70 replies to this topic

[Deffias]

DaManiac, on 19 May 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

I'm sure many people like me, followed the skill tree development and were encouraging of the concept, however after implementation, we realised that the overall fun level of the game has taken a hit. I personally believe this could be a make or break for MWO. I would like to continue with MWO, however I will not support the game in it's current state.

This poll hopefully will show what us Mechwarriors really think of it and hopefully the devs will take note.

Please do not crow this post will debates and long opinions, also please spread the word and get people who you meet in game to vote on this here.

I like that someone took the initiative to make a poll. However, it's incredibly biased against the new skill system. For example: Your first section is well put together:
Are you happy with current state of MWO with the Skill Tree modification?

• Yes, very happy
  
• Yes, happy
  
• Indifferent
  
• No, unhappy.
  
• No, very unhappy.

Allows anyone to speak on all accounts, because you included the whole gambit of possibilities from "YES" to "NO" and everything in between.


What do you think of the current implementation?

• It was what MWO needed, however minor changes may be required.

This infers that you assume that even those who like it, they still think something is wrong with it. Is it not possible that some players enjoy it in its current state? I think a well balanced, unbiased poll is a great idea, but some of your wording is incredibly skewed against the possibility of anyone answering it in a completely positive way.


My suggestion would be to re-word this to "It was what MWO needed.", because the following option covers the "i like it, but needs work" opinion just as well given its current wording:

• It's a step in the right direction, but quite a few more changes need to be made.

The last section needs be re-worded, it currently reads:

Assuming the situation is salavageable what should be done?

Again, you imply that all players feel there's something vitally wrong with the skill system. A more unbiased suggestion would be to re-word this as, "Do you have a suggestion for improvement?". The options included could remain the same, because I believe a lot of these have been seen on the forums - additionally, please include the option for someone to put "N/A, I like the system in its current state", because again, is it not entirely possible someone agrees and enjoys the current skill tree?



Again, thanks for taking the time to develop a poll, I just feel some of the wording is negatively suggestive and could better serve the community if it was more unbiased.

Edited by Deffias, 20 May 2017 - 07:25 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Todd Marshall, on 20 May 2017 - 07:02 AM, said:

You had 3 Mastered mechs in the end which you could module and change loadouts on a whim. Now you only have one mech that you keep spending time and xp and cbills on. The new system is actually a loss in value IMO.

That's not entirely accurate.

First of all, most people sold off the extra two variants, especially new players, to make room in their Mechbays for different chassis. As a result, people didn't necessarily have 3 Mastered Mechs when it was all said and done, particularly if they sold them off after only completing the requisite Basic'ing of their two mandatory spares.

Secondly, while you could modules and change on a whim, the modules themselves were very expensive and time consuming to acquire. A single Mech Module could cost 15,000 GXP (600 MC if converting) and 6 million C-bills (about 5 hours of gameplay just for the C-bills). A single Mech Module cost 1.5x more than Mastering an entire Mech under the new tree (~4 million C-bills to Master now). When you consider the fact that most Mechs, particularly IS ones, had 2x Mech Modules, 2x Weapon Modules, and a third module of one or the other (Mastered Module Slot), then you can very quickly see where this would become prohibitively expensive (between 21 million C-bills and 24 million C-bills for all those modules). Even assuming that you built up a stock of 30 modules that you then shared across 100 Mechs, you would still be paying through the nose, and it would take you many, many hours to accumulate those modules.

The new tree is much more economical. About the only way it isn't, is if you decide to unlock every single node on it. Nobody would be that foolish though, I hope!

Edited by Nightmare1, 20 May 2017 - 07:32 AM.

[Todd Marshall]

Nightmare1, on 20 May 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

Nobody would be that foolish though, I hope!

With the fiddling PGI are prone to be doing and already have announced, it's not about being foolish.

Edit: Oh there's new tech on the horizon, that will require tuning as well.

Edited by Todd Marshall, 20 May 2017 - 07:45 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Todd Marshall, on 20 May 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

With the fiddling PGI are prone to be doing and already have announced, it's not about being foolish.

Edit: Oh there's new tech on the horizon, that will require tuning as well.

Well, PGI has already announced the upcoming changes. Smart pilots won't run out and spend hours re-Mastering all their Mechs immediately. They'll re-Master the ones that they use a lot, and then keep the bulk in reserve until Civil War hits. That's the smart move.

