to fund or wait on that one big mod, you could just freely rent a starter in the weight class you prefer. Wiz, bang, boom, no not being able to play while still having time restriction on full customization to lower the amount of UberBoatz in play at any given time. everybody wins.

im taking a wild guess at armored core..right?,

[tony katdander]

i think you should allow FULL customization but if 1 thing is off or greatly unbalanced,it hinders your whole performance,like take a look at armored core 4:for answer.it has full tuning where it affects the mechs center of gravity and has stabilizers.it should at least be a challenge to customize a mech,like a real challenge with math involved to calculate energy consumption,center of gravity...

[SoulReaver DA]

By the tallies so far, I can't help but wonder if players understand the question.
in the past, many great mechs have been too limited or useless in many ways due to {Pre-Designated} slots.
Having the option to be unique and different gives more variety and customability.
Not saying a Catapult shouldn't be a missle carrier, but what a suprise if it suddenly punched your cockpit with a Gause rifle?! Lol

[Ghostrider45]

your All furgetting too thing about the mech and repairs one is that every mech has a weight clase so your not going to be able to a take a jenner a strap 2 PPCs to it an get it to work! each clase mech has wieght limt an armet limt an each engine can only get you so fast a built mech has bays just like a bomer are a tank you can only fit the wright size and wieght in there with out a comeplit rebuild. but in a real fight there are two types of Repair jobs the good one where ever thing is working just wright an takes a long time and the Down an dirty one witch takes lase time this one all they do is slap on armer plate over the holes and bypass the wireing to get you fireing again not nice and wont last long but could help win a battle are a game and takes less time to do!!

[Punisher 1]

Humm maybe this should be a limited charater class ability. How I see it customizing tech would be a real limited ability held by a few. Sure most pilots would know how to do basic mechanical maintenance and maybe battlefield patches but beyond thatyou would have to be specialized to actually make something.

This is where a tech or crafter class would come in.

They might limit thier ability such as lesser combat bonuses or not having the ability to run heavy mechs or what ever seems appropriate but the pay off would be reduced repair times, greater salvage abilities, custom tweaks on the items, ability to market or resell items that are custom.

This might be as simple as just choosing a branch when you create a character instead of choosing another skill set related to combat. Eh, however they do it I think there would be an interest in this ability or area rather than just a pure combat goon game.

[Strum Wealh]

Foxmoan, on 02 January 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Im gonna have to say that even if it sounds like im a BT purist, the base CBT mech customization rules just plain work and fit with what alot of people are saying. Modding a non omni mech is costly, time consuming, and usually limited. (Dont forget the unbalancing rules, where if the new equipment isnt EXACTLY the same tonnage and criticals of the old, theres a high chance of permanently unbalancing the mech, making it easier to tip over and harder to aim with) So if the Devs are trying to make a real time version of classic Btech, like they said they were, implementing a style like that would be in my opinion the right way to go.

Agreed.

Foxmoan, on 02 January 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Edit: A possible middle ground though, is to even though the game world is on a 1:1 timeline, we all gotta remember its still a game. maybe cut the time down an increment, such as making an hour a minute, a day an hour, something like that. Thats just a rough idea, Im sure someone else can do better.

'Twas previously suggested in another thread to take the CBT repair times and reduce them by a given factor - for example, reducing the times by a factor of 10 would mean that a full engine replacement, which normally takes ~360 minutes (~6 hours) would take ~36 minutes (~0.5 hours)...

Foxmoan, on 02 January 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Edit 2: And heck, gotta keep in mind the timeline we are in. In this point in time, most refits are gonna be from salvaged parts, not bought ones, and I think that is a GREAT bonus. To be able to customize with parts you salvage seems like a great idea to me, especially sense you would only have access to what you dont completely crit off your enemies (and then having everything randomly and fairly split between you and your lancemates for a little added fun) so that in of itself would give free customization with strict limits. Add on what i said above with unbalancing that you will also need to factor in just how good a tech you wanna hire to do it all (do it expensively and right, or cheap and risk permanently effing up your mech). With this being a non-standard MMO, you wont get money from kills and looting, but from a paycheck, adding further limitations while still leaving it free.

Agreed.

Foxmoan, on 02 January 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Edit 3: OMG one more thing i forgot to add on. I dont remember what game it was, but it was for the PS2 and it was a mech title that let you customize and modify your mech freely right down to fine tuning each part (not saying we should do that) but it was very costly, so taking out the time frame, if you had a "incomplete" mech you could rent one for the battles. We could do the same here. From what is being said, it seems there might be starter mechs of each weight class and even from different houses. While your trying to fund or wait on that one big mod, you could just freely rent a starter in the weight class you prefer. Wiz, bang, boom, no not being able to play while still having time restriction on full customization to lower the amount of UberBoatz in play at any given time. everybody wins.

Perhaps you're thinking of one of the later Armored Core games (which are legendary for their customization)?
Though, the bit about weight classes and renting a mech if your normal one is inoperable leads me to suspect that you're more likely thinking of Steel Lancer Arena International (and/or its XBox-based predecessor, Phantom Crash), which also had very-nearly the level of customization available in AC (though, both PC and SLAI did include the (simplified) tuning of individual parts)...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 02 January 2012 - 08:54 AM.

