34 replies to this topic

[Scyther]

Hmm, yes, if (as Razenwing hypothesizes), the first 'heat dissipation tick' is effectively simultaneous with firing (or so close that the UI/my eyes show them at the same time) then that would put us pretty much in line with the most recent numbers (+1.5 heat capacity per DHS and Heat Containment applied to all).

I may test this further, but in the meantime I've got premium time to burn in battle, so shelving it for a while. Thank you all for the ideas and input!

Edited by MadBadger, 23 May 2017 - 03:56 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Guys, I am truly interested which of the two methods is more beneficial for heat management, but you seem to be forgetting one bonus the heat gen skills have over the heat containment and cool runs..

While the cool run and heat containment skills are in a separate tree, and to get to them, you have to waste points on non-usefull skills.

The Heat gen skills are in the firepower tree.. and to get to them, you have to go through a bunch of USEFULL nodes.. nodes like range, velocity, and weapon upgrades..

For me, that's a big part of the reason why, if forced to choose, I go with heat gen skills..

[Wattila]

Vellron2005, on 23 May 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:

Guys, I am truly interested which of the two methods is more beneficial for heat management, but you seem to be forgetting one bonus the heat gen skills have over the heat containment and cool runs..

While the cool run and heat containment skills are in a separate tree, and to get to them, you have to waste points on non-usefull skills.

The Heat gen skills are in the firepower tree.. and to get to them, you have to go through a bunch of USEFULL nodes.. nodes like range, velocity, and weapon upgrades..

For me, that's a big part of the reason why, if forced to choose, I go with heat gen skills..

Have to take node count in account. Firepower tree is a huge point sink with lots of low value nodes. You have to take 31 firepower nodes at minimum (often more to avoid undesirable nodes) to get all 14 heat gen nodes. Getting five cool run nodes offers comparable heat dissipation with just 17 nodes. It might be a no-brainer for laser vomit mechs, but if you're boating Dakka or PPCs, it's something worth considering.

[Palfatreos]

MadBadger, on 23 May 2017 - 03:55 AM, said:

Hmm, yes, if (as Razenwing hypothesizes), the first 'heat dissipation tick' is effectively simultaneous with firing (or so close that the UI/my eyes show them at the same time) then that would put us pretty much in line with the most recent numbers (+1.5 heat capacity per DHS and Heat Containment applied to all).

I may test this further, but in the meantime I've got premium time to burn in battle, so shelving it for a while. Thank you all for the ideas and input!

If you ever plan in testing could you croscheck with my excel spreadsheat?

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

Part of the formulas are base on razenwing friend heat guide. It recomended to open in download and edit in microsoft excel file since the weapon part actually has a sort table and for some reason the google version seems laggy for me probably because of certain function i used that resource intensive?

it first version so i hope i dint mess up some formulas XD

Edit:

Any green/grey color are manuel inputs. (grey = value 0 anything else is green easier to visual reset stuff.
purple color the outcomes formulas
right side of node% you can type clan or is this will change the node% value to clan or is

Edited by Palfatreos, 23 May 2017 - 10:48 AM.

[Scyther]

Spreadsheet looks interesting. At first glance I would note:

-Spreadsheet looks like it is assuming DHS, might add an option for SHS/DHS or just a note saying 'DHS numbers".
-Looks like you are adding +2 Heat Capacity for internal DHS, however the Dec.2016 patch notes seem to indicate +1.5 Capacity for all DHS internal or external (at least that's the way I read it, could be wrong).
-Your input box for Environmental Heat could become a drop-down list with Map names that select the proper heat value (if this is easy, I have no idea), or you could simply put some text in the empty boxes to the right of it listing the heat factor for the various maps.

Haven't actually poked at it yet, will let you know if I do.

[Angel of Annihilation]

MadBadger, on 20 May 2017 - 03:39 AM, said:

79 views, 2 replies, but apparently nobody knows how Heat Capacity is currently calculated? Either that or it's so obvious people assume I should already know. I will dig around some more in Google and see what I can find.

You realize that the Developers rarely if ever share these kinds of formulas with the player base right?

