70 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

It's time to take this from a very pretty set of hexagons laid out in a useless fashion and put the categories into their own drop-down menu's. Each similar node type is then grouped and can be purchased in order, without anything interfering. The cost of the lower nodes should be lower than the average, now, and then rise in cost as you go along. It is, presently, impossible to reach the bottom of a node tree, and have anything be useful; that's not the way it should be. 91 nodes total... fine... allow people to spec the way they want... it's going to be min/max, regardless, and what someone max's on they get hit for the min's. This is NOT hard to understand.

It's time to cut the BS, PGI. Pretty does not a good story make.

EDIT: Another way you could do this, PGI, is to allow lower nodes that have already been purchased to be shut off, without affecting higher nodes, or just automatically turn off old nodes when higher ones are purchased, allowing for the total percentage to be effective, anyway. Finally, what else you could do is just allow people to spec the hell out of their 'Mechs, eventually being able to earn and purchase all 237 nodes.

Edited by Threat Doc, 19 May 2017 - 03:05 PM.

[Kusunoki Masashige]

Eternal Rage, on 19 May 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

loving it!
way better than before
finally my mechs are specialized in what they should be able to do!

and People who cant make their favorite mechs feel the same like before.. wtf? mechs are even better now across the board

dont get me even started on GOD TIER BLR-2C..

yah your full of crap kid mechs are jacked now

[justcallme A S H]

HooverGKMMC, on 19 May 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

re: "Simplification of tree by reduction in number of nodes" - I think the number of nodes is fine, but I really think that the "firepower" tree should be split out, with "heat management" either being it's own tree, or being simplified under "operations" and there being separate trees for energy, missile, and ballistic weapons.

The number of nodes is not, fine. This is where the majority of peoples disdain for S/T comes from.

The amount of time spent in a mechlab is absurd. You essentially now need 3 of the same chassis for: QP / FP / Comp

You cannot level "on the fly" like you could before. Especially for comp which demands very different builds/skills and aims. Before you could drop between matches, rebuild a mech in 60 seconds and get back into it. No delay, no worries. That is now simply impossible.

Same for FP/QP - I could edit my entire deck in 2-3mins tops. That just isn't the case anymore.

It is the time sink/consumption due to a totally convoluted number of nodes (~20% of which each build, you don't even want).

[Nightmare1]

justcallme A S H, on 19 May 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

The number of nodes is not, fine. This is where the majority of peoples disdain for S/T comes from.

I think the number is fine.

justcallme A S H, on 19 May 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

The amount of time spent in a mechlab is absurd. You essentially now need 3 of the same chassis for: QP / FP / Comp

This makes no sense. The Mechlab doesn't require any more time than it did previously. The Skill Tree requires a little time to get used to it, but, once you are acclimated, take no longer than the old tree. I can skill out a Mech in under 5 minutes.

As for chassis, you're nuts. You don't need to buy a chassis for each game mode. Just run the same one. Faction Play has a lot of overlap with Quick Play now, so a Mech that works well in one will work pretty well in the other as well. There's no reason for you to have to re-skill in between modes or buy a Mech for each one.

justcallme A S H, on 19 May 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

You cannot level "on the fly" like you could before. Especially for comp which demands very different builds/skills and aims. Before you could drop between matches, rebuild a mech in 60 seconds and get back into it. No delay, no worries. That is now simply impossible.

You're confusing building a Mech and leveling a Mech.

You could not "level on the fly" before because you had to drop out of the Lobby, go to the Skill Tab, click it, wait for the Mechlab to load, filter the Mechs to find the one you wanted to level, click it, wait for the Mechlab to load, click the skill you wanted, wait for the Mechlab to load, click the confirmation, wait for the Mechlab to load, etc. It was time consuming and an annoyance. Now you click rapidly and snatch up all your nodes, hit the "Apply" button and a single confirmation, and you're finished. I think it actually runs smoother now since you don't have all the stupid load times.

