71 replies to this topic

[HGAK47]

I know very little, in fact almost nothing of lore. However if the lore build of the Yen lo keeps the AC/20 - do I get a double C-bill bonus?

[Summon3r]

cazidin, on 22 May 2017 - 06:41 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple idea. What if sticking to the stock/lore loadout (or within a predefined stock+ loadout) granted a C-bill bonus similar to Hero Mechs? Would that make these builds more appealing or at least, compensate for the amount you would've otherwise gained from a meta build?

how about just give us a pub que stock mode for once and for all!

ill keep up my weekly request to Russ for it regardless

[SuperFunkTron]

Metus regem, on 24 May 2017 - 06:36 AM, said:

I'd take it one step further by adjusting rewards to more closely match faction lore, for example:

Clans:
Higher Solo kill reward
Ignore Friendly Fire penalties
Punish KMDD
Punish high damage numbers
Punish focused fire


IS:
Higher KMDD rewards
Reward team play
Punish lone wolf style play.
Spotters gain match score equil to 40% of LRM damage dealt to locked target.

This would've been great if if they kept clan mechs closer to their initial values. Too much tweaking and balancing has happened to make that a reasonable way to incentivize any more unfortunately.

[Novakaine]

I would love to have a lore mode with lore loadouts and unit composition.

[Metus regem]

SuperFunkTron, on 24 May 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

This would've been great if if they kept clan mechs closer to their initial values. Too much tweaking and balancing has happened to make that a reasonable way to incentivize any more unfortunately.

Very true, it's just another area that in my opinion PGI dropped the ball.

Just like how the could reward mechs differently based on weight class and role... I mean really expecting a scout mech like a Locust 1V to have to be a direct mech to mech combat unit like an Arctic Cheetah is a bit silly, as it makes the Locust pilot work 2-3 times harder to get a lower match score than said Arctic Cheetah... That Locust should be able to be rewarded for spotting (better than they are), given non direct combat tasks (and no stand in the stupid box is not one of them) to help achieve victory or better yet have a non direct combat victory condition that could be achieved by fast light mechs.

[cazidin]

Vellron2005, on 24 May 2017 - 12:40 AM, said:

OK, I'm a lore buff.. I'll bite..

But already I can see a flaw in this line of reasoning.. What would be the LORE explanation for taking certain, usually non-optimal builds into combat, and getting paid extra for this?

I see no explanation for this.. nor honor, nor tactical advantage, nor any other reason I can think off.. No great house would pay extra for sub-par performance.. No Clan would encourage being less than the best you can be..

So your argument is not very LORE..

It's an incentive for players and doesn't need to strictly adhere to lore, but, if I must, perhaps you're getting paid extra for staying stock and representing X manufacturer? Plus, you probably void the warranty of your Warhammer by moving the PPCs to the torsi!

[Mechwarrior1441491]

I always thought that each faction should have lore builds that grant bonuses in FW and even in Quickplay. Even faction specific variants would be fine, but I doubt PGI could balance things properly to stop people from saying one faction is obviously better than an another.

That could be expanded for FW. So, Season starts in 3025. Mechs that are available in that era bet a set of bonuses for rewards. Those outside the era don't. Time line moves along. Mechs become current.

I'm the kind of person that would want the players to have R&D points, utilizing rank, so that we can choose which mechs are introduced for bonuses.

WWiionline does it well where allies and axis research more advanced weapons and tanks. Taking out factories reduces research output. Those weapons aren't even in the game until they have gone through a research cycle.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 24 May 2017 - 08:28 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Metus regem, on 24 May 2017 - 04:26 AM, said:

I suggested a while back, that rather than offer a game effecting reward, offer a cosmetic one. As in if you run stock / super stock considering the era of gameplay, you could be rewarded with a faction skin for free so long as that mech stays stock / super stock.

This would just single someone with a lore build out as being a liability to the rest of the team and a target of abuse and even TKing from the more jerk-like players.

[ScrapIron Prime]

QuantumButler, on 24 May 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

This would just single someone with a lore build out as being a liability to the rest of the team and a target of abuse and even TKing from the more jerk-like players.

Kind of like someone in an assault mech armed with LRMs...

[Disclaimer... I am saying we should not judge player on loadout. LRMs rock.]

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 24 May 2017 - 08:37 AM.

[QuantumButler]

ScrapIron Prime, on 24 May 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Kind of like someone in an assault mech armed with LRMs...

Have you seen how much abuse they (rightly) get in game?

Lore builds would be several times worse because you're probably stuck with stupid single heatsinks and dumb armor allocation too.

[ScrapIron Prime]

QuantumButler, on 24 May 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

Lore builds would be several times worse because you're probably stuck with stupid single heatsinks and dumb armor allocation too.

Or a main weapon system with 1 ton of Ammo. That was fine for Tabletop, not so good for first person shooter.

[Metus regem]

QuantumButler, on 24 May 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

This would just single someone with a lore build out as being a liability to the rest of the team and a target of abuse and even TKing from the more jerk-like players.

/shrug

I run super stock load outs and I hold my own. I don't do as well as I could if I ran meta builds, but I do alright when I play...

QuantumButler, on 24 May 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

Have you seen how much abuse they (rightly) get in game?

Lore builds would be several times worse because you're probably stuck with stupid single heatsinks and dumb armor allocation too.

Hence why I said "Super Stock" as in, you take the SHS and make them DHS, you add Endo and FF as needed, you adjust armour values to be more MWO complaint, but you try to leave the weapons alone or at the very least leave them in the locations they should be.