Most theorycrafting is done by people who have reverse engineered the system and they may or may not be 100% correct in their calculations.

The reason devs don't usually provide the exact formula is generally two reasons. One, because the player base likes to use things like that to rip the devs a new one and tell them how it should be done and Two, if it is hidden, the devs can tweak it at will.

So the reason your not getting an answer is because only the devs know the formula exactly.

[razenWing]

Viktor Drake, on 23 May 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

You realize that the Developers rarely if ever share these kinds of formulas with the player base right?

Most theorycrafting is done by people who have reverse engineered the system and they may or may not be 100% correct in their calculations.

The reason devs don't usually provide the exact formula is generally two reasons. One, because the player base likes to use things like that to rip the devs a new one and tell them how it should be done and Two, if it is hidden, the devs can tweak it at will.

So the reason your not getting an answer is because only the devs know the formula exactly.

Except smurfy analyze game codes and that's how smurfy's mechlab is born...

[Palfatreos]

-yeah i never builded a SHS so never was in my consideration of using it.
-i understand in the way how they first explicit say engine dissipation and then not be clear cap is external only but it still +2 for internal.
-hmm just googled drop down list never donne it before but it look pretty simple to do

i might clean it up in the future but for now i am more concerned if the outcome value support the game mechanics.

[Scyther]

All right, had some non-combat time to kill so wrote up the test procedure, here goes:

Heat Containment Test:
My original goal was to test whether Heat Containment bonus applied to only the base 30 Heat Capacity of a
mech (as many testers and threads have stated) or the full Base 30 + all Heat Capacity added by Heat Sinks
(as recently stated by a PGI dev).

Test Mech BNC-3M(C), Testing Grounds: Forest Colony, heat neutral map, Base Heat 0% standing still
BNC-3M(C)

20 DHS should give a Max. Heat Capacity of 72.8, with 4 nodes (12%) Heat Containment, no -Heat Gen nodes
or quirks. (Given PGI's stated value of +1.5 Heat Capacity per external DHS in the Dec.2016 patch notes)

30 Base Heat Capacity
20 from Internal DHS(10x2.0)
15 from External DHS(10x1.5)
65 Heat Capacity

x1.12 Heat Containment = 72.8 Max Heat Capacity if Heat Containment applies to Base 30 + Heat Sinks.
x1.12 Heat Containment = 68.6 Max Heat Capacity if Heat Containment only works on Base 30 Heat Cap

Firing 4 PPCs simultaneous = 69.92 Heat with Ghost Heat (mech should not shut down with 72.8 Heat Cap)

Fire all 4 PPCs - Mech shuts down, takes no damage. Wait for powerup, heat->0, repeat 4x. Same result.

Fire all 4 PPCs with Override
1st Shot) Heat bar goes to 100%, mech takes no damage, wait for heat->0
2nd Shot) Heat bar goes to 100%, mech takes internal RL damage, wait for heat->0
3rd Shot) Heat bar goes to 100%, mech takes no damage, wait for heat->0
4th Shot) Heat bar goes to 100%, mech takes internal RT damage

Clearly, the mech is going over 100% heat by just a smidge, enough to cause damage sometimes and not others.
Either Heat Containment doesn't apply to all heat sinks, or mechs shut down and show a 100% bar at 96%
heat (69.92/72.8)... or 4 PPCs create more than 72 heat.

Next Step: Remove 2 MLsr, add 1 DHS.
New Heat Capacity:
30 Base
20 Internal DHS(10x2.0)
16.5 External DHS(11x1.5)
66.5 Heat Threshold

x1.12 Heat Containment = 74.48 if Heat Containment applies to Base 30 + Heat Sinks
x1.12 Heat Containment = 70.1 if Heat Containment only applies to base 30 Heat Cap

Fire All 4 PPCs - Mech heat bars goes to 98%, mech 'Heat Warning Critical' but does not shut down.

If Heat Containment applied to all heat sinks, the bar would go to 93 or 94% depending on rounding. If Heat
Containment applied to only the base 30, it should still shut down or at least show 99-100%.

