32 replies to this topic

[Daecollo]

Since it does not give you a proper warning and GMs cannot fix respec please make it free. Too many people are getting screwed because there is no proper warning to respec+saving. I myself have just stopped buying things. I have a completely worthless mech now because the game did not explain what would happen after you respec'd.


THAT IS NOT A RESPEC. There is no proper warning in the game that tells you what happens! If it is that huge there should be warning signs all over the place!

Respec is simple. You have 91 points, click respec. You get to spend them on anything you want. With a cost. THAT is a REAL respec and how it has worked in every single game but this one!

Edited by Daecollo, 23 May 2017 - 10:52 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Warning or no warning, there shouldn't be a cost to repec into a node you already purchased. I mean you already have to grind out tons of C-bills and XP to unlock maybe 150+ nodes in order to be able to experiment with your skill builds. Adding a fairly huge XP requirement on top of that just to re-use a node you already purchased is insult to injury.

Honestly this is one of the few issues I have with the new Skill Tree system. The other is that we should be able to go to the testing grounds and test out various builds BEFORE we commit the points. I have at least 2-3 sacrificial mechs that I threw a test build on to see what effect a specific build had on them that now have between 30-50 wasted points on them that I will now have to regrind due to this missing feature.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 23 May 2017 - 11:49 AM.

[Athom83]

You you really have to make multiple topics every day of the same topic?

And no, not every game does the respec the way you describe. And even those that do work the way you describe have a cost for doing so. Several even do it almost exactly the way MWO is doing it. While I agree we need a better UI and a way to test before finalizing, its not the system that is flawed. Its the user.

Edited by Athom83, 23 May 2017 - 01:12 PM.

[Ghogiel]

F2P baggage. Even Sub and B2P do this to a similar extent too.

[Daecollo]

Athom83, on 23 May 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

You you really have to make multiple topics every day of the same topic?

And no, not every game does the respec the way you describe. And even those that do work the way you describe have a cost for doing so. Several even do it almost exactly the way MWO is doing it. While I agree we need a better UI and a way to test before finalizing, its not the system that is flawed. Its the user.

Wait what?

What game does respec different? Name one.

Also, I didn't say they didn't. The cost just isn't so steep and dumb.

So the user is supposed to predict the future and be a mind reader? I didn't know! I guess I will bring my money elsewhere! Since its the 'users' fault he didn't know the future!

[James The Fox Dixon]

No, keep the costs and for people that complain about it double the price for each time they complain.

[Pixel Hunter]

from a gameplay perspective if they truly did the skill tree for mech versitility reasons then it should always be free to respec the mech.

[Davegt27]

just like when game stop first started we tried telling you kids your getting screwed

[Felicitatem Parco]

Tuning takes resources. You have to hire technicians to work your electronics, your mechanics, your armor...

If you think about it, it makes more sense to charge Cbills for respecs since it is mechanically resource intensive. The survival tree involved welding more armor on your mech. The sensor tree involves installing computers. Operations involved overhauling your chillers and heat transfer piping.

PGI is charging XP, the currency you can only spend on leveling Mechs. It works for me.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 23 May 2017 - 02:31 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Yes please!

Tinkering should be encouraged.

[Athom83]

Daecollo, on 23 May 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

Wait what?
What game does respec different? Name one.

World of Tanks. World of Warcraft. There are others but they aren't MMOs or RPGs.

Daecollo, on 23 May 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

Also, I didn't say they didn't. The cost just isn't so steep and dumb.

Lol, the cost isn't steep. I've even been respecing my mechs occasionally just to try something else. It isn't that bad. It seems bad as you aren't getting SP back to get different nodes for free. However, not only is the node reactivation cost marginal when you actually respec responsibly, but if you take the time to learn the mech you really shouldn't need to respec that much at all.

Daecollo, on 23 May 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

So the user is supposed to predict the future and be a mind reader? I didn't know! I guess I will bring my money elsewhere! Since its the 'users' fault he didn't know the future!

No, its the users fault for;
1) Not reading the patch notes that explained everything to him.
2) Ignoring the warning on the button that says "respec".
3) Hitting save after they removed all of their nodes, even after the popup window asks for confirmation.
4) Failing to understand what he actually did.