[SmokedJag]

Metus regem, on 24 May 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

The counter point to that is more than a few clan Omni's are under armoured stock, some of them by a frightening amount... they also have a tendency to run very hot with stock weapons.

Some are, some aren't. There are distinct "better" Clan Omnis that were kept in check by Battle Value (BV) restrictions. A Warhawk is literally twice the BV of a Gargoyle because, well, the Warhawk is absolute murder with lore builds. The Warhawk Prime, C and presumably H are all valid MWO "meta" with the only change being stripping off surplus weapon systems.

There are others that were made to be great. And then there are others that were made to be cheap/balancing the good ones.

Edited by SmokedJag, 24 May 2017 - 08:47 AM.

[Metus regem]

SmokedJag, on 24 May 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

Some are, some aren't. There are distinct "better" Clan Omnis that were kept in check by Battle Value (BV) restrictions. A Warhawk is literally twice the BV of a Gargoyle because, well, the Warhawk is absolute murder with lore builds. The Warhawk Prime, C and presumably H are all valid MWO "meta" with the only change being stripping off surplus weapon systems.

There are others that were made to be great. And then there are others that were made to be cheap/balancing the good ones.

And some were force multiplers if one broke Zel... the Hellbringer prime is a great example of that, under armoured but ECM equipped.

[sycocys]

Metus regem, on 24 May 2017 - 06:36 AM, said:

I'd take it one step further by adjusting rewards to more closely match faction lore, for example:

Clans:
Higher Solo kill reward
Ignore Friendly Fire penalties
Punish KMDD
Punish high damage numbers
Punish focused fire


IS:
Higher KMDD rewards
Reward team play
Punish lone wolf style play.
Spotters gain match score equil to 40% of LRM damage dealt to locked target.

Exactly, its not hard to layer in a wide range of reward "terms" for your chosen faction. Mech selection, tech/weapon selections, drop orders, could even go as far as mission parameters to be met that could be more dynamic based on unit/player populations.

[DGTLDaemon]

Not a good idea IMO. We ran a stock mech tournament in my former unit a while ago, and it turned into "whoever picks a mech with the stock loadout most closely resembling the current meta - wins". You can be a lore fan all you want, but the truth of life is that most stock/lore loadouts are simply unsuitable for a 1st-person 3D mech simulator. Just leave them in the tabletop game where they belong.

[James The Fox Dixon]

DGTLDaemon, on 25 May 2017 - 02:42 AM, said:

Not a good idea IMO. We ran a stock mech tournament in my former unit a while ago, and it turned into "whoever picks a mech with the stock loadout most closely resembling the current meta - wins". You can be a lore fan all you want, but the truth of life is that most stock/lore loadouts are simply unsuitable for a 1st-person 3D mech simulator. Just leave them in the tabletop game where they belong.

I'd counter that if it you had done a tournament with role warfare then they would have performed just as well as the Mr. Solo Glory Hound meta.

[DGTLDaemon]

James The Fox Dixon, on 25 May 2017 - 02:50 AM, said:

I'd counter that if it you had done a tournament with role warfare then they would have performed just as well as the Mr. Solo Glory Hound meta.

Yeah, try doing "role warfare" in a mech that has a heat management of 0.81, for instance. Or in a mech that carries barely enough ammo to last a minute in battle. That was me fighting in a stock NVA-PRIME against a stock HBK-IIC, by the way. The spectating crowd was laughing their a$$ess off, trying to predict what was going to happen first - me overheating to death or the other guy running out of ammo And I'm talking about two builds that remotely resemble the meta. Some of the other stock builds are not even funny. Running stock mechs can be hilarious if you do it on your own time, but bringing this bullsh*t to the regular queue... No, thanks.

Edited by DGTLDaemon, 25 May 2017 - 03:00 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

DGTLDaemon, on 25 May 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

Yeah, try doing "role warfare" in a mech that has a heat management of 0.81, for instance. Or in a mech that carries barely enough ammo to last a minute in battle. That was me fighting in a stock NVA-PRIME against a stock HBK-IIC, by the way. The spectating crowd was laughing their a$$ess off, trying to predict what was going to happen first - me overheating to death or the other guy running out of ammo It can be hilarious, but bringing this bullsh*t to regular queue... No, thanks.

I didn't say it didn't have problems, but you have to say it's fun. I don't think very many players in MWO could handle a game like MPBT: EGA or its successors. All stock mechs with no customization. You see that's a test of true skill because you don't have the crutch of a customized mech to fall back on. Can you actually hit your target when you need to and make that shot count? Can you ride as close to shut down without actually shutting down? Heat and ammo management are skills just like aiming and hitting your target is. That's where the fun is at.

An anecdote from MPBT: Solaris. A Black Jack 1S could walk in reverse at the same speed an Atlas could walk forward. It was fun to get just within maximum range of the AC2s then slam the mech into reverse and core an Atlas. Poor Atlas pilots couldn't do anything about it either and boy there were whines about it from a very small minority.

[oldradagast]

True Lore builds rarely work. You end up with cruddy engine sizes, often horrible armor, etc.

I'd rather see every mech get some quirks that focuses on the mech's lore flavor. Awesome 8Q for example has PPC quirks, though it lost the really good velocity ones, I think, for some dumb reasons. Nobody is going to run an Awesome 8Q with standard heatsinks and a 240 engine - that's silly. But running it with DHS and a standard 300, but still using PPC's makes sense and is still in the theme of the lore.