82 replies to this topic

[SmokedJag]

Oh no, people might have to spend a few points that everyone used to run anyway to negate the advantage other players get from buffing a weapon system with their points. The horror, the horror.

[Willard Phule]

sycocys, on 21 May 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

How to nerf LRMs --

Double their damage.
Require that other mechs need to have a 1 ton 1 slot computer installed to share locks and data.
Require that the LRM mech has a 3 ton 1 slot computer to receive the targeting data.

OR.....require TAG on other mechs to "request LRM support?"

[Khobai]

I dont believe LRMs need to be nerfed

But the whole information warfare/ECM/radar derp/sensor/LRM part of the game needs a major update

[Greyhart]

Really is not the easiest Nerf to LRMs a buff to AMS fire rate?

Then those that really hate LRMs can take AMS at a cost of 1ton (including half a ton of ammo).

Or is it really just a case of I don't like LRMs but I am not willing to do anything about it so someone else has to do something for me. These people will be the sort that stand behind buildings and poke whilst the real mechwarriors are pushing enemy lines.

[Agent 0range]

Koniving, on 22 May 2017 - 12:30 AM, said:

I know it's a joke, but if you want to simultaineously nerf the annoyance of LRMs and buff their usefulness...

Double their damage.
Half their firing rate.
Increase their speed by another 60m/s to 120m/s.
Reduce their turning capability (proportionately to the speed increase). Artemis allows more course corrections as it does currently. TAG allows for the turns to be 25% sharper. Combine for 25% more turns and 25% sharper turns. Give NARC same effect as TAG. (Do not change lock time bonuses.)
Increase their arc significantly.
Reduce the number of missiles per ton to 120 to 140 without mad missile packin' skillz.

They hit hard. (And feel like missiles.)
They fire less often. (No more pointless spam).
They are very fast.
They can't turn for crap, so they can still be dodged at long ranges.
They fly up and over, allowing them to be useful against sniper mechs (which tend to be slow enough to not evade their missiles).
Since LRMs deliver far more damage and fire less often, having so much ammo for the 'waste' fire is not necessary. Though the reduced ammo does require you to be a little more tactful with your missiles.

There, a serious nerf/buff of LRMs with the idea of making them viably useful while keeping co-op play (TAG, NARC and self-Artemis) and counter play in mind.

we had LRM dropping from height before it was fun headshotting people with lurms

[Karl Streiger]

Agent 0range, on 22 May 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

we had LRM dropping from height before it was fun headshotting people with lurms

only when the target keeps stationary.
They will not track movement that good - so keep mobile would be a good defense vs LRMs (btw its already the best defense much better than cover alone)

[sycocys]

Nerfing LRMs: Plan 2 --

Quadruple their damage.


-- They still wouldn't be a good weapon system, but might be semi-useful as an actual support/secondary weapon once you are actually engaged with an enemy.

LRM/Lock weapons and the Information concept needs to be completely overhauled.

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 22 May 2017 - 12:52 AM, said:

No its no joke - LRMs need to be viable when used with LOS - in this field they suck - the only power they own is to hit targets you don't see - so you need to nerf this ability.

With a high arc (long travel times) plus highly reduced turn ability (maybe much more spread) they become the artillery weapon.

An alternative might approach when PGI get their ATM dynamic damage system on the road.
In this case - you might have two modes - direct fire - high velocity missiles with adequate damage - or indirect low velocity low damage.

An third alternative - turn omnipotent indirect LRMs - into semi guided LRMs - TAG or NARC are needed without LOS

I meant The OP's call to nerf the hell out of LRMs is a joke and I knew it. (Though I'm not sure if that's what you meant or not.)

Also LRMs are meant to be an artillery weapon; they replaced the Mech Mortars because they did the same thing plus some tracking ability.
This is included in case if there are people whom need a visualization for what a mortar is.


IS LRMs are fired at a ballistic launch angle, the same angle as mortars, or artillery rockets.
The Catapult's design is stated in the 1980s to have been inspired by the American MLRS:

In fact, the weird protrusions on the knees of the Catapult exist because the mech was envisioned to enter a kneeling/braced state before firing its missiles for best accuracy. Firing while mobile is always possible but you may notice that by design, BT decreases accuracy with movement of both the attacker and the target; this is similarly inspired by the same core concept as bracing to fire.
(LRM minimum range also came from the MLRS ranges, although it was changed to meters. Even the 30 meter per hex was inspired by stats of the MLRS.)

Short story, LRMs are meant to fire up and over like artillery. So we should have it that way.