Example: I own 145 Mechs. It would take me some time to re-Master them all, and why would I with the new changes coming with Civil War? With the new Tech and Skills, I'll probably re-kit a lot of my Mechs. It's better to save my resources and wait. In the meantime, I will re-Master about 15 of my Mechs for MRBC and CW purposes. The rest I'll place on standby.

Edited by Nightmare1, 20 May 2017 - 07:47 AM.

[Todd Marshall]

Nightmare1, on 20 May 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

Well, PGI has already announced the upcoming changes. Smart pilots won't run out and spend hours re-Mastering all their Mechs immediately. They'll re-Master the ones that they use a lot, and then keep the bulk in reserve until Civil War hits. That's the smart move.

Example: I own 145 Mechs. It would take me some time to re-Master them all, and why would I with the new changes coming with Civil War? With the new Tech and Skills, I'll probably re-kit a lot of my Mechs. It's better to save my resources and wait. In the meantime, I will re-Master about 15 of my Mechs for MRBC and CW purposes. The rest I'll place on standby.

I'm kinda sick of having to outsmart bad design decisions.

Have come to the same conclusions as you though. Meanwhile, I'm kinda forced to skill mechs, since I'm involved in this MRBC season.

Edited by Todd Marshall, 20 May 2017 - 07:55 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

HooverGKMMC, on 20 May 2017 - 04:59 AM, said:

That's your opinion. Mine is different. The whole point of a poll is aggregating different people's opinions.

No, if you look over all the threads, all the people posting - you'll see the majority feels this way.

Hence why simplification (node reduction), is one of the highest of the 5 in it's section. It's not like that for "no reason" because it's "just my opinion".

[Taxxian]

A hundred people voting out of many thousands is not very convicing.

Also its not a hundred random people, its a hundred people that came to the forums to tell something...

And again a biased poll... why do I have to choose one of the answers for question 3? I want none of them!

This is biased and not representative...

Nuff said...

[justcallme A S H]

Nightmare1, on 19 May 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

I think the number is fine.

Good for you. Poll suggests thus far, people don't share your view.

Nightmare1, on 19 May 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

This makes no sense. The Mechlab doesn't require any more time than it did previously. The Skill Tree requires a little time to get used to it, but, once you are acclimated, take no longer than the old tree. I can skill out a Mech in under 5 minutes.

As for chassis, you're nuts. You don't need to buy a chassis for each game mode. Just run the same one. Faction Play has a lot of overlap with Quick Play now, so a Mech that works well in one will work pretty well in the other as well. There's no reason for you to have to re-skill in between modes or buy a Mech for each one.

Nightmare1, on 19 May 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

As for kitting a Mech in between matches, you can still do that just as easily.

It is not as fast. That is a simple fact that is indisputable.

Previous system it could be mechlab/moduled in less than 60 seconds. You've said ~5mins. That is a ~400% increase in time. Great improvement.

You do need to buy multi chassis. If you don't want to now sit in a mechlab AND skill tree rebuilding and changing builds to suit the modes each time you get in/out of them - which you do need to do if you actually want to do well. At potentially 5mins per mech, you're talking upwards of 20mins potentially just mode/game switching. Previously it was a max 5min affair.

If you can't see how silly that is, well, you quite simply don't understand the topic at hand.

Nightmare1, on 19 May 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Once I finish uploading my training video for the New Skill Tree, I will post it for you. It will help you get better at this and accept the new Skill Tree.

I don't need a T5 user training video. I'm well aware of how S/T works, hence I understand it's great failings. As do most half decent players.

Taxxian, on 20 May 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

A hundred people voting out of many thousands is not very convicing.

Also its not a hundred random people, its a hundred people that came to the forums to tell something...

And again a biased poll... why do I have to choose one of the answers for question 3? I want none of them!

This is biased and not representative...

Nuff said...

Most people won't look here TBH.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 20 May 2017 - 08:17 AM.

[Popup Camper]

I have uninstalled the game but just thought I would check to see if it had been reverted back yet. But I did buy a couple new games and maybe I'll play this again sometimes but not until this changes... CYA

[Horseman]

Nightmare1, on 20 May 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

First of all, most people sold off the extra two variants, especially new players, to make room in their Mechbays for different chassis. As a result, people didn't necessarily have 3 Mastered Mechs when it was all said and done, particularly if they sold them off after only completing the requisite Basic'ing of their two mandatory spares.
The new tree is much more economical.

