153 replies to this topic

[Logan812]

Lightfoot, on 18 May 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

In MechWarrior 4 the Arrow IV Thunderbolt had the ability to damage internals and weapons through armor. They called it "mech shattering". I never bothered to check BattleTech though, so when it happened twice last week I just assumed it was that.

MW4 also didn't buff and nerf everything every 5 seconds to try to balance mechs and weapons that aren't supposed to be balanced in the first place just because some whiners put the blame on everything and everyone but themselves when they lose.

You know what MW4 did have? LRMs that actually have the 1000m range they're supposed to have unlike MWO.

[Natred]

Koniving, on 18 May 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

Every weapon system has the chance and ability to net up to 3 criticals per shot. (Except Gauss and PPCs, which have 1x crits; mainly because a single crit instantly destroys just about any equipment hit when using them).

Any LRM has the ability to deliver 1 damage per crit, per missile. With checks for each individual missile.

.

See this is the issue right here..

so One lrm 15 with artmis can hit for theoretically up to 45 times... with one launcher doing up to 60 damage per shot if every missle crits?

This does not seem right to me in the slightest. The chances of this happening are probably extremely small but explains things..

Edited by Natred, 18 May 2017 - 02:11 PM.

[Koniving]

Natred, on 18 May 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

See this is the issue right here..

so One lrm 15 with artmis can hit for theoretically up to 45 times... with one launcher doing up to 60 damage per shot if every missle crits?

This does not seem right to me in the slightest. The chances of this happening are probably extremely small but explains things..

That's less than a 3% chance from each missile.
The "crit" damage would be 45 to crit-slots aka your equipment. The 45 damage would be spread to 1 slot per crit though some could repeat meaning that'd be up to 14 slots in any body part and if the damage tried to spread evenly it'd be each spot getting 3 damage and one might get 4 damage.
Actual damage done to you would be 15+6.75 in that extremely unlikely scenario.

AC/20 does 20 damage. With a significantly more likely scenario of 3x crit (as it's only gotta do it once), and it does 60 damage to your equipment and 20+9 damage to you. Each slot would get 20 damage and all left over damage would carry over, instantly destroying several pieces of equipment as most things have 10 health or less.

An IS medium laser can do 15 crit damage max and 7.25 structure damage for its one beam and we often throw 6 or more on our mechs.. Seen anyone cry about crits? I mean you're looking at 6 medium lasers doing a maximum potential of 90 crit damage and 43.5 structure damage per shot for just 6 tons, every 4 seconds or less. Have you seen any tears regarding this yet?

Just calm your actuators.

In reality approximately 52% of the time (if I'm recalling correctly) you'll get 0 crits from each hit. That means if we tally all the 100%s of an LRM-15 and get the 1,500 "%" that comes with 15 missiles, 780 "%" of them will fail to do anything at all. another chunk of the remaining 720 "%" will only get a single crit, leaving a tiny morsel that might get something more. Of course since it's an RNG element, there's a lot of times where every single missile fails to get any crits at all.

Edited by Koniving, 18 May 2017 - 02:33 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Mole, on 18 May 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

Lightfoot, man, I'm sorry to break it to you but there are no through-armor crits in MWO. There just aren't. Only way to lose a piece of equipment in MWO is to take overheat damage or get hit in a component that has lost its armor.

Quirks do cause audio issues, however
That, or the "Critical Damage" message is weird. Or both


On that topic, has Betty learned the difference between Right and Left? Or do we need to get a Sound Mod for that?

[Metus regem]

Natred, on 18 May 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

See this is the issue right here..

so One lrm 15 with artmis can hit for theoretically up to 45 times... with one launcher doing up to 60 damage per shot if every missle crits?

This does not seem right to me in the slightest. The chances of this happening are probably extremely small but explains things..

That one launcher, being the LRM/20, would need to hit with every missile on exposed componets... see the below image:




That means it is very common and very likely that a LRM/20 is going to hit you with between 10 and 15 missiles on average, with most of those not even hitting the same component. To get 15 damage to one component (the same as a Clan Gauss Rifle, that does it 12t) you will need between 3 and 4 LRM/20's, meaning even as a Clan Mech you are investing between 15 and 20t just in the launchers to do what a Gauss Rifle can do.

That's not even tanking into account that ECM is a hard counter to LRM's, Radar Deprivation is a hard counter to LRM's, good piloting skills are a hard counter to LRM's and being closer than 150m is a hard counter to LRM's (this is due to their inability to track a target well at such a short range).

Now I'm sorry if a LRM boat killed you, but really being in a position for a LRM boat to dump between four or more salvos on you to effectively kill you is your own damn fault. You should've been able to engage and murder it before it got the second salvo off.

Personally I do not see an issue with buffing a weak and bad weapon system by a whopping %15 extra damage on a critical hit, that it is not even guarantied to generate every time it hits an exposed section is more than fair. We're talking taking a missile from that salvo (and each missile gets a chance at a critical hit), from 1.1 damage to 4.36 damage, that is not even enough to destroy a clan machine gun. And hitting that same clan machine gun is what would generate a critical hit in the first place.

