41 replies to this topic

[Antares102]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 July 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

Speed Tweak back to 10% pls.

+1, also increased mobility effects

[Gas Guzzler]

I usually end up taking about half of it, getting most of the armor nodes and a few structure. If I know my build is stretching the limits on heat efficiency I might drop it for more heat/operations nodes though.

[Bud Crue]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 July 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

I usually end up taking about half of it, getting most of the armor nodes and a few structure. If I know my build is stretching the limits on heat efficiency I might drop it for more heat/operations nodes though.

Yup. 11 nodes (I think its 11) to get 10% increase in armor. Have only failed to take at least this on 1 mech.

[Wyald Katt]

It all comes down to what you're driving, what it has on it, and how you like to drive it. Skill Tree is supposed to enhance your chosen loadout and style.

I'm somewhat cheered by the fact we still have people discussing this. Some folks swear by Survival, others by Mobility. Radar Dep/Seismic has its own yes and no folks. But really, people fill it out in the way that makes them happy.

In the end, half the people in the game are going to shoot your tail no matter what. And if you end up on a stupid team, possibly one or two people past half.

[Scratx]

If there's one thing about the skill tree PGI got right is that there is no One True Skill Path Way.

[panzer1b]

Ive pretty much come to the same conclusion regarding the survivability tree. Unless your mech is extremely good at spreading damage, or comes pre-packaged with excessive armor/structure quirks, a measly 25 extra armor on the CT (and even less everywhere else) isnt really going to save you especially at higher tiers where you can have your fully skilled mech loose a CT from 3 alfa strikes (if you ever play with or against coordinated teams with a lance over TS then its more then possible for 4 60+ alfa mechs to 1 shot you anyways regardless of what skills you have).

If you want to last longer, mobility and sensors (in particular radar derp and seismik) are going to do you far better. The best defense is either physically evading the enemy through a higher speed and or agility, or outright killing them faster then they can kill you. Id rather spend that 20+ points to give myself better cooling (and thgus allow me to kill them much quicker) then spend it on the ability to get shot at a insignificant amount more. Yeah there will always be games where that extra 20 points of protection saves me from dying, but there will be just as many if not more games that 10% more sustained DPS lets me get 1-2 more kills that i couldnt have pulled off without those particular skills.

So i guess it comes down to the choice of occasionally surviving something you normally would have died from, or occasionally getting a kill or 2 that you normally shouldnt have been able to do. Id rather put all my leftover points into heat management (after the mandatory radar derp/seismik/speed tweak) and give myself the ability to kill more often and deal more damage throughout teh course of EVERY game, then the occasionally useful ability to survive less then half of the average laser vomit alfa strike ontop of my usual protection. SInce extra damage output is useful in every single game i ever play (aside from gauss builds that are more or less heat neutral, i dont have a single mech that isnt primarily limited by its heat bear), it makes sense to spec into something that is almost always useful over something that is extremely situational. Since my playstyle involves minimizing incoming damage through stealth, flanking, attacking from unexpected locations, or using distractions like heavys and assaults to let me get more damage in, extra armor does very little to help while extra damage and perhaps some mobility is always beneficial to have.

[Garfuncle]

It's worth it if your mech as pre-existing armor/structure quirks. Urbanmech, Bushwacker, Cataphract, Atlas/Annihilator all benefit greatly from the survival tree.

[Brain Cancer]

Yeah. Survival tree really goes best with quirks that effectively boost it even further. Urbies with survival loaded up are a very good idea, for example.

[Baeolophus]

Thanks for the numbers, OP!

For those interested, this made me curious enough to go do a straight-up numbers check on my favourite mechs: Dragons.

(and yeah, I'm serious)

What I found is that full vs. 0 investment in the durability tree translates to as much as 33 (!) additional health on the CT and averaging about 20 extra HP on every other part besides. 26 to 32 pts gives you about ~5 additional HP per part average, so almost 1 HP per point of extra investment. That sounds like a lot to me, especially on a relatively fast, relatively small mech. Granted, this is a 60t mech with heavy survivability quirks besides, so it's one of the best possible cases.