Lets assume Heat Containment only applies to Base+Internal Engine Heat sinks.
30 Base Heat Cap
20 Internal DHS
6 12% Heat Containment on 30+20
15.5 External DHS(11x1.5)
71.5 Heat Capacity

With a 71.5 Heat Capacity, firing 4 PPCs at 69.92 instant heat gives a 97.8% Heat Bar, matching observed results.

In our first example (10 Internal DHS, 10 External), this formula would give a Heat Capacity of 70, which also
closely matches observed results (mech shuts down from 69.92 heat but generally takes no damage).

Needs testing in other engine/HS configurations, but I am willing to conclude from this that Heat Containment
bonus only applies to the 30 Base Heat Capacity plus up to 10 Internal HS/DHS in a mechs engine.

(Feel free to point out any errors in my numbers, method, or confirming/contradicting tests of your own)

Edited by MadBadger, 23 May 2017 - 12:50 PM.

[Wattila]

Sounds pretty conclusive to me, everyone's test results seem to mirror yours. Time to submit a bug report since Heat Containment isn't working as intended? Could also be miscommunication on Chris' part. O well but that'd also solve that. Good work in any case.

Edited by Wattila, 23 May 2017 - 01:43 PM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

I did a test with Timber Wolf. I had 2 ERL, 2 ERPPC,2 SRM6 and 3 ERM. They do a nominal heat of 20+28+8+18=74. I had 13 external plus 10 internal double heat sinks, with nominal heat capacity of 69.5, and heat dissapation of 3.95.


On temperate map it doesn't overheat on alpha, it gets to about 98% , due to max heat reached when the ERL finish their "spray" in 1.5 seconds. So it might require about 1.5 more heat to be able to overheat. So that's close enough. I mean, close enough to expected result.

So then I gave it "max heat of 15%", without any cool run nodes to boosts it's dissapation and to avoid complications.

So, alpha with temperate map. It reaches 92% heat. I think I saw it few times 91% and few times 92%. Really hard to see to be absolute sure.

To calculate an exact amount of heat generated, I assumed the mech is able to dissapate 3.95*1.5 heat and thus it reaches peak heat of 68.1(rounded). So, 91.5% of X would be 68.1, therefore X is 74.4.

(these are of course a little bit rough figures as the Timber didn't have tonnage or hardpoints to carry enough weapons without duration, to reach heat limit, and I didn't have much mechs with no skill nodes selected anymore)

So very obviously the total heat capasity has not increased by 15%, that would be 80 units.

Do the 15% nodes affect only base heat 30 +engine heat sinks? That would be 1.15 *(30+20) and added with external heat sinks of 13, all in total of 77 units. How much is 91.5% of 77? That is 70.

And that is a little bit too far from X, to sound being correct.

I could found one way it could be correct. If heat dissapation is calculated by each second. So as the duration of ERL is 1.5 seconds, it would dissapate only 1 second of heat with 3.95, and then it would generate 74-3.95 heat at peak. That would be the 70. If the result is okay I'm not perfectly happy how the heat and dissapation is applied so inaccurately by every second. But I suppose for the actual gameplay it doesn't matter much as heat is increaced usually by tens.

I wanted to avoid using ghost heat as an extra possibility of error.



Okay I did another test with Timber Wolf before sending this.
Ghost heat of 3 ERPPC would be 59.64, per Smurfy. With SMR4 and SRM2 along, it overheated. That's 3+1.7 more. With 2xSMR2 it didn't. That's 3.4.

So total 64.34 ->overheat, total 63.04 ->didnt overheat. I had 6 external 10 internal, with the heat contaiment of 15%.

And that is the problem of ghost heat, as I feared.

Because if the 15% heat capasity bonus is applied to base heat plus internal heat sinks, and then the 6 external heat sinks are added without bonus, that is 1.15(30+20)+6*1.5 =66.5.