Agent 0range, on 22 May 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

we had LRM dropping from height before it was fun headshotting people with lurms

O.o; They were lots of fun back then. Lightning quick, super deadly depending on the mech you had (due to explosive splash and a core code in the grenade damage class [which is what missiles use in MWO] where it'd multiply the damage to the point SRMs were doing 25 damage per missile at max; imagine what a 1.8 damage LRM was doing back then if SRMs were just 2 damage...

But they were dodgeable. We had no AMS. And they were lots of fun. And my god, look at that arc. Straight down; no more camp warrior if you got spotted.

Edited by Koniving, 22 May 2017 - 06:11 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Double their damage.
Half their firing rate.

double damage seems excessive.

I think probably more like 50% more damage and 33% less firing rate.

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 22 May 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

I meant The OP's call to nerf the hell out of LRMs is a joke and I knew it. (Though I'm not sure if that's what you meant or not.)

do you mean i did take the bait??

But but - i mean look its like with poptarts - they nerfed the jump jets until they are only useful for poptarting nothing else.
same with LRM they nerfed and buffed the hell out of LRMs until they are only useful for indirect fire (if you don't use those freaking light weight Clan LRMs that allow a decent primary armament plus LRMs)

So the cure is not to nerf but to buff.
Buff LRMs until it becomes a "real" choice to add a single LRM15 or LRM20 to your AS7-K ZEU-6S. Simple because they perform good when you have LOS - and a faster speed plus and less guidance is the goal.

I loved LRMs most when they had the splash damage simple because they worked great with in unison with the Highlanders / Atlas GaussRifle.

[Shifty McSwift]

Koniving, on 22 May 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

I meant The OP's call to nerf the hell out of LRMs is a joke and I knew it. (Though I'm not sure if that's what you meant or not.)




O.o; They were lots of fun back then. Lightning quick, super deadly depending on the mech you had (due to explosive splash and a core code in the grenade damage class [which is what missiles use in MWO] where it'd multiply the damage to the point SRMs were doing 25 damage per missile at max; imagine what a 1.8 damage LRM was doing back then if SRMs were just 2 damage...

But they were dodgeable. We had no AMS. And they were lots of fun. And my god, look at that arc. Straight down; no more camp warrior if you got spotted.

I would love for those missile trajectories to make a reappearance, but it wouldn't need to be LRMs necessarily. An artillery style rocket barrage weapon like that could be sweet in a lot of ways, add some variability before ATMs and the like.

High flight fast moving missiles with a range of 400 or 500, seems interesting enough.

[cazidin]

Mystere, on 21 May 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

You're not fooling me, cazidin.




Hmm!

You're too late! I've apparently fooled 3 pages worth of people!

Otto Cannon, on 21 May 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

This seems fair and reasonable to finally balance the OP superweapon which has always dominated competitive play and ensured that only noobs and filthy casuals use those weak pinpoint damage direct fire weapons.

I'm glad that you understand the TRUE power of LRMs and why they must be nerfed back!

Shifty McSwift, on 22 May 2017 - 12:14 AM, said:

Well that is why they call them Luxury Repair Missiles.

Good idea!

Vellron2005, on 22 May 2017 - 12:26 AM, said:

+1

OP, seems to me you must have met me in my LURM Dog on the battlefield, cose' you obviously have a beef against LRMs.. you cray cray..

I suggest you go out, have a few drinks, meditate, and then come back.. you'll feel better and won't make such ridiculous posts..

Thank you but perhaps, my friend, you should consider reviewing my post and meditating on it first?

Shifty McSwift, on 22 May 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

But its cazidin... It's his thing..

Shh...

RestosIII, on 22 May 2017 - 02:06 AM, said:

If Cazidin stops making posts like these, he's been replaced by a Synth and must be avenged.

Did you (or anyone else) think I had been replaced by a Synth when I made my skill tree guide?

[Novakaine]

Vellron2005, on 22 May 2017 - 12:26 AM, said:

+1

OP, seems to me you must have met me in my LURM Dog on the battlefield, cose' you obviously have a beef against LRMs.. you cray cray..

I suggest you go out, have a few drinks, meditate, and then come back.. you'll feel better and won't make such ridiculous posts..

Seriously did you not notice my signature, obviously I've slapped dat clan arse around one time to many.
Damn dat Stalker.
I'm sure I've got some sceenies somewhere.
Anyway check below for more information.
Oh and meditation is is for pansies.

[Ced Riggs]

If LRMs get their range nerfed to ~600m, potatoes would accidentially become effective. Say no to LRM nerfs.