So to me, that's a heck of a lot more valuable than almost anything else I could get out of the skill tree; on the other hand, though, the popular case of the 3x LPL 1C probably gets considerable value out of heat and laser relevant nodes.

Anyway, just wanted to share.

Edited by Baeolophus, 21 July 2017 - 02:37 PM.

[Appogee]

Very thought provoking.

I have generally been taking either half or all of the Survival tree.

However, I think I'm going to reduce my investment in it for non-facetime Mechs, and put the points into Seismic.

[Khobai]

Quote

Speed Tweak back to 10% pls.

it was lowered for a reason.

what they need to do is make speed tweak different for each weight class

like how it is for armor and structure bonuses

so like +7.5% for lights, +12.5% for mediums, +7.5% for heavies, +10% for assaults

because fast heavies have enough of an advantage as is speed tweak doesnt need to make them faster.

and mediums need to be sped up the most to differentiate them from fast heavies that go nearly as fast but carry even more weapons and armor. its just too hard for mediums to take a non-XL engine and still go fast, so they need the extra speed boost to help them take non-XLs.

Edited by Khobai, 21 July 2017 - 03:30 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

The worth of the additional armor/structure is directly proportional to the capabilities of the pilot; If you typically die quickly without contributing much you will continue to do so, and vice versa, at a rate proportionate to the margin of increase.

[Alexander of Macedon]

The left half to grab all but 2 of the armor nodes is worth it on a lot of 'mechs. The whole tree is worth it on stuff with a lot of existing armor/structure quirks. I like to take the half-tree for stuff like a Timberwolf, Rifleman, or Ebon Jag that already dishes out a lot of hurt but is kinda fragile relative to how much/long it needs to expose.

[HGAK47]

Scratx, on 21 July 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

If there's one thing about the skill tree PGI got right is that there is no One True Skill Path Way.

Mostly agree but I dont think all skill nodes were created equal. Many have much less value, (JJ vectoring, cap acc, improved gyros etc..) At least for the vast majority of the time anyway.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 21 July 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

+7.5% for lights, +12.5% for mediums, +7.5% for heavies, +10% for assaults

That's stupid. Some mechs like the Ice Ferret and Viper are already better at performing light mech roles than the actual lights themselves.

[FupDup]

Anyways, in general my build path looks like this:

1. Always take 20 Operations for Cool Run and Heat Containment, because everything in MWO runs hot.
2. Always take a little over 30 Firepower for max Heat Gen, because everything in MWO runs hot.
3. If using stuff like Heavy Lasers, I grab Laser Duration.
4. If using PPCs, I grab Velocity.
5. If my mech has high base agility like a Summoner, I spend the rest on Survival.
6. If my mech has high base durability quirks, I spend the rest on Mobility.

That's how I outfit all of my gundams. Not a whole lot of differentiation there...

[UrsusMorologus]

almost all games its better to spend skill points on damage instead of defense, kill faster is better than die slower

I do find it useful for lights though especially the ones that don't suffer from weapon heat

[AssaultPig]

value of survival nodes depends heavily on the mech; heavies and assaults that get structure/armor quirks get a lot of value out of the relevant nodes, while a light that has only ~30 armor on a component sees almost none. The primary problem is mostly that the value of the nodes is not really intuitive (this isn't a problem exclusive to the survival tree either.)

the main thing to consider is opportunity cost; if you've spent the 21 points to get speed tweak and 30-40 points in the firepower tree, you have 40 or so left to play around with. 10-20 of those can be spent in the operations tree if you need more heat reduction; after that you're choosing between minor sensor buffs, jumping a bit better or surviving another volley or three, and the survival tree seems pretty attractive

[Wildstreak]

What is the order of Node Value in this tree?
Meaning best to worst ones.
I got a Mech where I paid for every Node I needed elsewhere and have a bunch left over.

[ocular tb]

I think it's worth it. I have the survival tree almost maxed out on most of the mechs that I've re-skilled, including lights. Judging by how most enemy mechs I encounter seem to be more durable than in the past, I'd say most others are putting points into the durability tree as well.