16 replies to this topic

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Hello: I've searched for an answer to the following and didn't find it. My question is about the effect of the structure and armor skill nodes. As I understand it in a normal mech without skills or quirks maximum armor for each component is always twice the structure value. And that armor number is the one you see and can allocate in the mechlab. The total max hit points is always structure value plus max armor value. If that's corrrect and holds true after skill tree adjustment, then increasing structure with skills should also increase armor. But I don't think that happens with skill tree adjustments, even though I think that DOES happen with structure quirks where actual allocable armor values are affected. Is that right?
Also, increasing armor values should increase maximum allocable armor values but with associated weigh if using that armor. But I don't think it works that way; I think that the increase is invisible in the mechbay and does not add weight or allocable armor points. (Or have I missed that and failed to use the extra armor?)
It seems like the skill tree structure and armor increase is not "real" structure or armour in the sense of adding adjustable armor points per component with assocated weight, but then what is it? A percentage increase in hit points per unit of armor or structure? In that case it would seem that armor skills are always better that structure in hit point value, If you use most of your armor, is that right?
I'm still a noob and could be totally wrong on this. Does anyone agree or disagree? Thanks for your thoughts.

Edited by DeloresAbernathy, 20 May 2017 - 04:04 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

I believe (but am not certain) that the structure and armor skills work in the same way as the structure/armor quirks, that is they add extra armor/structure points which do not display in the Mechlab, I believe they are a percentage, so if you got 5% extra armor and you were using a 100 tonner you would be looking at an extra 3.4 on each arm, an extra 4.2 on each leg and torso and an extra 6.2 on the CT

[TELEFORCE]

The enhanced armor and structure values do show up in the 'mech lab. The armor bonuses are more obvious than the structure bonuses because any armor bonus is indicated with a +# in green next to the armor value. The structure bonus isn't indicated as such, but the structure factor number does change depending on the structure bonuses skilled up.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

TELEFORCE, on 20 May 2017 - 05:29 AM, said:

The enhanced armor and structure values do show up in the 'mech lab. The armor bonuses are more obvious than the structure bonuses because any armor bonus is indicated with a +# in green next to the armor value. The structure bonus isn't indicated as such, but the structure factor number does change depending on the structure bonuses skilled up.

Thanks for the info, I'm still confused so maybe I need to be more specific. I see that you can see the bonus percentage in the quirks/skills section that lists the modifications. What I do not know is whether the extra armor shows up in the numbers on the mech itself in the mechlab that you adjust up or down with the buttons, to set the amount of front and rear armor, and total armor on each component. So for example if you increase your armor with skills do you then have to increase your armor used in the mechlab in order to make use of it, so it's not just potential armor? I don't think you do ... but that's what I'm trying to confirm.

And there is my question about the structure skill bonus .. does it affect the armor maximum the way base structure does (with armor being twice the structure value)?

By comparison: If you look at the atlas structure/armor quirks, it's not clear to me they are stacking together: some variants have different types (armor v. Structure) and percentages of bonuses. Yet they still have the same total maximum armor value (608 according to Smurphys), except for the Boars Head. Why is that? Is it because the math works out that way, or is the total actual armor not affected just the associated hit points?

[Rogue Jedi]

DeloresAbernathy, on 20 May 2017 - 06:22 AM, said:

Thanks for the info, I'm still confused so maybe I need to be more specific. I see that you can see the bonus percentage in the quirks/skills section that lists the modifications. What I do not know is whether the extra armor shows up in the numbers on the mech itself in the mechlab that you adjust up or down with the buttons, to set the amount of front and rear armor, and total armor on each component. So for example if you increase your armor with skills do you then have to increase your armor used in the mechlab in order to make use of it, so it's not just potential armor? I don't think you do ... but that's what I'm trying to confirm.

no they do not, the same as they never have with armor/structure quirks

Quote

And there is my question about the structure skill bonus .. does it affect the armor maximum the way base structure does (with armor being twice the structure value)?

no they will not

Quote

By comparison: If you look at the atlas structure/armor quirks, it's not clear to me they are stacking together: some variants have different types (armor v. Structure) and percentages of bonuses. Yet they still have the same total maximum armor value (608 according to Smurphys), except for the Boars Head. Why is that? Is it because the math works out that way, or is the total actual armor not affected just the associated hit points?

I do not know the answer to this

[TooDumbToQuit]

One thing I've been semi forgetting to do before I start the skill nodes is looking for quirks. For instance, I noticed my Summoner Pride had some structure quirks. One thing I'm doing now is looking for quirks before I do the skill nodes. I had thought quirks were gone and I was wrong.

Here are the quirks normally.


Here they are with some skill nodes added.







I'm not sure what F+2/R+D means. And I see Structure listed but it might have been there the whole time.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

I never noticed the structure number under the armor or those green modifiers, which are probably skill tree related and suggests that the armor number IS modified by the skill tree. It's interesting that the structure number is almost equal to the total max armor. The max armor should be double the structure (so long as there is weight available to allocate to armor). So if this armor number is not restricted by weight that suggests to me that the bonus structure points are decoupled from armor. I wish I had more time with my computer to experiment but when I do get access to the game I'd prefer to play. Family demands and having only one performance PC really limits my game time.

Is there any effective way of asking PGI to answer these questions?

[cazidin]

LikeUntoGod, on 20 May 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

I'm not sure what F+2/R+D means. And I see Structure listed but it might have been there the whole time.

Forward Armor + 2. Rear armor + 0.

