94 replies to this topic

[roekenny]

sycocys, on 20 May 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

When did all the other more useful weapons stop working against LRMs?

Because all your team has lrms too so that meat at the front is paper thin, so the lights and mediums have to pick up the slack (as usual) but because they are the only targets the enemy can shoot they can't do their job properly.

[sycocys]

Prosperity Park, on 20 May 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

Some people who have a difficult time adjusting to change are not able to find the Radar deprivation nodes or the AMS overload nodes anymore.

Could be, I just know that I didn't have anything I'd consider remotely an issue with LRMs running unskilled mechs last night so I don't understand the reason behind the fuss. The same counters to LRMs are in place that we've had since they fixed the rainbow to the moon shots and lrms through cover issues.

[Felicitatem Parco]

sycocys, on 20 May 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Could be, I just know that I didn't have anything I'd consider remotely an issue with LRMs running unskilled mechs last night so I don't understand the reason behind the fuss. The same counters to LRMs are in place that we've had since they fixed the rainbow to the moon shots and lrms through cover issues.

I was joking. There is no excuse for the complaint threads.

[sycocys]

Prosperity Park, on 20 May 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

I was joking. There is no excuse for the complaint threads.

Not a complaint, I just don't understand the source of the "new" problem. LRMs are still hard countered by the map designs other than maybe Polar.

Target decay doesn't really have any factor on their usefulness because you can still run the missiles into terrain. As far as I could tell, they didn't upgrade the trajectory or guidance to change that up.

So in many ways not having radar derp is better than having it against most LRM players because they will volley away without actually hitting anything.

Is it just that people are completely out of practice with dealing with LRMs or too crutched on 100% derp with light cover?

[Kroete]

Knighthawk26, on 20 May 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

'Whine, moan and complain.

But not a single word about ams?

Knighthawk26, on 20 May 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

On the other hand, many mech pilots do not want to spend the large number of skill points needed to drill down and get the Radar Deprivation skills needed to counter the advantage that every LRM boat is going to have.

You "do not want to spend" points on radar derp and then cry about lrms?
Its not that you cant take the crutch ...
You do not want the crutch!

So let me tell you one thing:
If you do not want to take counters, its your own fault,
stop that crying and please stop making a fool of yourself.

No ams, no cry!

Edit:
I used the crutch only on one mech and only because i won the module,
i feeled not that much difference using it.

But if you survived the real lrmgeddon, you dont need the crutch
and i have seen the pretty spiraling artemis lrms ...

Edited by Kroete, 20 May 2017 - 09:34 AM.

[oldradagast]

Hiding in the back is not limited to LRM users. There are no shortage of mechs that hide in the back, ineffectively "sniping" or spewing laser vomit all over random targets and locations. Pretending this is purely an LRM issue is simply inaccurate, and demanding the game somehow only "count damage that counts" is just plain silly - ALL damage counts in MWO. There's no healing or regeneration. So, yes, thank your LRM' wielders if they strip off 25% of a mech's armor all over by the time it gets into meaningful combat with you since that damage does count.

Now, horrible LRM builds ARE an issue. The ones where people forget to bring direct fire weapons - or bring 1 medium laser - and then stupidly when the fight gets within minimum range of their LRM's. I'm not sure why such bad builds are commong with LRM's, but they are.

[MechaBattler]

Maybe they took the notion of "Brawling is dead" that everyone keeps perpetuating to heart and assumed it'd be easier to LRM.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 20 May 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

It's funny, people are asking bad weapons to be nerfed

I just want to be able to take the simple preventative measure of radar dep without needing to invest into nearly the entirety of a tree that is full of mostly garbage filler to get it.

Either that, or PGI needs to remove Indirect Fire and then buff LRMs to function & compete with direct fire weapons (higher velocity, better flight paths, tighter damage spread, etc).


I'd really prefer the latter, I'd like to have a third build path for mid to long range play (with the other 2 being ballistics & energy) but I will never use LRMs in any real capacity as long as they remain a noob weapon with crutch mechanics and forced low skill ceiling to compensate for the lower skill entry.

Edited by Ultimax, 20 May 2017 - 09:43 AM.

[MauttyKoray]

Monkey Lover, on 20 May 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

Still not really an issue in group Q. If the other team has to many lrm boats they get pushed and they die.

When laser ams hits with new tech I bet a lot of people will start using this.

This, even now we still have radar derp, AMS, and hard cover to counter LRMs. As it is the spreads were increased and its no longer like we have LRM 5 snipers anymore coring you out.

I've seen too many people run out and brawl in the open only to get LRM'd to death and blame their team or insult the LRM users. Once Laser AMS comes out it will be another game changer in regards to LRM effectiveness.

[Trev Firestorm]

Non-issue is non-issue, bring AMS and laugh.