[Athom83]

Gimpy117, on 23 May 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

from a gameplay perspective if they truly did the skill tree for mech versitility reasons then it should always be free to respec the mech.

To fit lore and balance gameplay, I may be fine with them removing the costs for Omnimechs. As Park put it, refitting a mech takes resources that would logically incur costs. A Omnimech is designed to be modular and modifiable, so there would be little to no cost.

And I'm saying that even though I don't own an Omnimech. From what I hear they are lagging behind somewhat (except for Timber Wolf, Night Gyr, Hellbringer, Sotrmcrow, and Nova).

[Nightmare1]

Daecollo, on 23 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

Since it does not give you a proper warning...Too many people are getting screwed because there is no proper warning to respec+saving. I myself have just stopped buying things. I have a completely worthless mech now because the game did not explain what would happen after you respec'd.

Dude, it was plastered all over the patch notes and the previous PTS's. Did you not do any homework before you jumped in feet first?

[RaidSoft]

Nightmare1, on 23 May 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

Dude, it was plastered all over the patch notes and the previous PTS's. Did you not do any homework before you jumped in feet first?

Do you really think "Should have read the patch notes!" is any kind of good reason? What about a new player that joins later on, should they read through every patch note made to know how everything work or is it more reasonable that the game UI conveys the information you're expecting in a good way?

Now.. It makes sense that re-tuning a mech would have some kind of resource cost, but at the same time so would changing ANY configuration of it so by that notion it could cost something every time you change just an armor point, swap out some equipment or anything like that... But they don't do that because it's not a good experience for the player.

If it's free to swap out equipment and engines or change armor values after you own the gear, why is the skill tree treated differently? Both play an equal role in altering your mech to make it do what you want it to do. I would argue that stuff like double heatsinks and endo-steel etc. also suffers from this... There's no consistency in the system and the fact that changing it cost something promotes people to look up the optimal way to do it then follow that blindly instead of trying to experiment and figure it out them self.

In the end this doesn't really affect veterans much as they probably grind so much xp and c-bills that they don't notice it but for a new player trying to learn the game it can slow down their progression a lot as they get to grips with the game. Either that or they just look up the most popular meta mech and call it a day....

Edited by RaidSoft, 23 May 2017 - 03:25 PM.

[sycocys]

If you mech needed the skills to be not worthless, I'm not sure I'd worry about the respec cost for it and pick a different mech or rebuild it before you look at the node tree again.

[Nightmare1]

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

Do you really think "Should have read the patch notes!" is any kind of good reason?

Yes, actually. It's the responsible thing to do. Anytime any of my game has a big update, I always read the patch notes before I jump in and start mucking about.

It's just common sense.

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

What about a new player that joins later on, should they read through every patch note made to know how everything work or is it more reasonable that the game UI conveys the information you're expecting in a good way?

New Players read the guides or learn the hard way, just like in any other game. The New Player forum is full of helping hands.

Frankly, the UI is pretty self-explanatory. The Skill Trees and layout are clunky, but the tool tips are actually quite good and it's fairly intuitive once you actually start using it.

On top of that, I can't think of a single F2P game that offers a free re-skill. Nearly all of them that I have played required RL currency, while a select few, such as MWO, allow you to do it for free with grinding.

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

Now.. It makes sense that re-tuning a mech would have some kind of resource cost, but at the same time so would changing ANY configuration of it so by that notion it could cost something every time you change just an armor point, swap out some equipment or anything like that... But they don't do that because it's not a good experience for the player.

If it's free to swap out equipment and engines or change armor values after you own the gear, why is the skill tree treated differently? Both play an equal role in altering your mech to make it do what you want it to do. I would argue that stuff like double heatsinks and endo-steel etc. also suffers from this... There's no consistency in the system and the fact that changing it cost money promotes people to look up the optimal way to do it then follow that blindly instead of trying to experiment and figure it out them self.

Again, it's common sense that skills require resources to re-spec. Every game I have ever played requires you to spend resources to re-spec your character, machine, animal, etc, while re-equipping is typically free. That's normal and not unexpected. It is more abnormal to assume that you can muck about in the skill tree however you want without having to pay any resources whatsoever.

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

In the end this doesn't really affect veterans much as they probably grind so much xp and c-bills that they don't notice it but for a new player trying to learn the game it can slow down their progression a lot as they get to grips with the game. Either that or they just look up the most popular meta mech and call it a day....

