34 replies to this topic

[Scyther]

Comments in other heat-issue threads, and a few guides such as this one:
https://steamcommuni...s/?id=686548357

led me to test whether Heat Containment was doing what I thought it was, and whether it was worth skilling the nodes for it.

Unfortunately I see that Heat Containment numbers and effects have changed in several patches, and I am not sure what the 'current' numbers are supposed to be.

Let's take this mech for our test:

Test Mech BNC-3M(C), Testing Grounds: Forest Colony, Base Heat 0% standing still
BNC-3M(C)

This mech in my build has 21 DHS, 12% Heat Containment (4 nodes), no -HeatGen nodes or quirks. (Don't worry this build is just for heat test, not something I would run)

Fire all 4 PPCs at once should generate 69.92 Heat (from Smurfy Ghost Heat chart).

Firing all 4 PPCs, the heat bar goes to 98%. Remove 1 Heat Sink, fire all 4, the mech shuts down but takes little or no 'excess heat' damage.

From the last 'Heat Capacity Calculation' numbers I saw (Dec.2016 heat sink changes in patch notes), at 10 Internal DHS and 10 External DHS and 12% Heat Containment, the mech should probably be taking damage (67.2 Heat Capacity max, 69.92 Heat from weapons).

However at 10 Internal/11 External DHS the mech 'should' still be shutting down (68.88 Heat Capacity against 69.92 instant weapon heat). Instead it gets a Warning and a 98% heat bar.

Could somebody update me please on the current method of calculating Heat Capacity with DHS and Heat Containment?

[Husker Dude]

I was actually wondering about this skill when trying to decide whether to allocate nodes to the old Cool Run/Heat Containment items, or to just invest in the Heat Gen nodes under firepower.
I feel like there has to be a mathematical break-even point that you can calculate, where the maximum 15% capacity (requiring 13 points) does or does not exceed the total possible 10.5% generation (requiring 34 points) in terms of in-game heat management, but I am having trouble reasoning it out in my head, since I believe it will likely involve the actual number of heatsinks equipped and the mech's alpha.

[sycocys]

I bet they have 0 delay in cooling, so you fire and instantly start to cool x amount and it probably starts with a round number to jump the cooling off.

[Scyther]

79 views, 2 replies, but apparently nobody knows how Heat Capacity is currently calculated? Either that or it's so obvious people assume I should already know. I will dig around some more in Google and see what I can find.

[sycocys]

I think people were saying that its only calculated on the base heat cap. Base + the % modifier + heatsinks.

That's as far as I could guess on it for you, but as a side note I ran some unskilled clan HBKs last night compared to my skilled (with heat cap increase) HBK and it oddly didn't seem to make that much of a difference even with clan tech being hotter rigs.

So its somewhat hard to say if some of these skill nodes even function properly.

[Palfatreos]

So i did a test on night gyr on 2 maps (vitric forge, frozen city) with 2 erppc no extra heatsink (10 extr,2 internal from engine locked) standing still.

0 heat cont node : game gimme 52% heat both map. theory 100*28 heat /53 heat cap = 52.83 %

5 heat cont node : game gimme 48% heat both map.
Theory 100*28/60.95 = 45.94% (heat cont affect both 30 base cap and addiaontal heatsink.
Theory 100*28/57.5 = 48.70% (heat cont only affect 30 base cap which mean + 0.9 heat cap per node)

cant be arsed to test it further in detail though this as far i go.

Now i have no idea if this actual answer to your question lol.
But if you wanna test more stuf about heat i would choose put 2 erppc on night gyr since the mech has -100% external heat tranfer it is not affacted by enviremont change (i think?)

The link you showed is very intresting though

Edited by Palfatreos, 22 May 2017 - 01:38 PM.

[Cato Phoenix]

Palfatreos, on 22 May 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

So i did a test on night gyr on 2 maps (vitric forge, frozen city) with 2 erppc no extra heatsink (10 extr,2 internal from engine locked) standing still.

Just FYI - a Night Gyr shouldn't be able to appreciate any differences between those two maps due to having laser heat sinks, which ignore ambient temperature.