The majority of LRM whining can be summed up as such: I can't deal with one of the easiest countered weapons in the game and want it to just be invalidated completely for free.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 20 May 2017 - 09:50 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

LRMs wouldn't be a problem if there was not an easy-accessible lock mechanic. Easy locks are annoying as hell and (no pun intended) are locking the game down, e.g. it is one more nail in the coffin of brawling. You have to disengage at once or you get lurmed to hell.
Actually it is simple:

1. Lock should be changed into a true fire and forget mechanic once a target got tagged for a certain time or narced

2. Direct fire capability without locks should me severely buffed

This would make LRMs also much more interesting to use. Personally I hardly ever play an LRM boat because it is boring for me. I mean, you play a shooter without aiming...that is like playing an adventure with a walkthrough

Edited by Bush Hopper, 20 May 2017 - 10:17 AM.

[Ngamok]

LRMs always get popular during events. Tuesday and Wednesday when I played I saw very few LRMs. If you guys noticed more last night, it's due to the event.

[Brain Cancer]

Knighthawk26, on 20 May 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

The solution is simple. Just remove both the target decay and radar deprivation skills from the game. Make LRM's lose lock-on if LOS is broken. This would greatly help the current imbalance in PUG play which is where new players start and where many of us long time players like to make a few drops when we have limited time to play.

I'm just waiting for the people who figure out that LRMs got one and only one boost from this, being additional ammo. Everything else is pretty much the same, just skill points.

MauttyKoray, on 20 May 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

This, even now we still have radar derp, AMS, and hard cover to counter LRMs. As it is the spreads were increased and its no longer like we have LRM 5 snipers anymore coring you out.

I've seen too many people run out and brawl in the open only to get LRM'd to death and blame their team or insult the LRM users. Once Laser AMS comes out it will be another game changer in regards to LRM effectiveness.

Does ammo boosting also apply to AMS?

[roekenny]

oldradagast, on 20 May 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

Hiding in the back is not limited to LRM users. There are no shortage of mechs that hide in the back, ineffectively "sniping" or spewing laser vomit all over random targets and locations. Pretending this is purely an LRM issue is simply inaccurate, and demanding the game somehow only "count damage that counts" is just plain silly - ALL damage counts in MWO. There's no healing or regeneration. So, yes, thank your LRM' wielders if they strip off 25% of a mech's armor all over by the time it gets into meaningful combat with you since that damage does count.

Now, horrible LRM builds ARE an issue. The ones where people forget to bring direct fire weapons - or bring 1 medium laser - and then stupidly when the fight gets within minimum range of their LRM's. I'm not sure why such bad builds are commong with LRM's, but they are.

Lrms get the flak as poptarts and laser vomit have a use at ALL ranges and don't become worthless at 300m or less. Along with having to expose self to fire (albeit briefly) draws aggro do dam sight more meaningful dps means they annoying but a fair to play with and fight against. They also tend to push a lot more if they have a tank soaking damage and not self entitled little s***s who want you do do all the work and wipe their **** when they lag behind the rest of the team It's also why bad builds so apparent in lrm boats as pop tarts and laz vomit you can fight back in pretty much any situation and when you spec someone in a bad build they appear to put up a good fight but 1 small laser vs a light you see the glaring fault instantly.

Also about damage count issue of players thinking "oh i did 1000+ damage so must be "good."" Random spray and prey attitude should not be rewarded as does not encourage effective damage projection or teamwork that's the problem i have with it but thats for another topic.

[Ade the Rare]

roekenny, on 20 May 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

Also about damage count issue of players thinking "oh i did 1000+ damage so must be "good."" Random spray and prey attitude should not be rewarded as does not encourage effective damage projection or teamwork that's the problem i have with it but thats for another topic.

Agreed. Always bugs me if I have more kills/solo-kills than someone who just spewed dmg and scored more; it's like being penalised for aiming.

And as for LRM's, I always try and spec for radar depriv. because I'm not in a unit, so I'm always in some sort of pug (unless I get lucky in a scout match, in which case I follow them to the letter and *oh we win*). In pugs *not* having radar depriv. is a big gamble.

Will the ECM mechs stick around and cover the team? Has the ECM guy even spec'd for ECM? Will they just charge in and die before the assaults have even made it up the field?

Spec for radar depriv. and pray at least half your team knows what they're doing,

[oldradagast]

roekenny, on 20 May 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

Also about damage count issue of players thinking "oh i did 1000+ damage so must be "good."" Random spray and prey attitude should not be rewarded as does not encourage effective damage projection or teamwork that's the problem i have with it but thats for another topic.

Except, again, all damage counts in MWO. LRM players cannot make their missiles hit a specific location, but provided they are hitting the enemy mech - and shooting at one that is actually relevant to whoever their team is fighting - their damage does count. The only way to do damage that "doesn't count" in MWO is to intentionally - or carelessly - do silly things like trying to shoot off a full armor arm from a mech with a cherry red, cored center torso.

