284 replies to this topic

[Crockdaddy]

I'd love a pug only queue lolz. If only there were enough pugs to make it happen with zero wait times. Imagine ... taking just one BLR with ERLL the entire game .... full skill tree ... standing back. 3000 damage games would be the starting point. Or from the clan side a Hunchie IIC with ERPPC.

[MischiefSC]

meteorol, on 22 May 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:

Sure, it's an opinion you are entitled to have. Sadly for CW, it's an opinion the vast majority of this games playerbase (probably 90+%) does not share.

For the longest time of CWs existence, it has been a ghost town. It has been a ghost town when we only had CW maps. Given this game has no lore/immersion/space politics/logistics both in CW and QP, the main difference between CW and QP were

• Respawns
  
• Matchmaking
  
• Maps

Now, those three things made the difference for 90% of this games playerbase (or whatever the actual number is, don't pin me down on it, but it's probably undisputable that the vast majority of the community doens't play CW). Respawns are something that are constantly asked for for QP (pretty much since CB), so they are probably not the main factor when it comes to why people hate CW and left it in droves during phase 1-3. Leaves matchmaking and mapdesign.


Whichever you want to put more blame on, PGIs approach for CW failed, and it failed hard.

On any given night I bet you more people are in CW than in Group Queue.

Should probably shut down group queue. Because 90% of players really only want to play QP, but with some new maps and modes sometimes.

Bad logic is bad. Yes, FW needs a lot of things to be appealing - however it needs to be appealing to the groups and teams. It was never there to be appealing to casual pugs.

[MischiefSC]

Crockdaddy, on 22 May 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

I'd love a pug only queue lolz. If only there were enough pugs to make it happen with zero wait times. Imagine ... taking just one BLR with ERLL the entire game .... full skill tree ... standing back. 3000 damage games would be the starting point. Or from the clan side a Hunchie IIC with ERPPC.

Laservomit Hunchie. ERPPCs are great at range but it's hard to farm 48 mechs fast enough and hard enough. 2 LPL, 4CERML with all the range stuff is quite sufficient and lets you keep up enough abuse to get proper farming done.

I know that we would appreciate having a big floppy straw hat and a pitchfork on our mechs for when we've got a full crop to farm.

[naterist]

considering how fp is the only thing making this an mmo and not an xbox live simulator, i think it should be appealing to new players, but those new players should have a goal going in to join a unit and get with a consistent group, but its up to pgi to reward that behavior and to facilitate it in game. since pgi shows no inclination of addressing those issues in game, were it would affect the players who need it, then a solo que is the next best option.

[TWIAFU]

naterist, on 22 May 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

considering how fp is the only thing making this an mmo and not an xbox live simulator, i think it should be appealing to new players, but those new players should have a goal going in to join a unit and get with a consistent group, but its up to pgi to reward that behavior and to facilitate it in game. since pgi shows no inclination of addressing those issues in game, were it would affect the players who need it, then a solo que is the next best option.

I get what your trying to say, but how?

What reward could PGI grant to active CW Units, beyond what they grant now, to get players to form a CW Unit?

More reward for the bigger the unit? *giggity*

Is it a reward for just being in a Unit? Does the reward, if XP/Cbill, bonus, work if not in CW? Why, why not?

Does Unit bonus and Faction Loyalty bonus stack?

Bonus dependent for length of time in Unit?




How does PGI motivate and reward random humans to forms groups and stay within those groups?

[Chagatay]

TWIAFU, on 22 May 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

I get what your trying to say, but how?
What reward could PGI grant to active CW Units, beyond what they grant now, to get players to form a CW Unit?
More reward for the bigger the unit? *giggity*
Is it a reward for just being in a Unit? Does the reward, if XP/Cbill, bonus, work if not in CW? Why, why not?
Does Unit bonus and Faction Loyalty bonus stack?
Bonus dependent for length of time in Unit?
How does PGI motivate and reward random humans to forms groups and stay within those groups?

They do it by not allowing people to drop solo in FW.
Solves all the "problems" though I am pretty sure that this cure is worse than the disease.
Only one way to find out...