[Palfatreos]

Cato Phoenix, on 22 May 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

Just FYI - a Night Gyr shouldn't be able to appreciate any differences between those two maps due to having laser heat sinks, which ignore ambient temperature.

you mean the -100% external heat tranfer? idk what you mean with laser heat sinks

[Cato Phoenix]

Palfatreos, on 22 May 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

you mean the -100% external heat tranfer? idk what you mean with laser heat sinks

----------------------------------
http://www.sarna.net...Laser_Heat_Sink

Developed in 3051 and first fielded on the Clan Jade Falcon Night Gyr OmniMech, the laser heat sink was a revolutionary technology shift in cooling a BattleMech. Unlike a normal heat sink which uses radiators and heat-conductive fluids to cool a 'Mech, a laser heat sink uses lasers to excite the hot exhaust gasses to a higher-energy state, converting the infrared energy of the gasses to light which is then shunted out of the 'Mech via a series of highly polished surfaces. The resulting light show is highly visible and distinctive, which, while a serious drawback during covert operations, isn't really of much consequence under the traditional tenets of Clan warfare.
-----------------------

100% external heat transfer is just the name of the in game mechanic for laser heat sinks.

Edited by Cato Phoenix, 22 May 2017 - 01:51 PM.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

The fact that we need to determine whether something actually has an impact means this tree wasn't ready to ship live....as is obvious to most.

[Palfatreos]

Cato Phoenix, on 22 May 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

----------------------------------
http://www.sarna.net...Laser_Heat_Sink

Developed in 3051 and first fielded on the Clan Jade Falcon Night Gyr OmniMech, the laser heat sink was a revolutionary technology shift in cooling a BattleMech. Unlike a normal heat sink which uses radiators and heat-conductive fluids to cool a 'Mech, a laser heat sink uses lasers to excite the hot exhaust gasses to a higher-energy state, converting the infrared energy of the gasses to light which is then shunted out of the 'Mech via a series of highly polished surfaces. The resulting light show is highly visible and distinctive, which, while a serious drawback during covert operations, isn't really of much consequence under the traditional tenets of Clan warfare.
-----------------------

100% external heat transfer is just the name of the in game mechanic for laser heat sinks.

yeah was just making sure that external work as i thought since the same cant be said from heat contaiment whic i though affect base cap and heatsink not onl base cap

[razenWing]

I am so glad someone linked that guide!

The author is a good friend of mine that sadly, no longer plays. I watched him spent about a month jumping hoops doing research and countless testing to figure out usable data to compile the guide that you see. There are basically 3 experts in this subject, Smurfy that analyzed the game code, Li Song that once researched the heat testing, and smokytehbear the author.

I may not be as knowledgeable with the above 3, but working alongside Smoky, I picked up a thing or two, and let me try if I can answer the question (o, btw, you can see that he noted me as the co-author, that's giving me WAY more credit than I deserved. I just double check his paper and reviewed the findings before he published. Heh)

Anyways, onto Smurfy!

So I believe Smurfy removed all mastery since the last patch. Unless data is still legacy, I am going to assume all weaponlab value is correct, and up to date.

[edited with correct value]

What I got is that your BNC original setup is 66.5 heat capacity. The skill to raise heat cap is not to raise the SUM but only the original 30. Thus, with 12% that you have, we can add 3.6 ontop of 66.5, giving you... 70.1. Theory crafting, 69.92/70.1 = 99.7%, which is very close to the value you got from actual testing.

(for reference, 1% is 1.19, which will take you less than a quarter of a second to move to 98%, so I am not surprised that the observed value is 98 instead of 99. (PS PGI must round down in this case, because it wouldn’t make sense to show you 100% and still operational)


Now, I went ahead and remove 1 heatsink, and got a baseline of 65. 65+3.6 = 68.6, thus, you shutdown (~102%). However, that shutdown is probably brief as in the previous test, you remove the identical 1% in a blink of an eye. According to Smurfy, you remove 3.5 heat/sec. The difference between your shutdown and heat cap is only 1.32, taking only .38 of a second to return to 100%.

Thus, that also explains the no damage, as heat from this fast of a duration usually result in no damage (as I have done far worse and gotten away without a change in color)

In any case, I am glad people are talking about my friend's work. As he always put it, keep up the good fight!