As for kitting a Mech in between matches, you can still do that just as easily.

justcallme A S H, on 19 May 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

Same for FP/QP - I could edit my entire deck in 2-3mins tops. That just isn't the case anymore.

No, you can still do it. Nothing about editing your Deck has changed. All the filters and such should still be in place.

...Or are you talking about editing the Mechs that comprise your deck?

justcallme A S H, on 19 May 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

It is the time sink/consumption due to a totally convoluted number of nodes (~20% of which each build, you don't even want).

Once I finish uploading my training video for the New Skill Tree, I will post it for you. It will help you get better at this and accept the new Skill Tree.

You're welcome in advance.

[David Sumner]

Nightmare1, on 19 May 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

...
No, the nodes are pretty clear with their tool tips. I mean, 10% fall protection is 10% fall protection. A 1% range bonus is a 1% range bonus. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to estimate how those percentages will impact your Mech.
...

Really? Here's a simple question for you.
Is that 10% absolute or relative?

That is, does your fall damage go 100%, 90%, 80%,70%
or does it go 100%, 90%,81%, 72%

How valuable is 10% fall damage relative to 1.5% cooldown?

[Nightmare1]

David Sumner, on 19 May 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:

Really? Here's a simple question for you.
Is that 10% absolute or relative?

That is, does your fall damage go 100%, 90%, 80%,70%
or does it go 100%, 90%,81%, 72%

It's absolute. PGI has historically dealt in absolute values like that. A long time back (years ago), there was a big commotion over it and PGI made a large info release to specifically address the issue, and basically said that, to make things simple, they would just deal with absolutes taken from the baselines.

David Sumner, on 19 May 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:

How valuable is 10% fall damage relative to 1.5% cooldown?

That's up to you to decide. To each his own; that's the beauty of full customization!

Personally, I prefer the 1.5% cooldown.

[Koda Shy]

i dont like it.... my purpose of playing is gone without the old system...i know that is weird but..its how i played..i lvled 3 or more and moved on..then played my fav of them for other stuff......

i really just wanna know what that triangle is tell me when it says one or more nodes dont apply......... ok...well tell me which ones so i can at least avoid them..jeez....

but its crap.....this could have been done better with the old system....just adding more options and only allowing to choose a certain number...... like choose 8 of 15 in t1 choose 4 of 8 in tier 2 and 1 of 2 in mastery

[DaManiac]

The point which you guys are debating about are kinda moot, people are voting to leave because overall, the game is LESS FUN.

1.5% cool down nodes vs 4 mill Cbills to respec vs 91/231 total nodes are all part of the problem, but we need to look at a higher level, some are happy, but as can be seen so far most the others are not.

If 50% of the player base drops away, good luck with the remaining hardliners on supporting MWO to last another 4 more years.

[_ Manual _]

Decided to read the forums recently after this update, because I was getting a little ticked at the new system and thought it might just have been me. Glad to see it's not. I don't "hate" the skill tree, but I think there seems to be some fundamental problems with it's implementation (my opinion pls)

I know a few people love it, which is good, but please don't stoop to minimizing our position and opinions. Saying our opinions are skewed and biased, then presenting your opinions (yes, those are opinions) as seeming "facts" is not going to convince people who think the new system needs a lot of work. Civil arguments are of course expected.



Old story (ad lib): "A man walks into town, and sees a lot of people doing things that don't make sense. After several hours, he realizes that just about everyone in that town is either stupid or crazy."
.... it could indeed be that the man is that sane/smart, or ....

[Erik Ouzbel]

I'm loving it right now. I'm sure it will get nerfed eventually, but the armor quirks on mediums and heavies, with the tree make them a lot better. And Novas could always use more ways to dissipate heat while firing faster. It also punishes people who wander into the open instead of using cover.

Could the trees be done better? Yes, but it's a start. One thing that might help people with all the mechs would be to save a skill tree layout, and allow it to be applied to others that you own.

