75 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

Take a Jenner IIC. With a normal armour distribution it has something like 27/5 armour on a ST and 16 internal structure.

Investing 17 points in Survival I get 4/0 extra armour and 1 structure

Investing 27 points in Survival I get 6/1 extra armour and 4 structure.



Point is: the tree does next to nothing for the light mech class despite its higher %

Heavies and assaults get more out of it despite a lower % value.


The light mech class is still squishy as hell anyway and needs some help.

Proposal:
Give them better agility values from Mobility tree because agility is the lights' main defence anyway and is currently not high enough - and hasn't been since the clubbing of 30-35t mechs after the re-scaling

Edited by Bush Hopper, 21 May 2017 - 02:00 AM.

[Battlemaster56]

Never go survivalist on lights every it's a waste anyway, learned it the hard way on PTS. The agility tree after messing with it I noticed my Jenner IIC's last extremely longer before when they move like a cargo truck, and move much more fluently when moving and are fine right now.

[Iron Heel]

First I think the Jenner IIC may be kind of a bad example as, IMO, it moves like and is more the size of a medium mech now.
And, also my opinion, the survival tree isnt really for light mechs.
As a light, I rely much more on staying out of and avoiding direct fire by being quick and agile rather than tanking damage.
I think those points would much better serve you spent in Agility, ie: Accel, Decel,Turn Rate. & Torso Twist enhancements and the Firepower tree.

[PaquIS]

I did went for the survival tree on Locust on top of the mobility ofc. I think the gains were quite decent as I got 5 points of armor for CT and well dont remember the other components.

However it came with the expense of firepower tree so even the 6 SPL build was just too hot. So now I have mobility heavily upgraded, sensors to get all the deprivation nodes and seismic. Rest on firepower.

[His Holiness Pope Buster]

I wish they would scale the light mechs back down to the size they were before the rescale. This should help improve their survivability.

[Shifty McSwift]

Making the trees do more for they classes they effect less is kind of backwards planning in its own way, sure the values after percentages are less on lights than they are for assaults when it comes to armor ratings, and vice versa with lights vs assaults benefits from the mobility tree, but they are supposed to be, that is the point of doing it by percentage rates.

It would be like complaining that a jenner has less armor than an atlas.. I mean of course it does?

[Inatu Elimor]

Battlemaster56, on 21 May 2017 - 02:29 AM, said:

Never go survivalist on lights every it's a waste anyway, learned it the hard way on PTS. The agility tree after messing with it I noticed my Jenner IIC's last extremely longer before when they move like a cargo truck, and move much more fluently when moving and are fine right now.

I have the survivaltree maxed out for all my lights and zero mobility as I believe the lights are mobile enough.
I just created little monsters with it.

Edited by Inatu Elimor, 21 May 2017 - 04:06 AM.

[SQW]

If you are the type that stops to shoot in a light, no amount of armor quirk will save you.

If you are one of the better pilots, getting a solid shot on you is next to impossible for the majority of QP population so a few extra pts here and there might actually be useful.

My RVN-3L is a narcer and I don't have enough weapons to build up heat so the points that would normally go into operation instead went into armor/structure.

[Weeny Machine]

SQW, on 21 May 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

If you are the type that stops to shoot in a light, no amount of armor quirk will save you.

If you are one of the better pilots, getting a solid shot on you is next to impossible for the majority of QP population so a few extra pts here and there might actually be useful.

My RVN-3L is a narcer and I don't have enough weapons to build up heat so the points that would normally go into operation instead went into armor/structure.

Sure, Mr. Potato won't hit you. In a match with with T1-3 you will get hit more often than you like it.

Also, don't take it personal, but hearing this from someone with zero matches in a light this season...well, makes me sceptical anway.

[Darian DelFord]

Having been playing since they released the tree (Came back after 6 months hiatus just for this reason) I find it really meh!

I agree this is a foundation however it needs a lot of tweaks for every weight class. Mechs should not be forced to take absolutely useless skills (Looking at you IMproved Gyro) to get the very skills the need to survive especially in lights

Yes we all know I am a light advocate, and I think this new tree really skwed it for lights. Simple reason being we do not have the numbers that larger mechs have.