[Gorith]

SoulReaver DA, on 02 January 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

By the tallies so far, I can't help but wonder if players understand the question.
in the past, many great mechs have been too limited or useless in many ways due to {Pre-Designated} slots.
Having the option to be unique and different gives more variety and customability.
Not saying a Catapult shouldn't be a missle carrier, but what a suprise if it suddenly punched your cockpit with a Gause rifle?! Lol

There is a cannon variant that does that with PPCs.
The point I atleast am trying to make is customization needs to be limited to much and it just becomes "what can i dump in order to get this mech to where it can alpha or 2 volley anything smaller.

[fallonsky]

i think that insted of being a scratch build or factory build you could get a mech with already strandard guns and then change anything and everything about that mech to your stile. however like some people have said we will have people going in with max armor and guns to "alpha everything" i think then we should have not only one tipe of gun or one tipe of armor but 3 difrent types. like if you have one tipe of armor maxed out you cant become op because then there will be a wepon that is way more effective at taking out mechs with that armor.
kind of like in fire emblemem games there is the lance the axe and the sword that are in a triangle that do more or less damage depending on what they are fighting agenst

armor 1 is bad vs wepon 2| armor 1 is ok vs wepon 1| armor 1 is good vs wepon 3
armor 2 is bad vs wepon 3| armor 2 is ok vs wepon 2| armor 2 is good vs wepon 1
armor 3 is bad vs wepon 1| armor 3 is ok vs wepon 3| armor 3 is good vs wepon 2

Edited by fallonsky, 02 January 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

fallonsky, BTech has different types of armor later in the timeline that fit what you suggest, but we won't get access to those for a while.

And..here is something to chew on for everyone on both sides of this debate..

House military..you don't GET to customize your ride..that piece of hardware was issued to you by the House, it's THEIRS, not yours, you aren't allowed to replace the weapons, armor, electronics or anything else unless they were blown off in combat. And odds are, you'll be issues EXACT duplicates of whatever was blown off to replace it with. Just like in the real world military today, what you get issued is what you get and the gods help you if you muck about with it!
Exceptions would someone who has an Inherited Mech, but we won't be those exceptions, we're starting off as the grunts who get issued what we get issued by the House we serve. And high ranking officers with money..enough money to pay for everything themselves, which is a LOT of money on a military pay check. In the Houses, you don't get the salvage, the HOUSE gets it, you may get a medal..but the goodies go to the House...remember that.

Mercs..ah..now here's where it gets fun. Merc Corps either recruit people who already have their own Mech(multiple ways to get them) and what gets done to them is entirely up to the owner and what they can afford. Which generally means, in a few years, with nothing but gravy contracts and great salvage, you can modify your Mech a little bit! Or, some Merc Corps will issue a new recruit a Mech, usually something small and cheap, and any repairs come out of your pay. You want to customize that issued Mech, you'll probably need enough c-bills to buy the Mech from the Corp THEN pay for the customizations on top of that. IF they'll sell you the Mech, it IS one of their assets after all, not really worth it to the Corp to sell it, since the cost of replacing it will be higher then the sale price, IF it can be replaced at all. Something else to remember..Mech construction and production is limited at this time in the BTU, many Mechs are currently impossible to replace, they haven't been produced in hundreds of years.

Lone Wolves..the people who'll get screwed over here, because they'll have a Mech, but without the pay from a Merc Corp, just keeping the thing running day to day will eat any money they make, forget saving up for that customization they dream about, they'll be doing good to replace that Small Laser when it gets destroyed. Looking at the lore and novels, there's not many Lone Wolves out there in the BTU, and the few that exist..aren't what they seem at all.

BTech does allow for full customization of any existing chassis, provided you follow the simple but strict rules. Tonnage limits by chassis, space restrictions regardless of chassis size(Light or Assault, ALL Mechs have the exact same number of slots for space), and what can and can't be placed where on a Mech's chassis. There's a cost, c-bills, for everything you want to do, and there's a time factor in TT that's totally meaningless in TT, and it would be suicide for PGI to add time for a F2P game with NOTHING to do ingame but drop into combat, so forget the time factor. Money..that's where the limit on what you can do should be. House units, don't expect to get rich from a drop..or a lot of drops, you get paid a set amount per month, you are a government employee after all. Merc Corps, 5m c-bills for that contract, sounds great doesn't it! Uh..hold on there skippy..divide 5m by 12, subtract the costs to repair any damage incurred in the drop..oh...look at that, repairs were 9m..hmm..4m in the hole..yeah..Merc Corps don't get rich quickly, they usually barely make ends meet, it's why so many of them take House Garrison contracts..repairs get covered, expenses gets shared, people get a steady paycheck, the Merc Corp doesn't have to disband because they can't afford a pot to **** in after expenses.