[Raimir]

I like it. But as an assault mech player mainly (and Lone wolf ) i feel for some reason that mechs are weaker, less maneuverable. People are using UAV less because they do not want spend SP in the tree for an extra module slot and pay 40k?

From all the weapons i feel to be LRMs again superpowerfull as in a few year ago. For me it is now very difficult to get 500+ dmg per match as before. After very long time since (since DWF nerfing) i took DWF-ultraviolet to test it and put ALL the SP into Agility and Armor tree. It is really really bad when compared to Kodiak for example. Maybe some revision of all nerfed mechs would be fine in the future.

To all people/player:
Before blaming JUST another balancing system which is necessary (and always will be !!!). Think at first how you would solve such complex task. As a mathematician developing in C++ i can imagine what everything is beyond that job. As a huge fan of the past Mechwarrior games i'm happy i can play that again on simulation level not an arcade sh* game. New system will only need a time.

[Horseman]

Raimir, on 19 May 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

Before blaming JUST another balancing system which is necessary (and always will be !!!). Think at first how you would solve such complex task.

For starters, by considering the usability and user experience just as important as mechanical balance. Paying customers are what keeps the light on.

[HooverGKMMC]

justcallme A S H, on 19 May 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

The number of nodes is not, fine. This is where the majority of peoples disdain for S/T comes from.

That's your opinion. Mine is different. The whole point of a poll is aggregating different people's opinions.

[HooverGKMMC]

DaManiac, on 19 May 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

The point which you guys are debating about are kinda moot, people are voting to leave because overall, the game is LESS FUN.

I'm having just as much fun as I was before. Possibly even more. I can "master" mechs without having to grind variants that I don't want and don't fit my play styles. I can tweak my mechs for their (and my) strengths and roles that I like playing them in.

Do I like all the changes? Nope.
Will I adapt to them? Either I will, or I won't and will move on to something else.

The whole thing is simple, really - I play to have fun. To relax. For entertainment. When the time comes that the game no longer accomplishes those things for me, then I'll move on and find a new game. The Circle of Gamer Life. It is what it is, and I see no reason for angst over it.

This is a truth in the world. Things change, you adapt or get left behind. And given that change is inevitable, how you react to it is 100% up to you. You're only a victim if you choose to be.

[SgtStank]

Although I understand the idea behind having to rethink the role you want your mechs to play, I don't get the logic behind some of the decisions. The biggest oddity to me is the revaluing of Cool Run. It was by all means the FIRST available skill previously, both by order and XP requirements, but now it's buried under multiple branches populated with skills I never had and don't need or want. It takes 17 Skill Points to unlock all of Cool Run while you can unlock all of BOTH Radar Deprivation and Seismic Sensor for 19 Skill Points. Secondly, it kind of sucks that Clan mechs get to keep mobility quirks that are tied to OmniPods when they were all wiped from IS mechs. There are a number of mechs I purchased ultimately because of their Accel/Decel Rate or Yaw Speed/Angle bonuses. The mech I had the most fun with and played in Quick Play all the time, the Cicada CDA-2A(C), just isn't the same now as the skill tree only allows a max 24.5% bonus to Accel/Decel Rates. These kind of changes have definitely had an impact on the level of fun in the game if nothing else.

LRM's feel unbalanced even more/again and 10-15 Air Strikes/Artillery Strikes from one side in a match can get a bit frustrating.

Edited by SgtStank, 20 May 2017 - 05:23 AM.

[Hexalit Rail Cannon]

Agent 0range, on 19 May 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

the skill tree and engine decouple is great it changes the game and make more mechs viable rather than a tiny pool of mechs, Add in energy rebalance and Civil war and people have plenty of new stuff to play with to enjoy making mechs,

Most complaint are I cant make my mech like it was, but no one can! instead they should be looking to see if it is better or worse than similiar weight mechs and how they can use the skill tree to improve on its specific role in a team.

speak for your self my splatbacker is 3x more deadly and i was able to REMAKE my build and then add even more derp to it
this patch more then enhances some builds and it is UBER easy as **** to remake some builds

my UV LB60X was remade perfectly and then better with extra SP

Speak For Yourself

[ArmageddonKnight]

Im only unhappy wth it becouse it failed to deliver on the TTK increase PGI original said was a goal.