Edited by razenWing, 22 May 2017 - 03:11 PM.

[Wildstreak]

First, I would not use a Mech that shuts down from one alpha especially one that causes GH.

Second, it may be easier to have 2 Banshees, one with the Nodes on, the other unskilled, and compare both. Last time I tested something about Heat, I used Hunchback-4H and -4J Energy Boats since they have almost the same E mounts, I was seeing how much of a difference the 4H Heat Gen Quirk did so put the same build on both Mechs.
If you do not have 2 Banshees, pick a Mech you have 2 variants of that can run the same build, one skilled the other not.

[LORD ORION]

Heat capacity should be
30 base
+2 per engine DHS
+1.4 per DHS

So for that BNC
30 + 28 + 9.8 = 67.8

Heat Containment bonus 12% = 67.8 * 1.12 = 75.936

[razenWing]

LORD ORION, on 22 May 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

Heat capacity should be
30 base
+2 per engine DHS
+1.4 per DHS

So for that BNC
30 + 28 + 9.8 = 67.8

Heat Containment bonus 12% = 67.8 * 1.12 = 75.936

Wrong on the containment calculation, but pointed out 1 mistake I made. Will recalculate

Edited by razenWing, 22 May 2017 - 02:57 PM.

[Revis Volek]

FYI


NTG are broken and are one of the few mechs that DO NOT NEED the Operations Tree currently.


This is not GAME WIDE and it exclusive to the NTG only as far as myself and many others can tell. All other mechs can get back to 20% dissipation and 15% Heat Cap but are at 10% and 0% before skilled and actually function this way.

Edited by Revis Volek, 22 May 2017 - 02:52 PM.

[Scyther]

Ah, okay, we're getting a little off track here. Apologies for not posting more data earlier, I had lots more info but I assumed someone would know/have the actual current calculations so I asked for them rather than providing all of my own data.

@Wildstreak: The op says it is a heat test build and not a combat build.

@Razenwing: Thank you for the info on Smokeytehbears' guide. I checked multiple sources, Forest Colony should be a heat neutral map. Also, the Dec.2016 patch notes state they changed the Heat Capacity for DHS to be a flat +1.5 per DHS for both IS and Clan DHS. (Smokey's guide says last update July 2016 so won't reflect this change) Also, firing 4 PPCs, the heat bar goes to 98%, every time, no mistake.

@Lord Orion: Those are at least outdated, and definitely currently incorrect, Heat Capacity formulae.

I will be back later with more data, in the meantime here are the links I had used in trying to find this answer myself:

http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/ << Ghost Heat math

https://mwomercs.com...-1490-13dec2016 << DHS changed to 1.5 Heat Capacity

Dev reply that "Heat Containment factors in the total heat threshold of the 'Mech (Base + Value gained
through your heatsinks,) and cool run factors in your total heat sink efficiency":
https://mwomercs.com...er/page__st__20

Environmental Heat:
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/
https://mwomercs.com...-affects-mechs/ << Map Ambient Temps
https://www.reddit.c...heat_mechanics/
https://mwomercs.com...-by-heat-level/ << Map 'Text' Temp (deg.C)

Useful Heat Guides:
https://steamcommuni...s/?id=686548357
http://mwomercs.com/...eat-management/
http://mwomercs.com/...rstanding-heat/

Edited by MadBadger, 22 May 2017 - 05:35 PM.

[razenWing]

MadBadger, on 22 May 2017 - 04:20 PM, said:

Ah, okay, we're getting a little off track here. Apologies for not posting more data earlier, I had lots more info but I assumed someone would know/have the actual current calculations so I asked for them rather than providing all of my own data.

@Wildstreak: The op says it is a heat test build and not a combat build.

@Razenwing: Thank you for the info on Smokeytehbears' guide. I checked multiple sources, Forest Colony should be a heat neutral map. Also, the Dec.2016 patch notes state they changed the Heat Capacity for DHS to be a flat +1.5 per DHS for both IS and Clan DHS. (Smokey's guide says last update July 2016 so won't reflect this change) Also, firing 4 PPCs, the heat bar goes to 98%, every time, no mistake.

