26 replies to this topic

[TheMurf]

I have like everyone spent the last week working on several of my mechs...I am frustrated yes.

As for customizing my mechs, sorry I feel that the trees are simply wrong, No way around it as it stands currently.

The layout is great, I have issues with what PGI thinks I need to choose to customize my mechs, as all my mechs feel broken is each it's own way and I can't fix them given the limits provided.

You should not be forcing nodes on any one, if they want all torso let them, they want all speed tweak let them. Want all range take it but forcing unwanted nodes is NOT customizing nor is it balancing anything as per mech lore it's just PGI thinking and it is wrong.

I do not accept the logic of the number of nodes and forcing of unwanted nodes, you say you want to increase customization do so and let us take every missile option and targeting option, let us take every cooldown, heat gen, heat containment and range for a true laser vomit.

You need to break out the trees more, no programming limits there. The number of nodes limit of 91...that is a forced value, I do not accept the logic used to define it.

I know I need more time but I do not see how I can "customize" my mechs to make them as effective, some seem completely out of whack and cost to undo is way to costly so I have stopped all customizing, building till I see a way around everything.

No I am not going anywhere! I am not a pansy to simply un-install a game I great enjoy.

PGI you need to step up here and tweak the crap outa this, it is a step forward but man you make it hard for yourselves.

Sincerely,
TheMurf

[Bud Crue]

TheMurf, on 21 May 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

...it is a step forward but man you make it hard for yourselves.

Yeah, that kinda sums it up.

[R Valentine]

That's one small step for PGI, one giant nut kick for the players in their game.

[Mawai]

Ok think of it this way.
PGI wanted to design a system in which higher levels of customization costs more. There are several possible approaches to this ... here are two. (NOTE: I am not saying this is a great system, nor that there are lots of ways to improve it, however ... you are complaining about having to take skills you don't want and I think you need to keep in mind the alternative .. those skills are specifically there to make the skills you want MORE expensive while still giving you something for your skill points).

1) Create a straight lines of skill sets where each subsequent skill in a line costs more skill points. For example - level 1 is 1 skill point, level 2 costs 2 skill points, level 3 costs 3 skill points etc. To get to level 5 takes 15 skill points and you have the one skill.

Spend 15 skill points and get level 5 of your targeted skill.

OR

2) Create a branching tree structure with nodes so that obtaining a higher level in a specific skill will require taking other skills of lesser or non interest. The other skills do provide some benefit but not necessarily central to your build.

Spend 15 skill points, get level 5 of your targeted skill and 10 other skill points in other skills that may be related or might not be that useful. There could be more than one route to the 5 specific skills you want so you can tailor the choice of secondary skills provided a bit.

PGI chose 2 as being the more interesting approach since at least then you get something tangible for each skill point purchase. It allows for a bit more customization if there is more than one route to the desired skills in the tree but still achieves the goal of making the higher levels of the skill cost more.

P.S. In my opinion there are still issues in the skill tree in terms of layout and design but the basic concept isn't that bad and it is much better than what it replaced.

P.P.S. For a summary of my experiences so far ...

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5753275

Edited by Mawai, 21 May 2017 - 12:31 PM.

[R Valentine]

The full stupidity of the 91 point skill tree system is realized when you buy a new mech that you can't afford to skill up right away. Playing with no skills is like playing with half a mech. You run too hot, too slow, range is too low, weapons cycle too slow, you turn too slow, twist too slow, and in general suck *** at everything.

[Mawai]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 May 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

The full stupidity of the 91 point skill tree system is realized when you buy a new mech that you can't afford to skill up right away. Playing with no skills is like playing with half a mech. You run too hot, too slow, range is too low, weapons cycle too slow, you turn too slow, twist too slow, and in general suck *** at everything.

And this differs from an unskilled mech in the previous system how? Seriously ...

Also ... compare it to an unskilled mech in the previous system before they nerfed the values. Honestly, they are much better off than they used to be ...

However, the main difference is that you will earn between one and two skill points on average (maybe more) for every match you run. So after every match you can start buying points to even it out ... so you should start catching up fairly quickly.