It won't slow new players down much, and the new tree already reduces the grind for them by a massive amount. Under the old skill tree, it would take a very long time for new players to master a Mech (days), but under the new one, it takes mere hours.

Here, I already did a write-up explaining the differences in terms of economics:

https://mwomercs.com...s-a-comparison/

As for metamechs, I've never used the site. I'm too individualistic to conform to the cookie cutter.

Edited by Nightmare1, 23 May 2017 - 03:41 PM.

[RaidSoft]

I can't recall there actually being any warning that you are losing your points when you remove them and apply it, sure it asks for a confirmation if you want to save the settings but that doesn't really say that they are going to vanish. Having one line saying something about that in the confirmation window isn't too much to ask is it? Or do you just want people to have to learn it the hard way when it can very easily be prevented?

Good point about other games that use a f2p model generally not offering free respecs, though they tend to have WAY less variety than MWO when it comes to how many things affect your vehicle/character or whatever. They also tend to use bloody awful systems that came out of korea originally, world of tanks is a great example of a good game that is gutted by it's progression and business model. There's a reason I don't play those games after all...

In the end my point is that the system encourages you to get one build and not change it and the best way to do that is to look up a guide. I just know that when I lost the points because there was no warning I lost all urge to play the game, I have not logged in since and I was looking forward to this patch but since I can't really experiment without grinding even more now it drains my motivation to play.

Yes if you compare it to the old system a lot of things are much nicer like not having to buy modules or not having to get 3 mechs to master one, the major difference with the old system was there was no upkeep (or choice really, you just got all the nodes as soon as you got the xp for it, modules was the only real choice and that was a one-time purchase) then you're going from a no thinking no upkeep system to a 250+ node tree with 91 max choices that just adds SO much more to think about that you can't really compare them in any meaningful way.

Now with the new tree if you want to change a mechs equipment it's going to be likely you want to change the skill tree as well to suit the new equipment, that was NOT the case before at all since you just eventually got everything regardless.

Edited by RaidSoft, 23 May 2017 - 04:11 PM.

[Athom83]

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

I can't recall there actually being any warning that you are losing your points when you remove them and apply it, sure it asks for a confirmation if you want to save the settings but that doesn't really say that they are going to vanish. Having one line saying something about that in the confirmation window isn't too much to ask is it? Or do you just want people to have to learn it the hard way when it can very easily be prevented?

You don't lose them. They are deactivated. There is a reactivation cost of 400 XP for previously bought nodes that were deactivated.

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

In the end my point is that the system encourages you to get one build and not change it and the best way to do that is to look up a guide. I just know that when I lost the points because there was no warning I lost all urge to play the game, I have not logged in since and I was looking forward to this patch but since I can't really experiment without grinding even more now it drains my motivation to play.

Most of the points are general skills that benefit most of the mechs. The rest can usually be figured out by playing the mech and seeing where it needs work.

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

Yes if you compare it to the old system a lot of things are much nicer like not having to buy modules or not having to get 3 mechs to master one, the major difference with the old system was there was no upkeep (or choice really, you just got all the nodes as soon as you got the xp for it, modules was the only real choice and that was a one-time purchase) then you're going from a no thinking no upkeep system to a 250+ node tree with 91 max choices that just adds SO much more to think about that you can't really compare them in any meaningful way.

You can get all 250 nodes for every mech if you want. There's is nothing stopping you from getting more nodes. You just can only have 91 active at any one time. There is just a cost of some XP to reactivate nodes you've disabled to fit another node.

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

Now with the new tree if you want to change a mechs equipment it's going to be likely you want to change the skill tree as well to suit the new equipment, that was NOT the case before at all since you just eventually got everything regardless.

Most builds you'd change around on the mech are either 1) going to benefit from the same nodes or 2) is such a drastic change it would be just as easy to start with a new mech.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Prosperity Park, on 23 May 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

Tuning takes resources. You have to hire technicians to work your electronics, your mechanics, your armor...

If you think about it, it makes more sense to charge Cbills for respecs since it is mechanically resource intensive. The survival tree involved welding more armor on your mech. The sensor tree involves installing computers. Operations involved overhauling your chillers and heat transfer piping.