[Crockdaddy]

MischiefSC, on 22 May 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

Laservomit Hunchie. ERPPCs are great at range but it's hard to farm 48 mechs fast enough and hard enough. 2 LPL, 4CERML with all the range stuff is quite sufficient and lets you keep up enough abuse to get proper farming done.

I know that we would appreciate having a big floppy straw hat and a pitchfork on our mechs for when we've got a full crop to farm.

Its pug on pub ... you are very much over thinking it. Call the match and use your little puggie shields properly.

[IraqiWalker]

The part that boggles my mind is the whole "I don't have the time to commit to a unit" mentality.

What do you think this is? The U.S.M.C!? There are literally no schedules to keep, unless you want to be in the competitive group, of that unit. When I was in HHoD we had about 30 people who were doing competitive stuff. The other 400+ were all casuals. I swear there were months where they did not see me online at all. When I go into CW, I pop open TS, say hi to the familiar, and new faces, and we start dropping together, and goofing around.

Units don't do "drills". Or scheduled game time. Just show up whenever you want, and you'll have a bunch of people who are preemptively friendly to you, and will help you out. You don't even need to speak, as long as you can follow the orders, and be aware of the situation.

[50 50]

MischiefSC, on 22 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

On any given night I bet you more people are in CW than in Group Queue.

Should probably shut down group queue. Because 90% of players really only want to play QP, but with some new maps and modes sometimes.

Bad logic is bad. Yes, FW needs a lot of things to be appealing - however it needs to be appealing to the groups and teams. It was never there to be appealing to casual pugs.

The problem there is while the mode is 'exclusive' and therefore doesn't cater to the majority, it continues to fall down the development priority list as well.
Why on earth waste time and money developing a mode that only caters to a small portion of the population?
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
While the attitude to keep the mode exclusive, must only be played by groups, must outright prevent players because of X Y or Z.... Faction Play will never get the attention it actually needs to be a successful mode.

Right at this point, it would be just as effective to add drop decks and the Siege maps to the private lobby and say: "There you go, all done".

However, to write it off in such a way would be an absolute shame for a mode that could offer so much not only to the big teams, but also to solo/casual players.
The current approach is too restrictive.
It's also a path that we have meandered down now for a couple of years and while there has been some good changes along the way, I would say it hasn't really achieved the goals it was meant to.

Splitting the mode into solo queue and group queue is an option, just not a great one.
The structure of the mode still has all the same problems regardless of how many different queues it might have and you could guarantee that any split of the queue will severely impact the other big negative on the mode, the wait times.

The mode simply doesn't offer enough to the overall population over what quick play does to increase the player numbers and therefore divert development attention to the mode as it's primary focus. We need that to change and that means taking a different approach.

[BearFlag]

meteorol, on 22 May 2017 - 03:08 AM, said:

And this is the same answer that has lead to CW being a deserted wasteland pretty much no one cares for.

This playerbase is, as a whole, way too casual, and the average skill floor is way too low for "git gud or join a unit" fixing anything. People won't git gud, and they won't join a unit, they will simply abandon CW and never look back, which they did in droves.

On top of that, the vast majority of players that got extremely gud and are able to dominate in a highly competitive environment left CW aswell, because they grew tired of playing with and against the average sub-T5 players that populate CW. There is a reason for the fact that not a single of MWOs top tier unit plays CW regulary, and it's not that this gamemode is too competitive for them (kek).

When giving the same answer for 4 years doesn't work at all to populate CW, maybe it's time to reconsider the answer? PGIs "no regulation this is oh so hardcore" approach obviously failed. It trainwrecked hard.

Isn't even worth debating about though. CW is done. PGI won't do anything to revive it.

Spot on.

After two and a half years, it's a fair bet that PGI missed the train before it wrecked.

It was never "meant" to be a comp mode and PGI still clearly ~acts~ as if it's not (but surely knows better). Their apology screen (which was added later), is clearly at odds with as-built design. Players are "warned" and then promptly ~invited~ with Call to Arms. Low tier players are invited, pugs are allowed, solos beckoned and trial mechs welcomed. This not "design for comp". If the Seahawks get matched up against a Pop Warner team, you've got a serious problem.