Whether the new pricing scheme is more or less economical for a given player depends entirely on their mech purchasing and mastering habits.
Removal of the rule of three is one thing, removal of modules is another, how it compares to the increase of costs for mastering a single individual mech is another yet.

For players who were only after one specific variant of a chassis at any given time and considered the other two a chore, the removal of the rule of three is beneficial despite the increased cost of mastering a mech.

For players who mastered multiple variants of a chassis and kept them for the long run, the increased cost of mastering a single chassis greatly increases the grind.

The same goes for modules:

For players who kept a large number of mechs with full complement of modules, the new system decreased the grind.

For players who juggled modules (aka "cheapskates") and only had several mechs ready to run at a time, the new system increased the grind.

Edited by Horseman, 20 May 2017 - 08:52 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Todd Marshall, on 20 May 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

I'm kinda sick of having to outsmart bad design decisions.

Have come to the same conclusions as you though. Meanwhile, I'm kinda forced to skill mechs, since I'm involved in this MRBC season.

At least they warned us about the coming changes. In the past, they would have just made them with no warning at all.

I guess that's a small step in the right direction, lol.

[Nightmare1]

justcallme A S H, on 20 May 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Good for you. Poll suggests thus far, people don't share your view.

The poll is meaningless unless it can get a few thousand people on it. Stats say that 17,000 people participated in Tukayyid. A poll with a scant 100 participants, a lot of them probably smurf accounts owned by griefers, isn't going to carry any real weight. Even assuming that there are no Smurf and every vote is unique, that's only about a half of a percent of the actual player base.

justcallme A S H, on 20 May 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

It is not as fast. That is a simple fact that is indisputable.

Actually, it is just as fast to reskill. I know because I've done it.

justcallme A S H, on 20 May 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Previous system it could be mechlab/moduled in less than 60 seconds. You've said ~5mins. That is a ~400% increase in time. Great improvement.

Not true. Just the load times in the Mechlab alone stretched it out over the 60 second mark. I also said less than 5 minutes, with 5 minutes being the max if you really drag your feet.

When I Mastered a Mech under the old system, it went like this:

Click "Skill Tree"
*Loads*
Filter Mechs
*Loads*
Click on Mech
*Loads*
Click on Unlock Basic Skill
*Loads*
Click on Confirmation
*Loads*
Repeat 12 more times.

Under the new tree:
Click Mech
*Loads*
Click Skills
*Loads*
Click 91 times rapidly
Click Apply Changes
*Loads*
Click Confirmation
*Loads*
Done.

The old tree took several minutes to master a Mech because the UI had to load every single time you made a click. In this one, in only loads when you enter and exit. How long it takes you to Master a Mech depends solely on how fast you click your mouse.

Personally, since I already know what I want to do with each Mech, I just click rapidly and finish in a minute or two. I can do it just as fast as I could under the old system. If you can't, then it's because you're slow, you don't know what you're doing, or you had abnormally fast load times in the old system.

justcallme A S H, on 20 May 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

You do need to buy multi chassis. If you don't want to now sit in a mechlab AND skill tree rebuilding and changing builds to suit the modes each time you get in/out of them - which you do need to do if you actually want to do well. At potentially 5mins per mech, you're talking upwards of 20mins potentially just mode/game switching. Previously it was a max 5min affair.

No, you really don't need to buy multiples of the same chassis.

If I'm going to play FW, then I will take certain Mechs. If I decide to do Quick Play, then those Mechs easily perform well in Quick Play. There's zero need to tinker in between mode swapping.

Case in point, the same Kit Fox that I run in Quick Play does equally well in Faction Play. I can nail 1,000 damage with it in either mode. Why would I waste time rekitting it? Find what you like and run it until you don't like it anymore. Anyone who rekits every time they exist a match really doesn't know what they're doing.

justcallme A S H, on 20 May 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

If you can't see how silly that is, well, you quite simply don't understand the topic at hand.

This applies more to you than me at this point.

justcallme A S H, on 20 May 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

I don't need a T5 user training video. I'm well aware of how S/T works, hence I understand it's great failings. As do most half decent players.

Oooh! Someone's butthurt now.

Some people don't know "good" if it walked up and slapped them.

justcallme A S H, on 20 May 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Most people won't look here TBH.

Then what's the point of this poll?

[justcallme A S H]

It is just not as fast, that is absolute rubbish mate.

Not going to bother replying to someone that is just making **** up.