So it is not supposed to overheat with 3 ERPPC and SRM4 and SRM2 fired together. But it does. It's very close, but it doesn't add up. And, if I check with override, the heat clearly reaches 100%. It just about immediately starts dropping, but, it reaches 100%. So it can't be that it desides to overheat when at 99% or something like that.

Suppose the amount of ghost heat is rounded up? It would then be 60+3+1.7 ->override. That's 64.7. Nope, should not overheat, but it does. What if that number is rounded up again? It's still 65, and the heat capasity should be 66.5. Plus clearly the amount of heat a mech has, has to have more accuracy than pure integer numbers.

I don't know what is wrong but there's clearly something. What I think would be best to test, is some really extreme mech, something with an insane amount of heat sinks. But the problem is, what can you fire enough, without ghost heat and preferrebly without laser duration, to overheat.

[Joey Tankblaster]

I did my own tests with a GRH-5H. A mech which is currenty very strong due to its -10% Heat Gen quirk.

TLDR:
According to my calculations the Heat Containment nodes are superior to Cool Run nodes in a short brawl-like battle. The Cool Run nodes might be better in a long range fight and may generate a decisive advantage over time (in minutes). However, all testings revealed that the exact heat mechanism & heat fighting skills of a mech is different to the my calculations based on the numbers published by PGI.


Long version:

Lets start with the very basics. Base heat capacity of a mech is 30. Heat capacity and heat dissipation rate for DHS is given in the quote and reflects the Dec 2016 patch notes.

Quote

Double Heat Sinks (Inner Sphere)
• External Heat Sink Dissipation Rate increased to 0.15 (from 0.14)
• Engine Heat Sink Dissipation Rate remains at .2
• Heat Capacity increased to 1.5 (from 1.1)

Double Heat Sinks (Clan)
• External Heat Sink Dissipation Rate remains at 0.15
• Engine Heat Sink Dissipation Rate remains at .2
• Heat Capacity increased to 1.5 (from 1.1)
• Component Health reduced to 6.6 (from 10)

I did my calculations and testings on a GHR-5H with an XL325, 4xML, 3xLPL, 18 DHS.

(A) Basics

Let us compare some differently skilled variants:

GHR-5H (1), only with Quirk, no skill nodes
GHR-5H (2), HG
GHR-5H (3), HG+CR
GHR-5H (4), HG+CR+HC

Legend:
HG = -10,5% Heat Generation
CR = +10% Cool run (Heat Dissipation)
HC = +15% Heat Containment

All maxed out.

The GRH-5H comprises:

Base Heat Capacity: 30
Engine DHS: 10 = 20 heat containment and 2 heat/sec dissipation
Ext DHS: 8 = 12 heat containment and 1,2 heat/sec dissipation

For (1) this sums up to:
Heat Containment: 62 heat points
Heat dissipation: 3,2 heat/sec

( Damage and Heat (pre June patch values)

4x ML = 20 damage & 16 heat points
3x LPL = 33 damage & 21 heat points

Full Alpha Damage: 53
(1) Heat by full alpha (+ chassis quirk): 33.3
(2,3,4) Heat by full alpha (+HG): 29,4
(3+4) Heat Dissipation (+CR): 3.52
(1,2,3) Heat Containment: 62

Assuming the Heat Containment skills is based on the base capacity plus all heat sinks:

(4) Heat Containment: 71.3

While doing a full alpha (0.9 duration for the ML, 0.67 for the LPL) the mech builds up heat and in parallel dissipates heat. For the sake of laziness I calculated the following values for a pilot firing every full second a full alpha. Means: I subtracted the 3.2 / 3.52 heat dissipated within this second from the heat build up while firing.

Corrected Heat Generation is then:
(1) Heat by full alpha (+ chassis quirk): 30.4
(2) Heat by full alpha (+HG): 26.5
(3+4) Heat by full alpha (+HG+CR): 26.15

As you can nicely see, the cool run node increases heat dissipation by 0.35 heat points per second. Not much.

(C) Damage output until shutdown

Lets assume you are getting caught with your mech in a 1 vs 1 battle. How often can you alpha and what is your damage output?

