13 replies to this topic

[M3 SABLE]

The common sentiment after the patch seems to be that everyone is upset about the mechs being nerfed

Wasn't the common sentiment prior to this, that the game is in a giant state of a power creep, where everything is too strong and too fast, TTK is too low, and the game does not even feel like Mechwarrior?

It really rustles my jimmies reading that. Especially people who complain about timberwolves and kodiaks being "dead". What a load of ******** lol.

Imo all the mechs should be even further collectively nerfed in agility.

I like playing fast paced, smooth, fluid FPS games... don't get me wrong. I just play Quake Champions Beta and Doom to get a dose of that.

[R Valentine]

TTK hasn't moved an inch. Only the meta have shifted further away from DPS and more towards alpha strike, when it was already heavily alpha strike biased. Now people are just loading up higher alphas and TTK went nowhere. You don't solve TTK by increasing CD. Increasing CD always favors high alpha, and since the survival tree is so weak people just alpha through your 10 extra points of armor and kill you anyways. Nothing is solved.

[M3 SABLE]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 May 2017 - 12:04 PM, said:

TTK hasn't moved an inch. Only the meta have shifted further away from DPS and more towards alpha strike, when it was already heavily alpha strike biased. Now people are just loading up higher alphas and TTK went nowhere. You don't solve TTK by increasing CD. Increasing CD always favors high alpha, and since the survival tree is so weak people just alpha through your 10 extra points of armor and kill you anyways. Nothing is solved.

Relying on high alpha damage output, also means that the style of play during the match, across both parties, will be pretty different. IT means you can not just have constant uptime on your target, and drill them until they die. It also means that it will involve higher risks of overheat, and quite different weaponry used.

Edited by M3 SABLE, 21 May 2017 - 12:10 PM.

[R Valentine]

M3 SABLE, on 21 May 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Relying on high alpha damage output, also means that the style of play during the match, across both parties, will be pretty different. IT means you can not just have constant uptime on your target, and drill them until they die. It also means that it will involve higher risks of overheat, and quite different weaponry used.

Not really. The game was already high alpha based. That's why mechs like the MADIIC and the Night Gyr was so dominant. That's why pop tarting is so prevalent. This patch has only reinforced that meta. I had to dump all of my IS UAC 5 builds because you can't stay on a target long enough to put out meaningful damage.

[Mcgral18]

A decrease of mobility actually entails a decrease of TTK as well

So, while weapons are shooting however marginally slower (or 30%, depending on the robot), you can no longer spread damage

This is painfully true for 100 tonners, but almost universally all chassis got hit
Especially the Spheroid mechs with 35% quirks...

[M3 SABLE]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 May 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

Not really. The game was already high alpha based. That's why mechs like the MADIIC and the Night Gyr was so dominant. That's why pop tarting is so prevalent. This patch has only reinforced that meta. I had to dump all of my IS UAC 5 builds because you can't stay on a target long enough to put out meaningful damage.

And people also say that those mechs were as affected by the nerfs as the other mechs. Especially in terms of agility for Night Gyr it seems. It is clear what to do

[R Valentine]

M3 SABLE, on 21 May 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

And people also say that those mechs were as affected by the nerfs as the other mechs. Especially in terms of agility for Night Gyr it seems. It is clear what to do

Those people are wrong. I've played the Night Gyr almost exclusively since the patch along with my Roughneck. The Night Gyr is just as sweet as it was before. It was never fast or agile, so continuing to not be fast or agile hasn't affected it in the least bit.

[M3 SABLE]

Mcgral18, on 21 May 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

A decrease of mobility actually entails a decrease of TTK as well

So, while weapons are shooting however marginally slower (or 30%, depending on the robot), you can no longer spread damage

This is painfully true for 100 tonners, but almost universally all chassis got hit
Especially the Spheroid mechs with 35% quirks...

It kind of makes sense if the agility is reduced way more than the nerf to the weapon based gameplay. You take almost the same amount of damage as before, but can't spread it.
I for instance, overheat way less with my PPCs than before the patch, all due to the skill tree.
I guess i was wrong. I don't call just for the agility to be nerfed on mechs. Weapons too, absolutely.

Kiran Yagami, on 21 May 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

Those people are wrong. I've played the Night Gyr almost exclusively since the patch along with my Roughneck. The Night Gyr is just as sweet as it was before. It was never fast or agile, so continuing to not be fast or agile hasn't affected it in the least bit.

Highest damage Night Gyrs that I encounter, are almost always the Night Gyrs that jump jet poptart like the Dragon Slayer Victor or Highlanders, from 2013.