@Lord Orion: Those are at least outdated, and definitely currently incorrect, Heat Capacity formulae.

I will be back later with more data, in the meantime here are the links I had used in trying to find this answer myself:

http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/ << Ghost Heat math

https://mwomercs.com...-1490-13dec2016 << DHS changed to 1.5 Heat Capacity

Dev reply that "Heat Containment factors in the total heat threshold of the 'Mech (Base + Value gained
through your heatsinks,) and cool run factors in your total heat sink efficiency":
https://mwomercs.com...er/page__st__20

Environmental Heat:
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/
https://mwomercs.com...-affects-mechs/ << Map Ambient Temps
https://www.reddit.c...heat_mechanics/
https://mwomercs.com...-by-heat-level/ << Map 'Text' Temp (deg.C)

Useful Heat Guides:
https://steamcommuni...s/?id=686548357
http://mwomercs.com/...eat-management/
http://mwomercs.com/...rstanding-heat/

Well, I think we are on the right track of we are just off by 1%. That 1 heat is taken off somewhere, I'll check the BNC quirk list to see if I can figure out anything. sometimes, it's like the littlest thing. Maybe heat gen skill tree node by any chance?

*edit nevermind, checked the quirk, no -heat gen. I used the value from smurfy weapon lab, not manual calculation from Smoky's guide, so there shouldn't be a value issue as Smurfy updates his program using game code fairly regularly (again, his program is not always correct, but for at least the basic values, I think those are pretty good)

Aside from the 1% difference, I think we are fairly set in terms of borderline/shutdown behavior. (99 vs 102), so I don't think there's an issue there. So like so many other people, I am just going to have to say it's the instantaneous heat removal that cause that 1 heat difference. Maybe it's being calculated simultaneously. I don't know, but it's worth investigating to see if across the board, mechs are just a little bit off.

Edited by razenWing, 22 May 2017 - 06:18 PM.

[LORD ORION]

MadBadger, on 22 May 2017 - 04:20 PM, said:

@Lord Orion: Those are at least outdated, and definitely currently incorrect, Heat Capacity formulae.

Should have known better than to pull something from some website anywhere.

Here is the last patch note I could find where heat sinks were adjusted. (13-dec-2016)

Single Heat Sinks
• External Heat Sink Dissipation Rate remains at 0.12
• Engine Heat Sink Dissipation Rate increased to 0.12 (from 0.11)
• Heat Capacity remains at 1.2

Double Heat Sinks (Inner Sphere)
• External Heat Sink Dissipation Rate increased to 0.15 (from 0.14)
• Engine Heat Sink Dissipation Rate remains at .2
• Heat Capacity increased to 1.5 (from 1.1)

Double Heat Sinks (Clan)
• External Heat Sink Dissipation Rate remains at 0.15
• Engine Heat Sink Dissipation Rate remains at .2
• Heat Capacity increased to 1.5 (from 1.1)
• Component Health reduced to 6.6 (from 10)

[Palfatreos]

LORD ORION, on 22 May 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

Heat capacity should be
30 base
+2 per engine DHS
+1.4 per DHS

So for that BNC
30 + 28 + 9.8 = 67.8

Heat Containment bonus 12% = 67.8 * 1.12 = 75.936

You made 2 mistake in your calcultation first how many internal external heatsink there are (this seems to be very commen mistake the more i read people post about it)
internal = heatsink that from the engine (not added by the player)
external = heatsink added by the player (even if it you put it in the engine slot it external)

second mistake how heat containment works.
you assuming it

net heat cap = total heat cap * (1+heat cont node)
which i made same mistake until mad pointed out this guide and made me rethink my statement.

net heat cap = base mech cap * (1+heat cont node) + heatsink heat cap.

Tested another mech this time kdk3 with 2 erppc and the % value close to the guide beside being 1% off which is probably because heat dissipation start instanly when you have heat and the % shown ingame has a delay factor so by the time it show the correct value some of the heat already dissipated.

Anyway anybody who intrested evrything about net,effec heat cap this guide seems the most accurate and correct one so far. Thanks for pointing this guide out mad.