[HooverGKMMC]

justcallme A S H, on 20 May 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

No, if you look over all the threads, all the people posting - you'll see the majority feels this way.

Well, first off let's address the logical fallacy here.

Most players in MMO-type games don't bother with the forums. Of those who do, people with complaints are far more likely to post than the ones that are satisfied.

With that out of the way, your argument doesn't invalidate what I said. You have your opinion, I have mine. You're dissatisfied, and I respect that. Respect that I am not.

Edited by HooverGKMMC, 20 May 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Horseman, on 20 May 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

Whether the new pricing scheme is more or less economical for a given player depends entirely on their mech purchasing and mastering habits.

This is true.

Horseman, on 20 May 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

Removal of the rule of three is one thing, removal of modules is another, how it compares to the increase of costs for mastering a single individual mech is another yet.

It all ties together because it all adds to the total cost of fully Mastering and outfitting a Mech.

Horseman, on 20 May 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

For players who were only after one specific variant of a chassis at any given time and considered the other two a chore, the removal of the rule of three is beneficial despite the increased cost of mastering a mech.

This is true.

Horseman, on 20 May 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

For players who mastered multiple variants of a chassis and kept them for the long run, the increased cost of mastering a single chassis greatly increases the grind.

Eh, not really.

Reposted:

New system:
C-Bills required to Master 91 nodes = 4,095,000
XP required to Master 91 nodes = 72,800

Old system:
XP required to Master 13 nodes = 57,250
XP required to Basic two other Mechs so that you could Master one Mech = 28,500
Total XP required to Master one Mech = 85,750
MC required if using all GXP = 3,430 (if not done on a GXP Conversion sale)
C-bills required for modules for one Mech (Note: This does not include the cost of purchasing three Mechs for leveling purposes) = Between 21 - 24 million C-bills

Modules can be re-used. Let's assume 30 modules per 100 Mechs. We'll also assume the smaller figure of 21 million to be conservative.

That means it's (21 million C-bills x 30 Mechs)/100 Mechs = 6.3 million C-bills/Mech

Total cost to Master one Mech under the old system:
Total XP required to Master one Mech = 85,750
C-bills required for modules = 6.3 million
C-bills required for all three Mechs = 36 million (assuming 12 million per Mech
Total C-bill cost for one Mech's Mastery = 42.3 million

Now, let's assume someone like you decides to go nuts and buy out every node (237 total) on the Skill Tree. That would be a grand total of 189,000 XP and 10,665,000 C-bills. That would require 10 hours of grinding for the C-bills and 20 hours of grinding for the XP. Since you can earn C-bills and XP concurrently, that means that 20 hours would be the max time.

Under the old system, you would need 40 hours to grind the C-bills and 9 hours to grind the XP. Since you can earn C-bills and XP concurrently, that means that 40 hours would be the max time.

Hence, even if you purchased all 237 nodes, it's still requires only half the time to actually grind the resources than it does to purchase three Mechs, Master one, Basic two, buy 2 Mech Modules, and buy 3 Weapon Modules that it did under the old system.

Horseman, on 20 May 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

The same goes for modules:

For players who kept a large number of mechs with full complement of modules, the new system decreased the grind.

For players who juggled modules (aka "cheapskates") and only had several mechs ready to run at a time, the new system increased the grind.

I am one of the cheapskates, and I really like this new system.

justcallme A S H, on 20 May 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

It is just not as fast, that is absolute rubbish mate.

Not going to bother replying to someone that is just making **** up.

It's not rubbish, but griefers like you hate being wrong.

HooverGKMMC, on 20 May 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

Well, first off let's address the logical fallacy here.

Most players in MMO-type games don't bother with the forums. Of those who do, people with complaints are far more likely to post than the ones that are satisfied.

With that out of the way, your argument doesn't invalidate what I said. You have your opinion, I have mine. You're dissatisfied, and I respect that. Respect that I am not.

Well said.

[Horseman]

Nightmare1, on 20 May 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

Modules can be re-used. Let's assume 30 modules per 100 Mechs. We'll also assume the smaller figure of 21 million to be conservative.

That means it's (21 million C-bills x 30 Mechs)/100 Mechs = 6.3 million C-bills/Mech

That figure is rather grossly inflated - it's based on assumption you'd have 30 mechs fully kitted out to go at every single time, while much less than that was really needed (as you said yourself elsewhere, only ~10).

Using that figure as a basis, we get 210 million C-Bills - or 2.1 per chassis.

