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Still Waiting On The Roll Back For The One Change That Truly Killed Balance In This Game!

Balance

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#21 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 06:30 AM

View PostDGTLDaemon, on 20 May 2017 - 02:02 AM, said:

I disagree. Smaller number of players places greater emphasis on individual skill, and by "skill" I mean accuracy, reflexes, hand-to-eye coordination - things that many middle-aged players like myself simply lack. In a 12v12 match, you have plenty of opportunities to perform well by being smart and tactical - poking from cover, flanking, focus firing. The smaller the number of players, the more often you'll be forced into head-on duels, and those duels will always be won by

Until you poke at the wrong place, and you got the attention 10+ mechs all firing with their poke mechs at you, with your as the only target.

Do that at early in the match, and you waste a lot of precious time as spectator mech or queuing up for another match with a mech you didn't want to fly - and as a middle aged player with a real life keeping you busy, time is not something you want to waste.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 20 May 2017 - 06:30 AM.


#22 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 06:38 AM

View PostMadBadger, on 20 May 2017 - 02:23 AM, said:

IIRC back when we had 8v8 people complained about it quite a lot. Mostly that a couple DCs, AFKs, a bad player or two, or a griefer could basically throw the match. Also that 1-2 'poor battle decisions' would decide the match, eg., 2 guys walk around a corner into a firing line and die, that's it, match decided. Although one issue back then (not sure the exact timing) was that groups still dropped in the primary queue and so 2-3-4 mans also had a disproportionate effect on the battle.


There wasn't even a real match-maker back then. People with a habit of AFKing, trolling or disconnecting often naturally stay on the low tier levels of play and even slow-reflex terribad people like me can rise above the disconnecting troll AFKer. :P

#23 Imperius

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 06:52 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 20 May 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:


I made the proposal back in 2014. ;) https://mwomercs.com...ormance-issues/


I've complained since 2013 ;)

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__2692261

#24 Fox the Apprentice

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:03 AM

View PostImperius, on 20 May 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

I've complained since 2013 Posted Image

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__2692261

Ladies, ladies.. you're ALL pretty! No need to argue!

#25 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:05 AM

I not sure that 8v8 being better is not just another case of the "grass is always greener" mentality. I did not play a lot during the time when 8v8 was the norm but I do not remember it being significantly better than 12v12. Most of my exposure to 8v8 in MWO has been watching the MWOWC and and MRBC competitive matches which I do often. I know comparing comp to QP is comparing apples to grapes but TTK certainly does not appear to be longer in those matches. Once initial contact is made matches tend to only last a couple minutes. I know, "But elite aiming Skills!" True, but presumably also those guys have elite position, map awareness and twisting skills also yet the matches still end in a couple minutes and sometimes seconds if both teams are brawl. So, I am just not convinced that 8v8 is the answer to low TTK.

Some argue that you will survive long because there are less players shooting at you. I do not know if that is really the case because a decent 8 man team will still coordinate and call targets. I have never been killed by 12 Mechs shooting me. Usually two or three are the most that can get good focus on me if I make a mistake and that is sufficient to put me down. 12 mans seem to spread out quite a bit so I do not think that their focus fire is any more deadly than 8 because most of the time it is just not possible for everyone or even the majority of players in a 12 man groups to get a shot on target.

Having only 8 players on a team certainly will make a disconnect or a derp move by one player much more significant to the whole team. It is one thing when you know your teammates and can trust them to do the right thing and not make terrible mistakes. It is quite another when you are teamed up with a bunch of strangers that may or may not even try to play as a team. Also the venues that use 8 man teams all have the option of calling a mulligan if someone does not connect and the match is reset. Quick play does not have that option and a disconnect puts a team at a huge disadvantage.

I am also not convinced that it would speed up finding games and that the games you did find would be more competitive. In order to cut down on wait time, matches have to go off on a regular basis. That means that MM is grabbing whoever is available and putting them in games as quickly as possible. This is a constant flow. The only way to insure competitive games is to slow down the process and build teams from a player pool that is big enough to contain 16 equally skilled (or at least 16 equally Tiered) players. With 8 man teams the MM would have to make more games to serve the same population . I do not think it would solve anything.

Of course, all of this is speculation on my part. The only way to prove or disprove any of it is to revert to 8v8 for a while and gather data and impressions. I am not opposed to that.

Edited by Rampage, 20 May 2017 - 07:06 AM.


#26 Coolant

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:38 AM

In other games the battlefield has much more than 12v12 combatants...in order for MWO to compete with other games it needs to be littered with targets for both teams.

Not to mention that the previous installment, MW4:Mercs, has exactly 12v12 in most multiplayer servers. It worked there and it works well in MWO.