[kapusta11]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 May 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

The full stupidity of the 91 point skill tree system is realized when you buy a new mech that you can't afford to skill up right away. Playing with no skills is like playing with half a mech. You run too hot, too slow, range is too low, weapons cycle too slow, you turn too slow, twist too slow, and in general suck *** at everything.

Yeah, you also have no armor and your weapons deal no damage, cool story.

[Coolant]

TheMurf, on 21 May 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

The layout is great, I have issues with what PGI thinks I need to choose to customize my mechs, as all my mechs feel broken is each it's own way and I can't fix them given the limits provided.

You need to give specific examples, because all of my mechs so far have increased overall performance than they did before with the 1 given exception Hunchback IIC whose turn rate is horrid. Using generalities (Hasty Generalization fallacy) rely on
broad examples because specific examples are insufficient to base an argument on.

Quote

You should not be forcing nodes on any one, if they want all torso let them, they want all speed tweak let them. Want all range take it but forcing unwanted nodes is NOT customizing nor is it balancing anything as per mech lore it's just PGI thinking and it is wrong.

Everyone would use the same cookie-cutter skill tree. The way the skill tree is set up now forces you to make concessions if you want something.

[TheMurf]

Maybe but no I do not think so as people people would tailor items that maybe similar for speed and mobility but each mech could then be tailored for further ballastics or lasers or blended without having to take items they do not want like range.
I am not saying it is perfect, this is a very difficult process but I do not like PGI forcing items on me when they say they want to open the mech to fully customize them.

I do like a lot of what has been put in place...I know that what I am saying is not new. I am trying to convey a POV nothing more and trying to be helpful...gawds I hope it doesn't sound whiny.

I think some of this may lead to a cookie cutter build for each class but I would like to add other nodes I can't add as I do not have either enough nodes to use or have to take items which I believe offer NO value to my build that PGI forces on me.

[R Valentine]

Mawai, on 21 May 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

And this differs from an unskilled mech in the previous system how? Seriously ... Also ... compare it to an unskilled mech in the previous system before they nerfed the values. Honestly, they are much better off than they used to be ... However, the main difference is that you will earn between one and two skill points on average (maybe more) for every match you run. So after every match you can start buying points to even it out ... so you should start catching up fairly quickly.

Catch up quickly? 2 skill points is 46 matches. That's not quick at all. Even under the old system, it never took me 45 matches to go from basic to mastered. It's way worse for new mechs than the old system.

[John Archer]

You think the skill tree is bad? Try having 245 mechs, of which two-thirds of them are mastered. Most are purchased with real cash. My dilemma: Skill up each mech at the time I want to play said mech. Sell off the mechs that are now no longer needed (due to not needing 3 variations to master a mech), and thus have wasted my hard-earned real-life money. Or sit here for hours on end applying all my skill points to each mech.

Thank you PGI for the boning....without the common courtesy of a reach-around. :/

[Cato Phoenix]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 May 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

The full stupidity of the 91 point skill tree system is realized when you buy a new mech that you can't afford to skill up right away. Playing with no skills is like playing with half a mech. You run too hot, too slow, range is too low, weapons cycle too slow, you turn too slow, twist too slow, and in general suck *** at everything.

And then you skill up and you run too hot, move too slow, range at least improved, weapons cycle slow, you turn too slow, twist too slow, and in general suck at most things but might have more hit points.

[FreeFragUK]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 May 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

Catch up quickly? 2 skill points is 46 matches. That's not quick at all. Even under the old system, it never took me 45 matches to go from basic to mastered. It's way worse for new mechs than the old system.

2 Skill points under the new system take you an average of 46 matches to achieve? Apologies for the crass nature of my ensuing comment but to put it bluntly, how bad are you? Or is this in fact an over dramatisation given that those 2 skill points will cost you a total of 1600 Mech-Exp and 90,000 C-Bills.

In response to the OP certain concessions have to be made under the new system, however, I personally like the new system due to the level of customisation it offers. Is the skill system perfect? No, not in the slightest but there is a logic to it which has been justified. Another point to bear in mind is that this is only the first iteration of the release model, it may take time but I'm sure PGI will adjust it accordingly over time as they gather data and feedback.