[Nightmare1]

Horseman, on 20 May 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

That figure is rather grossly inflated - it's based on assumption you'd have 30 mechs fully kitted out to go at every single time, while much less than that was really needed (as you said yourself elsewhere, only ~10).

Using that figure as a basis, we get 210 million C-Bills - or 2.1 per chassis.

I only have 10 kitted out at once, yes, but I actually had enough modules to fully kit out nearly 40 Mechs. I just kept them in my inventory so that I wouldn't have to play the module mini-game.

As for how many modules a person owns, most of the people I've spoken with over the years have enough for 10 Mechs as their minimum, while many have enough modules for every Mech. In my experience, 30 modules per 100 Mechs is a rough average for the frugal MechWarrior though.

Even if we cut the number in half, you wind up with 3.15 million C-bills per Mech, which is less than a million short of a fully Mastered Mech in the new Skill Tree. The new numbers would be:

Total cost to Master one Mech under the old system:
Total XP required to Master one Mech = 85,750
C-bills required for modules = 3.15 million
C-bills required for all three Mechs = 36 million (assuming 12 million per Mech
Total C-bill cost for one Mech's Mastery = 39.15 million

You would still need 9 hours for the XP, while the time to grind the C-bills would drop to 37 hours. Even allowing for this, it's still only 3 hours short of needing 2x the amount of time as the New Skill Tree.

If we use the minimum which you like at 2.1 million C-bills per chassis, the overall hours only drop by one down to 36 total. That's still 1.8x the amount of time needed for the New Skill Tree if you decided to purchase every single node.

Edited by Nightmare1, 20 May 2017 - 10:42 AM.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Nightmare1, on 20 May 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

The poll is meaningless unless it can get a few thousand people on it. Stats say that 17,000 people participated in Tukayyid. A poll with a scant 100 participants, a lot of them probably smurf accounts owned by griefers, isn't going to carry any real weight. Even assuming that there are no Smurf and every vote is unique, that's only about a half of a percent of the actual player base.



Actually, it is just as fast to reskill. I know because I've done it.



Not true. Just the load times in the Mechlab alone stretched it out over the 60 second mark. I also said less than 5 minutes, with 5 minutes being the max if you really drag your feet.

When I Mastered a Mech under the old system, it went like this:

Click "Skill Tree"
*Loads*
Filter Mechs
*Loads*
Click on Mech
*Loads*
Click on Unlock Basic Skill
*Loads*
Click on Confirmation
*Loads*
Repeat 12 more times.

Under the new tree:
Click Mech
*Loads*
Click Skills
*Loads*
Click 91 times rapidly
Click Apply Changes
*Loads*
Click Confirmation
*Loads*
Done.

The old tree took several minutes to master a Mech because the UI had to load every single time you made a click. In this one, in only loads when you enter and exit. How long it takes you to Master a Mech depends solely on how fast you click your mouse.

Personally, since I already know what I want to do with each Mech, I just click rapidly and finish in a minute or two. I can do it just as fast as I could under the old system. If you can't, then it's because you're slow, you don't know what you're doing, or you had abnormally fast load times in the old system.



No, you really don't need to buy multiples of the same chassis.

If I'm going to play FW, then I will take certain Mechs. If I decide to do Quick Play, then those Mechs easily perform well in Quick Play. There's zero need to tinker in between mode swapping.

Case in point, the same Kit Fox that I run in Quick Play does equally well in Faction Play. I can nail 1,000 damage with it in either mode. Why would I waste time rekitting it? Find what you like and run it until you don't like it anymore. Anyone who rekits every time they exist a match really doesn't know what they're doing.




This applies more to you than me at this point.



Oooh! Someone's butthurt now.

Some people don't know "good" if it walked up and slapped them.



Then what's the point of this poll?

Well, there is a poll on the german forums with almsot 500 participants - Thats about 10% of the german population makeing it somewhat representative of this games german population. Same result as this poll. So ze germans arent happy with this.... you know what will happen next....

[Nightmare1]

Cara Carcass, on 20 May 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

So ze germans arent happy with this.... you know what will happen next....

They'll invade?

[Pixel Hunter]

PGI needs to post a SOLID time frame to fix IS/clan balance. breaking the quirk system is a HUGE blow to IS mechs and there seems to be only the "soon the new tech will fix it" story here on the forums.

they broke a lot of IS mechs and did it just because they could, and claim to fix it later. this in unacceptable