Alphas until shutdown:
GHR-5H (1), Quirk: 2.04
GHR-5H (2), HG: 2.34
GHR-5H (3), HG+CR: 2.36
GHR-5H (4), HG+CR+HC: 2.72

Damage until shutdown:
GHR-5H (1), Quirk: 108
GHR-5H (2), HG: 123.8
GHR-5H (3), HG+CR: 125.2
GHR-5H (4), HG+CR+HC: 144.0

Cooling down again:
100% heat until 0% heat:
GHR-5H (1), Quirk: 19.38 sec (62 -> 0)
GHR-5H (3), HG+CR: 17.61 sec (62 -> 0)
GHR-5H (4), HG+CR+HC: 20.26 sec (71,3 ->0)

(D) Summary

Basically your mech becomes cooler with every node invested into heat management. The effect of the cool run nodes is small in short battle with lots of consecutive alphas. The benefit in terms of damage output is also small. The increase in dissipation (+10%) is 3,2 to 3,52 heat per sec. This is on this mech the effect of roughly two additional heat sinks. However, heat containment showed a very nice increase in damage ouput. This is, of course, caused by the assumption that heat containment is based on the base values plus all DHS. Generating less heat is basically the best parameter. Mechs with heat quirks are superior to mechs without (-> Cent-AL, Wolverine-6K, GHR-5H, Jester etc.). So when should a pilot skill Cool Run and when Heat Containment?

A brawl mech needs Heat Containment. Typically the life of a brawl mech is quit short. Push in, alpha strike as much as you can, kill and die. In this short period Cool Run makes almost no sense. Imagine a push with your fellow teammates and a very intense 20 sec fight. The Cool Run gives you a benefit of roughly 6.4 heat points within this window. Second cool shot in that specific situation is of much greater value.
For lights I would also go with Heat Containment. Short intense battles followed by periods in cover in order to cool down.

A long range sniper needs Cool Run. Typically long range battles are fought over minutes, not seconds. Mechs boating ER-LL, ER-PPCs, LLs should go for Cool Run and put less points into Heat Containment. In this specific situation your DPS is probably higher than with only Heat Containment fully skilled.

Of course it is not possible to skill Cool Run nodes without Heat Containment nodes and vice versa. For the sake of demonstrating the effects of these skills I did not include this into my calculations.

(E) Testing grounds

I took a GHR-5H (variant 4) for a ride in the testing grounds on a heat neutral map. According to the calculations above, it should be possible to fire 2 alphas and within the 3rd it would shutdown. Surprisingly I could fire 3 alphas without shutdown, touching 95% heat. The mech didn't move, nor did I use JJs. So no influence here.That indicates that the heat mechanics are different to what is known from the patch notes.

Edited by Joey Tankblaster, 19 June 2017 - 05:04 AM.

[fogsworth]

https://github.com/M...cker/issues/161

[Trev Firestorm]

Cato Phoenix, on 22 May 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

----------------------------------
http://www.sarna.net...Laser_Heat_Sink

Developed in 3051 and first fielded on the Clan Jade Falcon Night Gyr OmniMech, the laser heat sink was a revolutionary technology shift in cooling a BattleMech. Unlike a normal heat sink which uses radiators and heat-conductive fluids to cool a 'Mech, a laser heat sink uses lasers to excite the hot exhaust gasses to a higher-energy state, converting the infrared energy of the gasses to light which is then shunted out of the 'Mech via a series of highly polished surfaces. The resulting light show is highly visible and distinctive, which, while a serious drawback during covert operations, isn't really of much consequence under the traditional tenets of Clan warfare.
-----------------------

100% external heat transfer is just the name of the in game mechanic for laser heat sinks.

So what you are saying here is we should be mad that the Night Gyr doesn't have a glorious shiny glow effect when running hot?

[davoodoo]

sycocys, on 19 May 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

I bet they have 0 delay in cooling, so you fire and instantly start to cool x amount and it probably starts with a round number to jump the cooling off.

They do have 0 delay in cooling, ill say more, my mad3r got 3 rac2(i barely play dont judge) if 2 jam then it still cools down while firing 3rd.