Lets face it lights MUST max out Mobility to even remotely stay alive.

Two Skills that aided in a lights defense and something I think mandatory for all lights to stay alive were seismic sensor and Radar Derp, both now buried under completely utterly useless skills for lights

Lights do not have the tonnage for heat sinks, so the operations tree which allowed lights to be semi competitive in damage now has all the cool run and heat containment's buried.

Mobility I think for lights is alright, however the percentages need to be higher for lights and gradually lessen towards the higher tonnage mechs. Speed is life for lights.

The survival tree is just complete garbage for the points invested, you really get nothing beneficial for it in a light mech and I agree to just skip it as there are other trees that you have to fill out to survive.

Firepower needs to be broken down into 4 trees "General" "Lasers" Ballistics" Missiles" wah with their own bonuses.

Currently to be a viable light you must damn nea max out agility, close to 30 points in fire, and almost max out operations. And that is just to barely reach the viable stage.

IS lights suffer greatly from the tree, while clan lights did see an improvement.

All in all, as usual lights got the short end of the stick. My locusts handle like tanks down as their accel/decl were slahsed almost 40% and their turn radius is garbage now compared to earlier versions.

I think this is a foundation and if PGI gets off their *** and actually makes many needed tweaks for each class I think it will be good.

However personally I think with the amount of time they spend on just this, it is lacking and not very well thought out at all.

[Weeny Machine]

Darian, I pretty much agree with all of you (well-said!) except the firepower tree. I can navigate it now pretty well.

[Zigmund Freud]

I (almost) maxed survivability only on Huggin, because it's more of a DPS build, so it does take fire more than other lights, it's allready tolerably agile as is, and it has nice structure quirks. I tegret nothing, it's actually tanky as for a light. I finished quite a few games without armor and red, wondering why am I still alive. So for Huggin I would recomend survivability > firepower > mobility > sensors or something.
I also tried it on Jenner, the one with 6 energy. And to my surprise on quirkless Jenner (at least i think it's quirkless, correct me if not) survivability also did the thing. Obviously you are still light, and in direct confrontation you get rekt, but surviving a few extra shots is noticable. But in case of not-so-quirked I would go agility > firepower (moderately) > survivability > sensors or something.

[Damnedtroll]

Survivability nodes work with % like a lot other nodes... if you don't have armor in the beginning it didn't change much things... but if you put those pts in agility where you have big scores with light, the change in % of the nodes will be huge.

It's a min max situation you know ? Use your points at the good places !

[Inatu Elimor]

Damnedtroll, on 21 May 2017 - 05:39 AM, said:

Survivability nodes work with % like a lot other nodes... if you don't have armor in the beginning it didn't change much things... but if you put those pts in agility where you have big scores with light, the change in % of the nodes will be huge.

It's a min max situation you know ? Use your points at the good places !

Yes and don' t forget it needs to reflect your playstyle.

[Darian DelFord]

Another issue that has not been brought up in regards to lights and this new skill tree is the complete arse ****** we just took in regards to streaks

Lets face it, with the excpetion of 1 or 2 mechs and maybe troll builds, lights do not spec sensors. Thereby we do not get Radar deprivation or seismic.

Now add into that most streakers carry enough to one or two shot most lights.... add into that, if they are smart (Yeah yeah I know), but if they are smart they almost completely max out sensors especially the boats.

This is a triple whammy to lights

First off Artemis bug is still not fixed in regards to streaks

Secondly we can not break lock by going out of LOS with radar deprivation

Thirdly we are targeted longer due to target decay.

This is one of the reasons why streaks are more prevalent right now. They are easy C-Bills and Experience.

Add into that the range modifications and everything esle in the firepower section and lights do not stand a chance. Even with the new range bonuses from the weapon tree. Streaks optimal ranges are still outside most lights optimal ranges.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I think this is what makes the skill tree actually a fairly good addition to the game, because we are having debates like this.