I've speced out my mechs and they play ok, some slightly worse others slightly better.

BUT

Even fully tanked out i feel just as squishty in a 100tonn mech than prior to the patch. Meanign the Alpha damage on the field hasnt gone down and the buffs to defence have made little difference.

PGI i strongly sugest implimenting a simple fix to the OTT damage thats currently in the game. Lower heat capacity. Doign so will lower the max alpah strike people can fire, thus increasing TTK in this alpha strike meta bassed game.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 20 May 2017 - 05:34 AM.

[HooverGKMMC]

ArmageddonKnight, on 20 May 2017 - 05:34 AM, said:

Im only unhappy wth it becouse it failed to deliver on the TTK increase PGI original said was a goal.

That's an interesting point. I'm reading some of the Battletech books, and they describe that even in a 1-on-1 fight, mechs could pound away at each other for hours until one made a tactical error that the other was able to capitalize on.

Obviously that wouldn't be very playable in a game - but it sure seems like you shouldn't be able to take out a 100 ton assult in less than a minute lol

[ArmageddonKnight]

HooverGKMMC, on 20 May 2017 - 05:40 AM, said:

That's an interesting point. I'm reading some of the Battletech books, and they describe that even in a 1-on-1 fight, mechs could pound away at each other for hours until one made a tactical error that the other was able to capitalize on.

Obviously that wouldn't be very playable in a game - but it sure seems like you shouldn't be able to take out a 100 ton assult in less than a minute lol

Well in a 1v1 fight in the same weight class, the heavier the class the shorter the fight. A light fight can last minutes, a medium fight a minute, a heavy fight under a minute, assault fights lasts seconds.

In a Team fight, a 100 ton mech can be melted in under 3 seconds. Light mechs last longer in these scenerios due to their agility defence.

And tbh this problem is down to the fact we have way to much heat capacity, allowing for high alpha strike damage. The convoluted ghost heat system was introduced specificaly to combat alpha strikes like the old 6 PPC stalker. But players just worked around it by mixing up high dmg weapons, like dual ac10 dual ppc, or dual guess dual PPC etc, etc ,etc. Ofcourse ghost heat also fk'ed up dps builds unintentionaly and it took over a year to fix.

So PGI has shown the interest in lowering Alpah damage in the past, they just seem to have given up. For what ever reason they have also neglected to just use simple solutions.
They increased heat cap and cooling efficency to counter the fact they halved (lowered) CD on weapons vs TT stats to speed up gameplay, they also increased armor to help compensate.
But it backfired, they accounted for increased DPS from the lower CD by increasing heat cap and cooling so the lower CD's could be used, and increasing armor so players survived, but failed to realize the increased heat cap allows for much higher alpha strikes that completly overpower the increased Armor, opening the doors for years of Alpha strike peak and hide meta that STILL hasnt been blanced vs DPS builds.

Dont get me wrong, Alpha strikes, and the peak and hide tactics have a place, its just way to over powered vs other tactics in this game.

if Any1 cares ot look, try to find old Beta footage of MWO from back when DHS wasnt in the game, when heat cap and cooling efficnecy was much lower. The fights lasted much longer as each player had less potential for alpha and burst damage, there was also only 8 players per team, lowering the max team damage. it was great fun, i actual enjoyed Beta MWO more than live.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 20 May 2017 - 06:19 AM.

[Todd Marshall]

Nightmare1, on 19 May 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

Even then, allowing for 10 or 15 wasted nodes, you would still spend vastly less time and resources than under the old tree. Even if you doubled it to 182 nodes, you would still only be using up 2/3 of the time if you were grinding it.

You had 3 Mastered mechs in the end which you could module and change loadouts on a whim. Now you only have one mech that you keep spending time and xp and cbills on. The new system is actually a loss in value IMO.