These little things, straight from the TT setting, are all it takes to keep people from running wild with customization. It's what the TT uses to keep that from happening, it's why my entire TT group weren't running around with full battalions of customized Mechs at our disposal, instead we had 1 or 2 customized Mechs each..and we tended to be real careful with those, impossible to replace if destroyed, and expensive to repair when damaged. COST..pure money cost..that's all it takes. Time is useless, it's ignored in TT and it can't be used in a F2P game without a full MMO experience behind it, you know, stuff to do BESIDES combat, which MWO won't have, so forget time for repairs/customization, it's not viable in this situation. House units get paid flat salaries with bonuses for combat drops, they have to get some rank in the House military in order to be able to request permission to customize their House issued Mech, and they need the money to pay for that, House won't do it. Mercs have the cost of running a Merc Corp before anything else, big part of playing Merc in TT, it's expensive and time consuming and you don't get rich quick..unless you find an old Star League Cache..MWO will hopefully have those before TOO long..but until then..Mercs will be too busy paying for their daily expenses to worry about customizing their Mechs. Lone Wolves..personally don't see HOW MWO will make them work, Mechs are expensive pieces of hardware when you've got a House to pay for everything, don't see how some guy out there taking spot jobs here and there could afford his Jumpship fees, much less Dropship fees..or repairs on the Mech, ammo, and food to live on day to day.

[Gorith]

It's valid kristov though alot of a merc corps operating expense will be cut down by the fact that they basically said there will not be mech loss.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I don't even add in the factor of Mech loss Gorith, except when replacing a Mech sold to a Merc in the Corp. Actually having to replace a Mech would break most individual Mercs, they just don't have the money for it, and a Lone Wolf..forget it. Merc Corps could 'front' a Merc the c-bills to replace a lost Mech, but that's money that Merc would probably spend most of their life trying to pay back. Most contracts don't cover replacing a Mech, that's not the problem of the employer. Many Mercs become dispossessed..it's not really feasible to replace that Mech in most cases for a Merc.

House units, you lose a Mech, what happens is entirely upon what House, what unit, and the actual conditions under which said Mech was lost. Could be a few weeks in the infirmary, a few weeks of guard duty or kp..or time in the brig..or dishonorable discharge(which in the DCMS usually means your family gets to pick your body up minus a head)..or you could get a medal, a promotion and bigger, shiney new Mech! No telling, it'll depend on the factors involved when you are in a House unit.

Lone Wolf..I'd personally suggest you stand under that Mech as it's falling..it's really the least painful of your options.

[Johnathon Henrick]

but dont forget about the company store ....they really lov to hope merc company's get the parts they need all the way up till they all but in name became a house unit

[Kristov Kerensky]

Johnathon Henrick, on 02 January 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

but dont forget about the company store ....they really lov to hope merc company's get the parts they need all the way up till they all but in name became a house unit

I played TT as Steiner..but I started TT as a Merc..2 hot drops later, I was Steiner. I went from Merc to Steiner after 2 SUCCESSFUL battles, repairs and TCS 'deals'...always double check the fine print..*sigh* But I can't complain, had a very long and successful career in Steiner..got famous for stomping Clanners, never had a Tukayyid in our game, tactics and dirty fighting..house specialities! But I did start as a Merc. Something PGI should take into consideration..sometimes where the game FORCES a player by their own decisions can be more enjoyable then the player ever thought and a hell of a lot more fun.

[Jade R13]

All this is good but if u lose a mech are the pilot dies. Does the skill and the mech go to?

[Foxmoan]

Im just gonna add on here, that part of the reason boating as soo effective in previous mech games was INFACT the lack of TT rules with weapons. Take one of the more common boats, the PPCzilla. Heck yeah its effective, being able to hit with soo much power at any range without ammo needed..? Sign me up. But wait! in TT, unless your using the Clan ERPPC (we wont have acess to that for quite awhile, even a IS version is out of reach) you couldnt fire the weapon at all within a good several yards. Thats a BIG window for fast mechs to hurry into and just ruin your day without fear of retaliation. Thats why unless the pilot is braindead they will remember some backup weapons as long as the Devs are saying that there going to use TT rules as much as possible. I remember the novel "Illusions of Victory" where the main character fought a mech jock with a standard PPC that he had fired in close range, but it was explicitly said that it would have needed to be modified to be unsafe and less effective when used, and on top of that, fiering the weapon ruined it.

Basically what im saying is that for the most part special weapon rules from TT are omitted from gameplay on the pc, making weapons unbalanced already. It wouldnt be hard to make it so that unless a range restricted weapon is fired with X distance between himself and the target, the weapon just wont fire, not to mention all the other little rules changes that can be implemented from TT to make many boats worthless. (GaussZillas exploding randomly from a critical hit to the weapon itself, etc)

Edit: Thanks to a reply on a previous post I now remember the name of the game I remember and thought id mention it. it was called Steel Lancer Arena International (and its XBox-based predecessor, Phantom Crash)

Edited by Foxmoan, 02 January 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[Steel Angel]

Pre-made variants are (IMHO) more "cannon" than scratch builds. When the mech rolls off the assembly line, it's already got PPCs, autocannons and whatnot installed... there may be room for some customization by putting different weapons on the mounts, but you usually wouldn't find a custom built atlas walking around with two katanas from the factory... A custom designed mech would be just that... a non-production mech made in a custom factory or mech shop...