PGI is charging XP, the currency you can only spend on leveling Mechs. It works for me.

Sorry I had to break this to you but MWO isn't a RPG and doesn't follow lore. I mean if we want to go down that road, lets make it so every time you want to change up the build on your IS mech, you have to send it away for a Month to the factory and wait for it to be modified. Also modifying an IS mech, any IS mech, especially something like changing out the structure is very resource intensive. Why something like going from Standard to Endo would likely cost 5x the original cost of the mech just because it would be a custom, on off modification. Sure lets charge 30 million C-billls for that modification and maybe 5-10 million more for the weapons swap.

Seriously, don't try to use reality or lore to justify the unreasonable respec cost of the skill tree. All the respec cost does it make the game less fun. I mean you just have to read about all these people agonizing over having to skill out their mechs. They are agonizing at least partially because they only have 91 points to spend, they have no way to test out the build they settled on before making it permanent and they are going to have to invest tons of time grinding XP and/or C-bills if they screw up their build. Free respecs go a LONG way toward relaxing the stress involved with choosing your skill build because if you screw it up or want to experiment that is fine, you just pick up a few new nodes, buy them, then min/max to your hearts content without having to worry about having enough XP.

Sorry the respec cost is just silly.

[Nightmare1]

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

I can't recall there actually being any warning that you are losing your points when you remove them and apply it, sure it asks for a confirmation if you want to save the settings but that doesn't really say that they are going to vanish. Having one line saying something about that in the confirmation window isn't too much to ask is it? Or do you just want people to have to learn it the hard way when it can very easily be prevented?

The warning was explained in the patch notes.

That being said, it's pretty easy to add a line into the game. My argument is not that we shouldn't have the warning, just that the information was out there, easily accessible, and that accidentally spending resources that you didn't need to spend because you didn't read the patch notes was not enough of a reason to condemn the entire skill tree update. It's self-inflicted.

That being said, adding a warning in-game certainly wouldn't hurt. It would help idiot-proof things too.

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

Good point about other games that use a f2p model generally not offering free respecs, though they tend to have WAY less variety than MWO when it comes to how many things affect your vehicle/character or whatever. They also tend to use bloody awful systems that came out of korea originally, world of tanks is a great example of a good game that is gutted by it's progression and business model. There's a reason I don't play those games after all...

Thanks.

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

In the end my point is that the system encourages you to get one build and not change it and the best way to do that is to look up a guide. I just know that when I lost the points because there was no warning I lost all urge to play the game, I have not logged in since and I was looking forward to this patch but since I can't really experiment without grinding even more now it drains my motivation to play.

Yeah, but that rigidity is found in most games these days. Even Star Trek Online, which offers the same level of construction and design depth for your ships, pushes people towards certain loadouts and skills. I felt that Vindictus did the same.

Do you have a good handle on how to convert your historic resources? The ones that PGI refunded to you? You really shouldn't have to grind much at all.

Here, this may help:




I have other tutorials as well if you think they could be of assistance. That one is just about converting your old resources into the new system.

RaidSoft, on 23 May 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

Yes if you compare it to the old system a lot of things are much nicer like not having to buy modules or not having to get 3 mechs to master one, the major difference with the old system was there was no upkeep (or choice really, you just got all the nodes as soon as you got the xp for it, modules was the only real choice and that was a one-time purchase) then you're going from a no thinking no upkeep system to a 250+ node tree with 91 max choices that just adds SO much more to think about that you can't really compare them in any meaningful way.

Now with the new tree if you want to change a mechs equipment it's going to be likely you want to change the skill tree as well to suit the new equipment, that was NOT the case before at all since you just eventually got everything regardless.

Yeah, you may find yourself needing to do that. I did an economic comparison though, and found that, even if you purchased all 237 nodes for three Mechs (substantially more than just re-activating nodes on occasion), it was still a shorter grind time than mastering three Mechs under the old system.

Viktor Drake, on 23 May 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

Sorry the respec cost is just silly.

Not really. It's pretty much standard in the industry. PGI is just nice enough to make it an easy and free grind. Most F2P games make you pay real $$$ to respec.

It's just silly to you because you haven't had to do it yet in MWO. It's an annoyance, but it's actually better for you than the old skill tree.