[Rogue Jedi]

DeloresAbernathy, on 20 May 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

I never noticed the structure number under the armor or those green modifiers, which are probably skill tree related and suggests that the armor number IS modified by the skill tree. It's interesting that the structure number is almost equal to the total max armor.

not realy suprising, the Mech has 2 extra points of armor from the skills (a 70 ton Mech should have 60 on a side torso not 62, meaning 30 structure) a 70 ton Mech has 30 base structure, it gets +20 from the quirks so that is 50, then it gets an extra 5 skills each for 3.1% so that is an extra 15.5% armor 15.5% of 50 is 7.75 extra structure making 57.75 which rounds to 58 points of structure, I am not sure what I missed for the extra 1 point.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 20 May 2017 - 07:52 AM.

[Koniving]

They DO display in the Mechlab as a green text, and if you strip your armor completely, you're forced to at minimum have your "quirked" or "skilled" armor bare minimum for 0 weight.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Koniving, on 20 May 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

They DO display in the Mechlab as a green text, and if you strip your armor completely, you're forced to at minimum have your "quirked" or "skilled" armor bare minimum for 0 weight.

Yes that is the answer. I had just found this out the other way around: I skilled up a mech starting with maximum armor and weight to spare. The bonuses were visible in the green numbers although the actual armor maximums stayed the same and the total armor available stayed the same. The extra armor is built in for zero weight as Koniving said. The extra structure is also visible -- the structure numbers in white went up appropriately.

Its also clear that structure bonuses DO NOT propagate into armor -- in other words you don't get 2 extra armor for 1 extra structure. They are independently "skilled." With an armor bonus of 7.5% I am getting actually less than 7.5% of additional armor bonus over the usual maximum armor. For some reason it is not only rounding down, but rounding under the correct number. That may be a bug. The armor bonus of 7.5% should equal 73.1 on a base of 68, but I got 72 in the RT. Same shaving downward in the other components.

Anyway, question answered with the scientific method. Thanks all!

[Reno Blade]

One note:
if you will get the additional armor points rounded up/down, so if the 10% would be less than 0.5, you would not get a bonus armor point.

You can see this for rear armor. If you move it to 5 or 6 points, it will jump up 2 points as you will get a R+1 bonus (1 more rear armor).

So for 70 front armor you would get 7 extra points and then for 75 you get 8 points (or maybe at 76).
No ghost armor will be given if you move below 5.

Quirks are static flat additional points, so they are just added on top of what you selected (e.g. +15 armor) and any % from skills are added onto the current total number you have on the section.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Rogue Jedi, on 20 May 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

no they do not, the same as they never have with armor/structure quirks

They absolutely do. Go test it for yourself. Pick a 'mech, check its armor and structure values, go pump the full survival tree, then go check the armor and structure values again (without locking in the skill changes, as you presumably don't actually want the survival tree).

[Rogue Jedi]

He was asking if you habe to manuaky add the armor, or if they show up in the Mechlab, which I took to mean are they represented on the armor screen between the increase/decrease armor buttons which was the specific question I was responding to.

Yes it shows up on the Mech details screen if you expand it but that while viewable in the Mechlab is not part of the Mechlab, I am sorry if the comment earlier caused confusion

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Reno Blade, on 20 May 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

One note:
if you will get the additional armor points rounded up/down, so if the 10% would be less than 0.5, you would not get a bonus armor point.

You can see this for rear armor. If you move it to 5 or 6 points, it will jump up 2 points as you will get a R+1 bonus (1 more rear armor).

So for 70 front armor you would get 7 extra points and then for 75 you get 8 points (or maybe at 76).
No ghost armor will be given if you move below 5.

Quirks are static flat additional points, so they are just added on top of what you selected (e.g. +15 armor) and any % from skills are added onto the current total number you have on the section.

The Mechlab can't currently display fractional armor values, but the game does track them (it has to- otherwise it wouldn't be able to handle fractional damage from incomplete laser burns or weapon hits from beyond optimal range). If your bonus from your skill nodes is 20%, then you get 20% extra armor, even if that results in a fractional armor point somewhere.

The catch is that the bonus armor is applied per section, not to the overall armor pool of your 'Mech. You don't get free armor so much as you get your existing armor multiplied by your skill node bonus, and Mechlab displays the result rounded down to the nearest integer. So, if your 'Mech has 338 total armor but only has 300 points allocated, you do not get 67.6 points (338 * 0.2) regardless- instead, you get 20% of 300, and it's distrubuted the same way you've distributed your armor. So, if you have 59 armor on your front torso and 5 on the rear, you'd end up with 70.8 points on the front (59 * 1.2) and 6 points on the rear (5 * 1.2) after the bonus is applied. In Mechlab, that will display as 70/6, even though your front torso does have another 0.8 points of armor that won't be displayed.

The main takeaway is this: You get more out of the armor bonuses the more armor you put on your 'Mech, because your bonus is a multiplier rather than a fixed amount. To get the most possible bonus armor, fully armor the sections you want that bonus on most- avoid stripping any sections completely, because then you won't get any armor bonus on them at all (0 * 1.2 = 0)

Source.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 20 May 2017 - 07:13 PM.

[TooDumbToQuit]

cazidin, on 20 May 2017 - 07:08 AM, said:

Forward Armor + 2. Rear armor + 0.

I wrote F+2/R+D (not +2).

So the question still stands, what does it mean?

Some great math of this stuff guys and gals!

[Mechwarrior4670152]

LikeUntoGod, on 20 May 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

I wrote F+2/R+D (not +2).

So the question still stands, what does it mean?

Some great math of this stuff guys and gals!

It means that you have +2 armor on the front, and +0 on the back.
Just like he said.

The screenshot does not show a R+D, it shows R+0

Edited by Wence the Wanderer, 20 May 2017 - 08:16 PM.