So, even if your LRM players do "nothing" but shave 25% off the armor of many enemy mechs before they draw within effective combat range, that damage still counts... unless folks are going to run their mechs with 25% less armor all around and pretend it has no effect on gameplay.

Now, if they have only 1 medium laser - or nothing - to use when combat does get close, that's silly and should be discouraged, but the damage they did to the approaching mechs still counts.

Edited by oldradagast, 20 May 2017 - 11:45 AM.

[Judah Malganis]

The issue is that players perceive that LRM are stronger so there's a ton of boats out there. I've even seen a handful of lights doing full LRM boat build. I don't mind so much getting hit with LRMs, but between being in teams packing 4-5 LRMers with no backup weapons, and people panicking, hiding and praying for the rain to stop, it gets annoying.

On the other hand, I had a good game earlier where I managed to solo flank an enemy team in my Nova and kill 4 LRM boats, but it's been hard to convince teams to push today.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 20 May 2017 - 12:22 PM.

[chucklesMuch]

In most of games i played last night, lrm boats were either targets for lights or absent.

[Lykaon]

Knighthawk26, on 20 May 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

How many of you have noticed that since the New Skills Tree went active LRM boats have proliferated. I tried to warn PGI that the new skill system would favor LRM's and make spamming them more profitable.

Why is this so? The answer is simple. Every LRM boat will get the skills to improve their main/only weapon system. LRM play is focused on offense, and LRM boats often skip investment in agility or other defensive skills/items. That means they all get a good target decay value to keep their locks long enough to pound an enemy even after they break LOS.

On the other hand, many mech pilots do not want to spend the large number of skill points needed to drill down and get the Radar Deprivation skills needed to counter the advantage that every LRM boat is going to have. Also the previous base range of ECM has been reduced if the ECM mech does not spend lots of skill points to enhance it. So LRM spamming mercs will have more juicy targets without ecm or Radar Deprevation to protect them. The result: Easy C-bills for the LRM boats, and frustration for everyone else.

Oh, and the poor non LRM mech on the receiving end of the yellow rain (I think that is the color I see when LRM's are raining on me) can't accelerate fast enough to charge the LRM boat before he is blasted by the now fully enhanced capabilities given to the LRM boats in the game. He didn't have enough skill points to get all the kinetic burst and speed tweaks. And the LRM boat doesn't need speed, armor, jump jets, etc. His singular role fits perfectly into the new meta focused on narrow specialization. All other mechs have to face real trade offs.

The solution is simple. Just remove both the target decay and radar deprivation skills from the game. Make LRM's lose lock-on if LOS is broken. This would greatly help the current imbalance in PUG play which is where new players start and where many of us long time players like to make a few drops when we have limited time to play.

Groups and Teams can easily include some fast, ecm equipped, "anti-LRM boat mechs" and counter the LRM menace. However, the more common PUG's in quick play are going to either switch to LRM boats to make easy c-bills, or quit due to frustration.

The majority of the actual defenses used by experienced players are unchanged.

Cover still works. Use it.
AMS still works (and with the new system AMS overload is more accessable).
LRMs still have a very low projectile speed (160mps base)allowing for ease of evasion at longer ranges.
LRMs still have a 180m min. range. AKA useless in a brawl.


If there really is a massive increase in large LRM boats then use the counters. Like a 6x sml pulse Arctic Cheetah with ECM. By the time they can lock you you can slip under the min range due to the mech's speed.

This is an easy counter to the coverhumper LRM boat that stands apart from it's team's support.

[Insanity09]

@ Bush Hopper,

I've read and re-read your post, and have to say I still don't quite see why what you propose would help the game.

Part 1: Change locks so that you don't have to maintain them, as you say, fire-and-forget.
What?! In what way would this improve the game. If this were done, then ECM, radar dep, and breaking LOS to deny locks/guidance would all be rendered pointless. You'd be massively buffing LRMs (and a little on sSRMs, not that they need it). What game-play need would that fulfill? What broken mechanic would it repair?

Part 2: Direct fire without locks buffed? Again, huh?
You'd like to see every weapon in the game improved somehow when people are not using their 'R' key to lock opponents? Direct fire being things like AC's, lasers, etc. Improved in what way? Why?
It makes far more sense from a player skill and teamwork pov to encourage using the 'R' key, not discourage it.
Unless.... you are talking about firing LRMs at ground targets (where the enemy is hopefully standing on that ground)? In which case, I suppose you are referring to tightening up the spread? But why should we reward people for poor play? There is no good reason (unless you've come up with one?) to not lock your target, and as a LRMer to carry devices (tag, narc, b/cap, tc, art) to speed up lock time and do it right.

I personally don't see that spraying LRMs willy-nilly around the landscape and being able to fire at will when somebody else kindly provides you with a target without concern for how long the target would be held would make LRMing more interesting. Faster, perhaps, but no more useful and likely even less effective.
If you can provide your reasoning, I'd be happy to learn. Otherwise, I have to assume that was a troll post, but written in such a confusing way...