It means we can change this meme to include High Explosive skill now...:

[Johnny Z]

To early to tell but I have seen a couple times where LRMs seemed OP, both the same match. So I really don't know.

[sycocys]

I was wrong, the -crit node is entirely useless, probably the most useless filler thing on the armor tree.

Edited by sycocys, 18 May 2017 - 02:50 PM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

It's not the crit chance, it's that a lot of builds can't take radar derp, either fully or at all.

[Kroete]

Alexander of Macedon, on 18 May 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

It's not the crit chance, it's that a lot of builds can't take radar derp, either fully or at all.

They can,
but they dont want,
because they prefer the something other then the crutch.
Decisions and consequences ...

Thats why the new skilltree is better,
but a lot of the young folks dont know that anymore,
they come from and life in "save spaces".

[meteorol]

Natred, on 18 May 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

Just my thoughts on it... piggy backing off other people sitting in the back doing free unchallenged damage with little or no recourse

Lrm damage is not free. For every LRM terribad sitting behind a hill in his lrm 60+ assault, usually someone on his team has to pay with their armor for every point of damage the lrm terribad is dealing.

[Valhallan]

Arrow IV's or Tbolts could never break items through armor unless it was a TAC, there were only 2 items that could "reliably" crit through armor, tandem-charge missiles which are srm only could crit even with armor but with a -2 penalty (normal is 8+/41%, so TC's are 10+/24%) . And AP AC ammo which is IS only, unusable in UAC's and RAC's and had a penalty that decreased with increased boresize, -1 for 20 -2 for 10 etc. My ac20 urbie would LOVE AP ammo (through armor critting that pokebear gauss...mmm) but you can already hear the whine coming from the horizons about RNG.

[Willard Phule]

Roughneck45, on 18 May 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Really? Find some cover, and use it.

Crit chance is never something to build around anyway.

The REAL change is that not everyone has radar dep and ECM is less effective.

I see you've never used a TC5 or better...

[Roughneck45]

Willard Phule, on 19 May 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

I see you've never used a TC5 or better...

Oh, I have, but TC's are icing on the cake, not the base layer.

[Coolant]

I'm not sure if I agree that LRM's shouldnt have crit chances, but I sure don't agree that anyone is hiding because that they might be critted. If you have armor there is zero chance of getting critted. People take cover because they can't shoot back at missile boats cause they don't need to have line of sight...which is, no offense, kinda cowardly, but I understand their tactical importance. It's fine it you want to shoot at me with missiles and I can see you...

Edited by Coolant, 24 May 2017 - 09:49 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeah I feel like coordinated brawling will almost always destroy any kind of LRM meta in its own way. The speed rates of even meta assault mechs, combined with most map layouts (even the dreaded by some polar highlands distance can be made moot) make closing distance a real non issue, and once that distance is closed, any LRMs become immediately inefficient damage exchange and/or just put more potential targets in a target saturation charge, out of sight for the main brawl (or chase if they flee), which makes the team of all brawlers advantaged there again.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 24 May 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

I still get PPC shots that do damage to the back from the front. Maybe that is what can cause weapons to get shot out with full armour.

[Weeny Machine]

Who cares if it is op, up or balanced? It is simply a piss poor mechanic when you need to have to lift your skirt like a little girl and run away behind an obstacle or out of LoS just because mechwarrior CoolDudeBehindaRock presses "R" and fires from 800m without even having LoS on you.

This game could be much more fun if there were more movement of the mechs. However, because of this and the extreme range of energy weapons each and everyone is crawling from rock to rock like an amphibian.

[Mole]

Bush Hopper, on 24 May 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

Who cares if it is op, up or balanced? It is simply a piss poor mechanic when you need to have to lift your skirt like a little girl and run away behind an obstacle or out of LoS just because mechwarrior CoolDudeBehindaRock presses "R" and fires from 800m without even having LoS on you.

This game could be much more fun if there were more movement of the mechs. However, because of this and the extreme range of energy weapons each and everyone is crawling from rock to rock like an amphibian.

800m? Puhleeze. Any LRM pilot worth his salt won't fire from that far out unless he is 90% certain the lock is rock solid and the target cannot get to cover. In any other situation it's just wasting ammo.

Edited by Mole, 24 May 2017 - 11:54 AM.

[Novakaine]

Pro-Tip.
Don't be a target crit protection 100%.
Please just stop.

[Weeny Machine]

Mole, on 24 May 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

800m? Puhleeze. Any LRM pilot worth his salt won't fire from that far out unless he is 90% certain the lock is rock solid and the target cannot get to cover. In any other situation it's just wasting ammo.

When he sees you are engaged, e.g. in a brawl. Then it doesn't matter if it is a good Lurmer or not - you have to disengage. Yaaay. And this is the point.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 24 May 2017 - 12:05 PM.