#27 Imperius

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:39 AM

Well

12 people focusing a mech down vs 8 is still a big difference;)

#28 HGAK47

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:52 AM

I was around for 8v8. I enjoyed it. I also really enjoy 12 v 12 too. I cant really have a preferance as each has its pros and cons.

#29 El Bandito

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:53 AM

View PostCoolant, on 20 May 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

In other games the battlefield has much more than 12v12 combatants...in order for MWO to compete with other games it needs to be littered with targets for both teams.

Not to mention that the previous installment, MW4:Mercs, has exactly 12v12 in most multiplayer servers. It worked there and it works well in MWO.


MW4:Merc was fine with 12v12 because the system requirements weren't heavy. MWO had lost a lot of budget rig players when 12v12 was introduced, due to FPS dropping 20 or more for everyone. FPS is still a big issue even now.

If we revert back to 8v8, I guarantee you that MWO will become accessible to a lot more players.


View PostImperius, on 20 May 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

I've complained since 2013 Posted Image

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__2692261


Ain't the same thing but fine.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 May 2017 - 07:55 AM.


#30 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:00 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 20 May 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:


If we revert back to 8v8, I guarantee you that MWO will become accessible to a lot more players.



But would they want to play it? I know some FPS players, team combat and military squad based fans that look at MWO and ask, "So you can only have 12 players on a team?"

#31 El Bandito

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:09 AM

View PostRampage, on 20 May 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

But would they want to play it? I know some FPS players, team combat and military squad based fans that look at MWO and ask, "So you can only have 12 players on a team?"


Many would at least try out the game, cause their computer can actually handle the game with 8v8. And some will stay.

#32 Imperius

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:21 AM

View PostRampage, on 20 May 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:


But would they want to play it? I know some FPS players, team combat and military squad based fans that look at MWO and ask, "So you can only have 12 players on a team?"

Hope they love light mechs or blackjacks...


#33 Imperius

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:24 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 20 May 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:


MW4:Merc was fine with 12v12 because the system requirements weren't heavy. MWO had lost a lot of budget rig players when 12v12 was introduced, due to FPS dropping 20 or more for everyone. FPS is still a big issue even now.

If we revert back to 8v8, I guarantee you that MWO will become accessible to a lot more players.




Ain't the same thing but fine.

You're right it wasn't the same thing but still relatable. Funny thing is they finally added more ammo, but it's such an insignificant amount it's not worth the nodes and is basically boarderline troll from Paul.

#34 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:28 AM

View PostImperius, on 20 May 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

Funny thing is they finally added more ammo, but it's such an insignificant amount it's not worth the nodes and is basically boarderline troll from Paul.


That is because you are a Clanner and most those Mechs do not have armor or structure quirks to build on. The IS guys are chortling about some of their mediums (like the Hunchback SP) having more armor and structure than Assaults now.

#35 Imperius

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:32 AM

View PostRampage, on 20 May 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:


That is because you are a Clanner and most those Mechs do not have armor or structure quirks to build on. The IS guys are chortling about some of their mediums (like the Hunchback SP) having more armor and structure than Assaults now.

Yes all the added armor to IS mechs made the ammo issue even worse. It's ok though I'm going to switch to laser vomit so we can get those nerfed some more too!

I want time to kill to be higher at the same time not shooting things in a shooter is not fun. Ammunition really shouldn't be a big deal.

#36 El Bandito

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:44 AM

View PostImperius, on 20 May 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

You're right it wasn't the same thing but still relatable. Funny thing is they finally added more ammo, but it's such an insignificant amount it's not worth the nodes and is basically boarderline troll from Paul.


Not to mention they added armor/structure nodes at the same time.

#37 sycocys

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:46 AM

If they got rid of 90% of the random ground clutter everyone's fps would increase and you could probably run 32 v 32.

#38 Levi Porphyrogenitus

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:47 AM

8v8 would bring back at least one of my friends, likely closer to three, and would increase my own play time significantly.

#39 JadePanther

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:54 AM

8v8 quick play would be good.. but they may have made maps too big for it now.. going down to 8v8 would increase Match concurrancy by a third allowing them to have widen the ranking a little and have tighter MM values.. Basically the more players in a match the wider the MM has to go in terms of player rank to fill the match..

anyways competitive has been in 8v8 so it would have more similarity there while leaving the larger battles for the more coordinated faction warfare setting..

#40 Imperius

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:57 AM

View PostJadePanther, on 20 May 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

8v8 quick play would be good.. but they may have made maps too big for it now.. going down to 8v8 would increase Match concurrancy by a third allowing them to have widen the ranking a little and have tighter MM values.. Basically the more players in a match the wider the MM has to go in terms of player rank to fill the match..

anyways competitive has been in 8v8 so it would have more similarity there while leaving the larger battles for the more coordinated faction warfare setting..

Maps are still to small for 12 v 12 thinking mans shooter where everyone seems to NASCAR death ball left or right towards the middle of each map.





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