It devolved into comp; it didn't start that way. After the Stocking Stuffer ended in Jan 2015, the rot set in big-time.

We could rehash the many flaws of CW like spawn camping, drawn out slaughters, matchmaker, but it's all been said.

The big mistake, the REALLY big mistake, was enabling then allowing comp to take over the mode. If you want "comp" the better place is in tournaments, events and/or campaigns (for that purpose) - not in what was billed as and intended to be the game's universe. This is where deeper engagement with the game was going happen, you know, immersion (*cough). It was pitched as and should have been the raison d'etre for MWO and its players. A fun and convincing universe for all players to jump into.

Instead, immense resources have been burned launching, wrecking and repainting the train pile to create a 5% playground. Ironically, MWO's main game mode is arguably and still QP.

As for numbers, we all remember well when ZERO players were queued after FP3. During the 'good times' you could see 200, even 300, queued or in game. This is relative, of course. It's still a pathetic number. Now the numbers are hidden behind an uninformative lobby/queue system. But before starting this post, I checked and saw that 20 games had been completed in that most recent hour. If players were all uniquely queued, the absolute max number would 480 players. But most players are requeuing. For the low end, if we assume all are requeues and managing two games per hour, a minimum would be 240 players.

So, historically there's strong participation by CW standards. But still pathetic from a business perspective. I can't imagine how Russ justifies putting hours into this mode. It's clearly and objectively a failure at this point.

We've debated this for 2.5 years. We've talked about this and that mechanic to make it "better." I won't beat around the bush any more. IF the goal for FW is business, is numbers, is participation by thousands, then comp IS the biggest problem. If that's not the goal, then FW is a sandbox for a small minority and...

1) stop investing time in it
2) eliminate Call to Arms
3) gate by tier, trial mech and others

Either make it comp or make it mass market. This hybrid only harms the game.

Edited by BearFlag, 22 May 2017 - 08:37 PM.

[MischiefSC]

There is no 'comp' in FW. There's people who play pretty well and actually want to win when they enter the match and there's people who want it to be pug queue with a matchmaker, bring bad builds, play badly and ignore the team.

That's it.

If you had respawn in group queue it would play the same way, with a matchmaker. Exactly the same as FW does right now. Just more ruthless.

If you had respawns in pug queue it would often go the same way, the exact same way, with just 3 or so good players on one side and mediocre people on the other. It would be slaughters, farmed in the dropzone.

People get farmed in the dropzone because they made poor choices. Full stop. That's it. Quit trying to conflate 'not being terrible' with 'comp'. There's a lot of space between those concepts.

Spawn camping happens because the game has respawns. 12 v 1 rolls happen in QP with a matchmaker, no teams and no respawns. If it had respawns, where do those 11 people go? Are they required to go wait at the 50 yard line for the ref? The guys who got smashed, how much time do they get? 30 seconds? 2 minutes? 10? To do whatever magical thing they're supposed to do this time they didn't do last time. Wherever they exit the magic safety hug-box zone is where they're going to get farmed again.

I've seen these complaints a lot of times. I've played thousands of matches in FW, a lot of it pugging, a lot of it grouping with different skill levels of players. What the main complaint is, deep down....

is that nobody wants to play against someone who is trying harder than they are. I won't say 'better' because there's nothing the good teams are doing that everyone else can't.

It's so simple. So stupidly ******* simple.

1. Bring good mechs and make smart choices in the skill tree.

2. Communicate and coordinate with your team.

3. Focus on winning more than you focus on padding your own stats.

That's it. Those 3 things. That's the beginning, the middle and the end of what separates the best teams in FW from everyone else. There's nothing in that, nothing at all, that requires Teamspeak.

So when you talk about making it 'mass market' you're going to need to remove respawns, have a matchmaker and have some way of letting bad players who play badly only play with bad players who play badly.