Edited by M3 SABLE, 21 May 2017 - 12:31 PM.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 21 May 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

A decrease of mobility actually entails a decrease of TTK as well

So, while weapons are shooting however marginally slower (or 30%, depending on the robot), you can no longer spread damage

This is painfully true for 100 tonners, but almost universally all chassis got hit
Especially the Spheroid mechs with 35% quirks...

Yeah, I don't what kind of brain dead thinking came up with +30% structure and +10% armor will surely make up for the lack of agility.

Agility = survivability


More structure and more armor means you can take at most a few extra hits - and multiplied by 12 it means everyone needs to output more damage (and requires more ammo) to cut through.

Having the agility to make a shot and then avoid return fire grants greater survivability than just more raw hitpoints.

[M3 SABLE]

Ultimax, on 21 May 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

Yeah, I don't what kind of brain dead thinking came up with +30% structure and +10% armor will surely make up for the lack of agility.

Agility = survivability


More structure and more armor means you can take at most a few extra hits - and multiplied by 12 it means everyone needs to output more damage (and requires more ammo) to cut through.

Having the agility to make a shot and then avoid return fire grants greater survivability than just more raw hitpoints.

Due to a variety of mech models, some are just far too well off if their agility is untouched.
For example, Kodiak packs gigantic punch on its torsi, and has a great degree of protection from its arms if it twists fast.

Something like executioner on the other hand, has 90% of its weapons on the low slung arms, which take up lots of space, and are instantly lost the second you start twisting to spread damage. And i am not even talking about the disparity of available weapon loadouts.

Balancing that does not sound like a good idea with simply increasing armor value. Slicing Kodiak's agility sounds like a way better solution.

While even though EXE got its nerf in agility too, it still has MASC to one up Kodiak at least in something.

Edited by M3 SABLE, 21 May 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[Ultimax]

M3 SABLE, on 21 May 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

Due to a variety of mech models, some are just far too well off if their agility is untouched.
For example, Kodiak packs gigantic punch on its torsi, and has a great degree of protection from its arms if it twists fast.

Yes, except the KDK now can't twist fast no matter how much tonnage you pump into engine so it just eats bullets with poor ability to spread any of it - that's a reduction in survivability for the KDK, DWF and Atlas - all of which were nerfed in this way.

M3 SABLE, on 21 May 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

Something like executioner on the other hand, has 90% of its weapons on the low slung arms, which take up lots of space, and are instantly lost the second you start twisting to spread damage. And i am not even talking about the disparity of available weapon loadouts.

The EXE's problem has always been a terrible set of locked equipment that PGI just refuses to budge on.

It's saddled with EIGHT TONS of loljets that PGI refuses to buff. Instead they add a bunch of crappy JJ skills.

M3 SABLE, on 21 May 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

While even though EXE got its nerf in agility too, it still has MASC to one up Kodiak at least in something.

The EXE has higher base agility scores than every other clan Assault and Heavy mech except for these three:

Gargyole
Summoner
Linebacker


It has better agility than the TBR, EBJ & HBR - which honestly doesn't make any sense.

Edited by Ultimax, 21 May 2017 - 06:57 PM.

[sycocys]

I haven't tested a ton of mechs, but almost all of my builds are ML/MPL/SRM range brawlers - the only one that I can tell that took a real noticeable hit so far is the Warhawk - most of that is due to the fact that it looks like a small washing machine though, still did plenty of damage just couldn't put the incoming stuff on the arms.

Not hating that though, that's kind of how it should be. Big mechs shouldn't be able to flail around there just so much tonnage to try to move around.

Most of the lights, meds, and heavies I tried though still felt pretty arcade mode, especially if you put just a few points into the mobility tree - that I'm not a fan of at all.

[Magnus Santini]

Any increase in survival time is at the fringes. So you can take more shots, or a couple spread shots from two enemies, but still not run straight into the whole enemy team. If you are rarely out of position you may see that you survive trades longer. If your team has an emergency response time of +/- 15 minutes, sometimes they will manage to show up under the new system. What makes it interesting is that the enemy is not so predictable in its capability anymore.

[Zolaz]

MWO weapons fire about twice as fast as tabletop values. They gave everyone twice as much armor, but that doesnt help when you are focused by more than one person. PGI hasnt stopped tinkering or fooling with the numbers under the hood since the game started. A year from now, PGI will be doing the same thing.

Hard to build a wall, when everyone is crowded around trying to make one brick.