As far as the survival tree on lights, sure adding 6 armor and 4 structure doesn't seem like alot but your straight adding something like 20%-25% survivability to your mech. You have to consider that unless your standing still in your mech, most damage your receiving even from something like a LPL is 1-2 points of damage while the rest misses or spreads. That being the case, 6 armor and 4 structure means you can take 5-10 MORE LPL hits before you die and if that is an LPL, just how many more ML or SL hits does it take to kill you? Basically 10 points of armor and structure is HUGE for a light mech.

Now I am not saying you should forego agility but why not invest in both?

Edited by Viktor Drake, 21 May 2017 - 04:31 PM.

[nehebkau]

@OP

Unless you are in a 100T mech, the survival tree is pretty pointless. Because its % based, rather then a flat value plus a percent the lighter the mech the more useless it is. Go for speed, always speed....

Having said that, even on a 100T mech, the %increase is insignificant for the amount of skill points you have to give up.

Viktor Drake, on 21 May 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

Now I am not saying you should forego agility but why not invest in both?

Speed and agility are both offensive and defensive abilities -- thicker skin is defensive only. And honestly, you only get decent rewards after you invest a lot of SP in it -- points better spent in other trees.

Edited by nehebkau, 21 May 2017 - 08:52 AM.

[Tarogato]

Invest 32 points and on the CT you'll get +10.1 armour and +8.4 structure. That's actually a LOT.

23% more armour.
38% more structure.

Overall, including structure's vulnerability to crit damage, you get 28% more health.

I don't understand why you wouldn't max that out. It's extraordinarily significant. Especially for lights, who normally survive by the skin of their teeth... they now have a lot more buffer to work with.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Darian DelFord, on 21 May 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

Another issue that has not been brought up in regards to lights and this new skill tree is the complete arse ****** we just took in regards to streaks

Lets face it, with the excpetion of 1 or 2 mechs and maybe troll builds, lights do not spec sensors. Thereby we do not get Radar deprivation or seismic.

Now add into that most streakers carry enough to one or two shot most lights.... add into that, if they are smart (Yeah yeah I know), but if they are smart they almost completely max out sensors especially the boats.

This is a triple whammy to lights

First off Artemis bug is still not fixed in regards to streaks

Secondly we can not break lock by going out of LOS with radar deprivation

Thirdly we are targeted longer due to target decay.

This is one of the reasons why streaks are more prevalent right now. They are easy C-Bills and Experience.

Add into that the range modifications and everything esle in the firepower section and lights do not stand a chance. Even with the new range bonuses from the weapon tree. Streaks optimal ranges are still outside most lights optimal ranges.

Your talking about your personal preference of build. Just because you chose not to spec for Radar Dep and Seismic doesn't mean everyone is going to not spec those skills. In fact it is way to early to tell where the Meta is going to fall. Eventually the competitive players are going to come up with their own opinions on what you need for each mech and it might very well be determined that spec'ing sensers offers more advantage than spec'ing firepower or agility or armor, etc.

My point is, if you feel that lights are as such a disadvantage without Radar Dep and Seismic, why aren't you spec'ing into sensors?? The answer is your telling yourself that you don't want to give up something in another tree to do so because you feel that something is more important than Radar Dep and Seismic. Since that it the case, it is a choice you, yourself are making which is the whole point of the skill tree. What you shouldn't be doing is complaining that everything is broken when it is only broken based on the choices you made.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 21 May 2017 - 08:56 AM.

[ThermidorFallen]

For the Wolfhound I would argue the armour skills are a bit more useful. The quirks and survival tree skills together get around 65 CT and 51 ST total armour. I'm currently sitting at around 4 kdr with the WLF-2R and I am by no means a good light pilot but being able to out-tank enemy lights is pretty useful in a knife fight and as most QP Mechs are using lasers, it generally takes a while to down you.

Or it's just because Davion Mechs are that much better made than the rest of the trash being fielded, especially that flimsy Clan refuse that disintegrates when looked at.