My biggest hope, as naive as it maybe, is that these new changes will grant a plethora of viable mech's and builds.

Like any major change, it'll take time for the dust to settle and as far as changes go, this one is earth shaking when it comes to MWO. Especially when you consider how long the previous tree has been in place.

[B0oN]

It´s dangerous to go alone, so take this ...

http://metamechs.com...es/skill-trees/

[PR1VATEER]

Holy SH** this new system blows!!! Not only do I have to re-equip all my mechs with consumables, I have to re skill allocate all my Mechs that I have been doing over the past few years! WAY too much to do. I gave up after doing about five of mechs as it is tedious and boring just clicking stuff until i hit 91 points. Wow, I know we players hate new stuff, but with no guides on what the hell I am supposed to do, and only figured it out (half ***) after just clicking buttons, this was totally out of left field! Ugh......

[TheMurf]

I understand your frustration. I had the same feeling at first but once I started tweaking, man the cost is high for that, I can see the direction it is going just not the logic in most other areas. I think others have voiced very valid points for the direction I hope PGI will listen to.

[Shwinboy]

The Skill tree's added layer of time sucking complexity has sucked a lot of my enthusiasm for this game away. But to be fair I'll start with the good things.

• I like that once set up all my mechs will be good to go. No need to go looking for the modules to re spec them.
  
• Extra consumables are a great idea and fun

What I'd change:

• Give us a simpler UI and economy. At the moment I'm using SP but now there is XP and Gxp and cbills and MC all in the mix WTF. The beauty of the old system was the simplicity.
  
• Give every skill set a sliding bar instead of the click maze we have. With the value clearly shown. This way we can test better what a difference a 0.75% cool down would have or to get the balance of cool run and heat gen just right. I want to work out the difference between torso speed and torso yaw and how much I need of each.
  
• Don't make us buy stuff we don't want to get the stuff we do want and just Make increments of a skill cost more exponentially.
  
• Fix broken duration times on lasers. Speed doesn't count for much anymore against a Dragon quirked to hell with a massive pulse laser alpha.

I really wanted to like it but It's as if someone took my favorite fun thing and said here. Take this test and doo all this studdy testing and homework before you play oh and when you do because balance is really whacked you are going to get one shot killed a lot.


It's a bit of a fail IMO. I don't like it and my enthusiasm for the game has taken a hit.

Edited by Shwinboy, 21 May 2017 - 11:02 PM.

[Dollar Bill]

Coolant, on 21 May 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

Everyone would use the same cookie-cutter skill tree. The way the skill tree is set up now forces you to make concessions if you want something.

Ok then. If PGI is going to force unwanted or useless nodes on us, then PGI needs to stop lying about the player having choice and control over their builds.

Edited by Dollar Bill, 22 May 2017 - 12:08 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Personally, I like the new skill tree..

Yes, they nerfed all the mechs to make room for the tree's improvements..

Yes, they made it so that you can't take everything you want and have to waste resources on unwanted nodes..

But dammit, after I'm done mastering my mech, it feels ALOT better than it used to!

My Cheeta has never been so tanky, and I've never been able to dance circles around a Kodiak with it and live to tell the tale!
My Timby's missiles have never been so effective!
My Shadow Cat has never been so jump jetty! I can now climb the walls on HPG without even thinking about it..

And ALL my mechs can now have the Advanced zoom for peanuts! Those things are cheap now.. Also, how can you not love 2 UAV's AND an arty, or Cool shot?

Ok, some mechs, like assaults are slow and clunky now.. but hey.. at least they are ALL slow and clunky.. And tanky as hell!

Overall, I like the skill tree..

Edited by Vellron2005, 22 May 2017 - 12:17 AM.

[Greyhart]

The new skill tree does what they set out to do and that was make it so you had to make choices.

Could they have done it better - hell yea

Is it better than what was there - yes (low bar).

One of the best or most interesting alternatives to the skill tree I have heard is to change it to sliders, which all interact with each other.