Which is to say, make it like QP but with respawns. Which will still involve spawn camping.

Edited by MischiefSC, 22 May 2017 - 08:32 PM.

[KingCobra]

Crockdaddy, on 22 May 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

I'd love a pug only queue lolz. If only there were enough pugs to make it happen with zero wait times. Imagine ... taking just one BLR with ERLL the entire game .... full skill tree ... standing back. 3000 damage games would be the starting point. Or from the clan side a Hunchie IIC with ERPPC.

Actually there are enough pugs to fill out PUG Vs PUG battles in FP 24/7 this was evident by how many PUGS turned out to play in the tukkayyid event.

Don't get me wrong I played FP as a PUG and in units both are rewarding game play as long as its not UNITS VS PUG battles.Plus I think if PGI gave a big effort to freshen up the rewards system along with splitting the FP queues it might revitalize the FP game mode.

P.S I also think a new Social lobby system is needed badly for unit formation and recruitment as well as new player retention and player interaction on a tab in the main UI.

Edited by KingCobra, 22 May 2017 - 08:42 PM.

[Trenchbird]

Considering how many CSJ, CGB, and CJF 12-mans I dropped against in Tuk 3, you will get no sympathy from me.

Learn to fight 12-mans... By making your own 12-man group and being better than the other 12-man. And bring the right mechs.

Bam, problem solved.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

There is a lot of "Comp" play being mentioned here but I don't think a lot of people actually truly understand the difference between competition play and just dropping a 12 man in FW even at a Tier 1 level the two is nowhere near the same thing

FW is continually broken when you have 12 mans units against pugs but putting that on the flipside in the que that usually is all there is for matchups (not that the Pug team can't actually win against a 12 man it is possible)

As mentioned a few times it's players bringing in bad mechs and making Terrible decisions and not working as a team which leads to the drop zones being camped out.

[KingCobra]

Chocowolf Sradac, on 22 May 2017 - 09:44 PM, said:

There is a lot of "Comp" play being mentioned here but I don't think a lot of people actually truly understand the difference between competition play and just dropping a 12 man in FW even at a Tier 1 level the two is nowhere near the same thing

FW is continually broken when you have 12 mans units against pugs but putting that on the flipside in the que that usually is all there is for matchups (not that the Pug team can't actually win against a 12 man it is possible)

As mentioned a few times it's players bringing in bad mechs and making Terrible decisions and not working as a team which leads to the drop zones being camped out.

I agree with you on most of your post the thing PGI and a lot of players do not understand is after 10+ battles most solo/pug/casual players just wont play FP because of the ROFLSTOMPS by units because of such a high skill gap.

If PGI split the FP queues for real like solo play pugs/casuals/solo players could learn the ropes of FP and the mech load-outs and skills at a pace that would retain them in MWO and not rage quit and uninstall or never go back and try FP again.

Plus after playing in the FP PUG VS PUG queues for a bit they would migrate over and join units for more competitive play.

For 4+ years now UNITS have been feeding on this games players until they have basically killed FP and almost killed of MWO for good.Russ needs to really wake up and smell the coffee.

Edited by KingCobra, 22 May 2017 - 09:57 PM.

[McHoshi]

KingCobra, on 21 May 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

FP will be almost dead as long as PGI allows UNITS Vs PUGS its as simple as that.

When PGI gets smart and splits the FP queues PUG Vs PUG ans UNIT vs UNIT only then will I go back and play FP until them its


HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Tired of the STOMPS or Tired of SEALCLUBBING.

Come on! FP was never designed for PUGS. If you wanna Pug then do it in QP.
If you wanna stand a chance in FP - build up at least a PREMADE.

[KingCobra]

McHoshi, on 22 May 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

Come on! FP was never designed for PUGS. If you wanna Pug then do it in QP.
If you wanna stand a chance in FP - build up at least a PREMADE.

Look at my tag in game ? FP vet beta1 been with units played as a pug but FP is not just about units its about a game mode everyone should enjoy and spend money on not just years of units telling RUSS (YA LETS MAKE IT A E-SPORT) and all will be well.