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 22 May 2017 - 06:06 AM, said:

double damage seems excessive.

I think probably more like 50% more damage and 33% less firing rate.

The reason for double damage is this:
LRM damage source: 1. Armor/structure: 1. Firing rate: 1 per 10 seconds. Effective LRM to HP ratio: 1, if you land 1 volley.

MWO LRM damage: 1. Armor/Structure: 2 + 'quirks' + 'skillz'. Firing rate: 3 or more per 10 seconds. Effective LRM to HP ratio: 1.5 assuming you land 3 volleys (not getting into quirks and skillz, as this increases armor/structure by many variables and increases firing rate by many variables.)

After change:LRM damage: 2. Armor/Structure: 2 + quirks + skillz. Firing rate 1.5 or more per 10 seconds. Effective LRM to HP ratio: 1.5, provided you land 1.5 volleys per ten seconds. (In other words: Keeping things equal and as "balanced" as they currently are. Just less spam, more umph, same DPS, less load on servers.)

If your change:
LRM damage 1.5. Armor/Structure: 2 + quirks + skillz: Firing rate: (3-33%) 2.01 or more. Effective LRM to HP ratio: 1.5075 if you land 2.01 volleys per ten seconds.

Your change is technically a super slight buff to DPS, but you still gotta land those shots a bit more often than with mine, even if it's still 33% less often than PGI's current setting. You also gotta endure that heat more often than mine, but 33% less often than PGI's. It'd improve some tactics regarding LRMs as mine would. It does surprisingly keep it in a similar ballpark to mine and the original which I didn't expect. Those hits wouldn't feel as satisfying as they would with my settings, though but certainly more than PGI's.

Would you change anything else about the LRMs? I also added speed, reduced tracking, increased arc, reduced ammo... The overall idea behind mine was to cut the spam and annoyance, make missiles feel like missiles by giving them that visceral feel that they have in tabletop (instead of cheap machine gun pellets) and to make them a bit more useful as a tactical/strategic weapon while keeping counter play in mind.

The 3 shot rating from MWO is based on Mechwarrior Online's LRM-20. (I know it's slightly better than 3, but this kept it simplified. The ratio of damage to HP between my firing rate, its firing rate, and your firing rate would still be identical if we used the 100% accurate firing rate straight from Smurfy).

Edited by Koniving, 22 May 2017 - 06:44 AM.

[InspectorG]

cazidin, on 21 May 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

What does everybody think of my fair and reasonable proposed changes?

Why nerf such a crap weapon?

Wait till the event is over and the Skill Tree settles in, people will migrate back to real weapons.

[Dogstar]

If we're speaking personally then this is how I'd nerf LRMS:

Triple the velocity
Triple the damage
Cut lock time to 0.1 of a millisecond
Set spread to 5mm

[CJ Daxion]

cazidin, on 21 May 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple idea. Let's nerf LRMs! (Again.)

Here's how I'd nerf LRMs, personally.

Maximum range reduced to 600m.
Damage reduced to 0.9 per missile for IS and 0.8 per missile for Clan.
Heat increased by 10.5%.
Velocity reduced to 80 M/s.
Lock can only be established on direct fire and with TAG.
Artemis effects reduced by roughly 30%.
Crit chance reduced to negative values. You now have a small chance to actually restore health to your target up to 110% of their armor values.
LRMs now travel in a direct arc and will hit every single small rock in their path, like an Assault trying to navigate rocky terrain.
Ghost heat on LRMs changed. Firing 2 or more LRM5s, 1 or more LRM10s, or even having equipped LRM15s and LRM20s will incur a significant heat penalty.

Mad Dog and Archer given negative quirks. Catapult OK.

What does everybody think of my fair and reasonable proposed changes?

honestly are you high, because i need some of that stuff!


The only change that LRM's need IMO are, for indirect fire to need UAV, tag, or Narc..

Though i would really love a travel arc buff combined with that. Indirect fire, would be a higher arc, using those tools, Direct fire when those tools not in use a slightly lower one. (still high enough to go over mechs in between you, aka front line heavies, but not so high to greatly increase travel time.


the one nerf they do need, is a reduced flash on LRM5 chains, the blinding is real, and is an issue.



BUt really the simple way to nerf LRM's.. PRESS W!

Edited by CJ Daxion, 22 May 2017 - 08:17 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Best way to nerf LRMs is for the complainers to uninstall MWO.

[Mystere]

Koniving, on 22 May 2017 - 12:30 AM, said:

I know it's a joke ...

Good for you!

I pity the others, though.

Edited by Mystere, 22 May 2017 - 11:00 AM.