As you can see this philosophy has killed FP and this game by driving more players away than carter has pills 500,000+ uninstalls in 4+years.

So I personally say its time for a change in FP and the game itself but I'm probably just wasting my time to think PGI will change before this game dies.

Edited by KingCobra, 22 May 2017 - 10:38 PM.

[DarklightCA]

The problem isn't Units or groups, that's the entire point of Faction Play or it was supposed to be. You can solo, put out 2k-3k damage with 12+ kills and lose not because you are facing a Unit but because of the massive skill difference between the two sides along with the fact that Unit was likely coordinated a lot better.

I've seen 12 man units lose to a bunch of mix bag players simply because there wasn't as much skill gap between the two teams and the pug team bothered to coordinate.

Which is the entire problem with solo dropping and why groups hold the advantage because you can't guarantee that level of coordination or skill as a solo queuer, you completely gamble who your team whereas groups dictate who they drop with. You are given every tool to group up with other players and dictate that outcome but you still choose to solo queue and gamble. If you lose that's entirely on you.

[meteorol]

MischiefSC, on 22 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

On any given night I bet you more people are in CW than in Group Queue.

Should probably shut down group queue. Because 90% of players really only want to play QP, but with some new maps and modes sometimes.

Bad logic is bad. Yes, FW needs a lot of things to be appealing - however it needs to be appealing to the groups and teams. It was never there to be appealing to casual pugs.

I'm playing group queue every night. The wait time is no where near as long as in CW (really not even close), and that is while CW has a combined queue for solo and group players, (means potentially more players if it wasn't as bad as it is) of which the majority are probably dropping solo. For my last 30 CW drops, i ran into a premade larger of 4 a grand total of 5 times. More importantly, i can get a drop in group queue any time of the day, while i did spent 3 hours in CW queue during offhours without getting a drop.

The group queue, using only group players is nowhere near as deserted as CW with both group and solo players.

If you want to argue that PGIs approach to CW failed horribly, go ahead. But the evidence it failed is there, right infront of everyones eyes. CW started losing players in droves not after months, but weeks of its initial release.

Edit: That aside, i never said anything about shutting down CW. I just said it is bad (which it is) and it will go nowhere, because PGI cares even less for it than the majority of the playerbase.

Furthermore, i compared CW to quickplay as a whole, which are totally different gamemodes, while you changed the premise of the argument by comparing it to group queue, which is not a different gamemode, but a matchmaking queue of said gamemode. Dropping a "bad logic is bad" after changing the premise of an argument is... i'll just stop here.

It's not like there is something to discuss here. CW is done, and it won't change. PGI probably doesn't care. They have the numbers, they have seen they dropped the ball, they very likely have no intentions of picking it up again.

Edited by meteorol, 23 May 2017 - 07:26 AM.

[DarklightCA]

KingCobra, on 22 May 2017 - 10:37 PM, said:

Look at my tag in game ? FP vet beta1 been with units played as a pug but FP is not just about units its about a game mode everyone should enjoy and spend money on not just years of units telling RUSS (YA LETS MAKE IT A E-SPORT) and all will be well.

As you can see this philosophy has killed FP and this game by driving more players away than carter has pills 500,000+ uninstalls in 4+years.

So I personally say its time for a change in FP and the game itself but I'm probably just wasting my time to think PGI will change before this game dies.

First of all FP is designed around units conquering planets in a non-matchmaking environment in which doesn't penalize groups unlike PGI's more solo friendly game mode QP. The fact solo players ignored their welcome message like all the other players who cry on the forums about how units are ruining the game doesn't change that fact.

Second of all grouping up, joining a unit and coordinating with them is not e-sports and never has PGI taken that direction with FP. The only e-sports related thing they have ever created was their World Championships along with supporting the many player created and driven tournaments over the years.

There are SO MANY reasons why people stopped playing Faction Play, the fact it's a poorly designed piece of **** being one for starters but sure blame all the Units and Groups playing in a game mode supported by that action simply because they stomp all over players who ignored the welcome message and reality of that game mode.