24 replies to this topic

[Greyhart]

Obviously a number of posts on the up coming Laser changes.

I mention this in each of them but it of course gets lost in the detailed calculations on burn time and damage and heat.

So currently Pulse lasers are like lasers with shorter burn time and more heat. Not really any different in the scheme of things.

Instead they should act like machine guns of the laser world.

I.e. hold down the trigger for constant stream of damage and heat build up.

The damage could be delivered in packets or as a straight DoT.

This change would then allow for lasers to have the burn times adjusted because they are different to pulse lasers.

[James The Fox Dixon]

I think they are fine the way they are and this was discussed to death in CB. That was 5 years ago ya know?

[GotShotALot]

If you wanted to change the pulse mechanic they should more likely work the way Clan ACs do (fire a burst that divides damage into 4 pulses, each of which hits separately). Maybe they already work that way, but to me they basically look like a shorter duration laser which makes the wub sound. EG it's a continuous beam hit-scan weapon is how it looks to me, just shorter.

Overall though I think that would be 'change for the sake of change', since the end result would be very little different than what we have now.

Edited by GotShotALot, 25 May 2017 - 06:28 AM.

[kapusta11]

No.

[sycocys]

Can you imagine a 5 MPL, 1 LPL mech with everything else DSH + all the heat nodes + hold and focus dps until you hit 90% heat, then cool shot and hold to 90% lasers?

Say goodbye to any particular part of your mech they want to vaporize.

- Now I don't think the current system is particularly great, but hold for more dps would be way worse I think.

Edited by sycocys, 25 May 2017 - 06:44 AM.

[Mole]

I am withholding my answer until I know how micro lasers are going to work, as the micro laser may be intended to fulfill the "laser MG" role.

[DGTLDaemon]

Not going to work. The key mechanic that makes ballistic DPS weapons like AC2s viable is the cockpit shake. You may not be dealing a lot of damage per shot, but you annoy the hell out of your opponent and throw them off balance with that constant pounding. With the pulse laser mechanic that you're suggesting, you'll just have to stand out in the open and hold down that trigger forever, waiting to apply sufficient damage while your opponent has the time to torso twist and get into cover, and while his buddies can alpha-poke you to death from cover. It's gonna turn pulse lasers into useless crap, at least in higher tiers where people know better than to stand in one place and let you slowly roast them all day.

Edited by DGTLDaemon, 25 May 2017 - 07:06 AM.

[Greyhart]

sycocys, on 25 May 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

Can you imagine a 5 MPL, 1 LPL mech with everything else DSH + all the heat nodes + hold and focus dps until you hit 90% heat, then cool shot and hold to 90% lasers?

Say goodbye to any particular part of your mech they want to vaporize.

- Now I don't think the current system is particularly great, but hold for more dps would be way worse I think.

DGTLDaemon, on 25 May 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

Not going to work. The key mechanic that makes ballistic DPS weapons like AC2s viable is the cockpit shake. You may not be dealing a lot of damage per shot, but you annoy the hell out of your opponent and throw them off balance with that constant pounding. With the pulse laser mechanic that you're suggesting, you'll just have to stand out in the open and hold down that trigger forever, waiting to apply sufficient damage while your opponent has the time to torso twist and get into cover, and while his buddies can alpha-poke you to death from cover. It's gonna turn pulse lasers into useless crap, at least in higher tiers where people know better than to stand in one place and let you slowly roast them all day.

Well these are both logical and reasonable draw backs but then again they are at different ends of the spectrum.

Surely there should be a reasonable middle ground.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Yeah, I was originally for laser MGs, but this makes boating them problematic, since you'll be firing all of them at once, and likely incurring ghost heat, where with current pulse lasers you can chain-fire to overcome this. I'd rather have the IS pulse lasers have less burn time but more heat (just more heat for LPL).

[DGTLDaemon]

Greyhart, on 25 May 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

Surely there should be a reasonable middle ground.

There isn't. A DPS weapon without secondary effects like cockpit shake has no future in higher tiers. No one is going to let you stare at your opponent all day. That's not how the game is played. If you are a brawler, you fire, torso twist to spread damage, then rinse and repeat. If you are a poker, you get out of cover, fire, and get back into cover. Staring at someone for more than 2 seconds is usually a death sentence, unless you are a dakka Dire Wolf staring at a mech half your tonnage. And lasers are already easy enough to defend against by torso twisting and spreading damage. With a low-damage, continuous-fire laser you'll never be able to apply sufficient damage to a single component, unless your opponent is a complete idiot and just stands there doing nothing.

Imagine a simple scenario. Let's say we have two identical mechs - same chassis, same hardpoints, same engine, armor distribution etc. Mech A is using the proposed machine gun-like pulse lasers that apply damage continuously in small portions. Mech B is using a classic high-alpha laser vomit loadout. Let us assume, for the purposes of this simulation, that they're both caught out in the open with no cover, and that they start firing on each other simultaneously. Mech A has to stand still and keep its lasers on the opponent. Mech B fires once, then torso twists to spread damage while its lasers cool down, then turns and fires again - at the same component of Mech A, since the latter cannot effectively shield its damaged components. Who do you think is going to win this duel?

Edited by DGTLDaemon, 25 May 2017 - 07:36 AM.

[AnTi90d]

Mechwarrior 4's Pulse Lasers were basically laser machine guns.. low damage / fast recycle / DPS weapons.. and they saw little to no serious use because of that.

MW4 even had a Continuous Beam Laser. It was also terrible and no one used it for anything other than a joke build.

If you use short ranged / low recycle time weapons like MW4's Pulse Lasers or CBL, you have to stare at your opponent. If you stare at your opponent, you get CT cored or XL checked.

Changing MWO's Pulse Lasers into that would just relegate them to the junk pile, at best, and a newbie trap, at worst.

For the love of Mecha Jesus, stop changing things for no valid reason and stop fixing things that don't need to be fixed.

[cazidin]

They're PULSE LASERS not X-PULSE LASERS.

These are completely different weapons.

[Gentleman Reaper]

cazidin, on 25 May 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

They're PULSE LASERS not X-PULSE LASERS.

These are completely different weapons.

X-Pulse lasers are literally just extended range pulse lasers, there's no difference in their function, they're also supposed to be a burst of pulses.

[cazidin]

Gentleman Reaper, on 25 May 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

X-Pulse lasers are literally just extended range pulse lasers, there's no difference in their function, they're also supposed to be a burst of pulses.

While you may be technically correct, I recall X-pulse lasers are being describes as machine-gun like in their firing principles and behaving in a way suggested by the OP.

They're also mediocre™.

[El Bandito]

I liked the MW3 pulse lasers.

[Requiemking]

Hmm, MWLL had thier X-Pulse Lasers function as laser MGS, and to be honest, it wasn't so bad.

[GrimRiver]

Micro pulse lasers maybe.

But not for LPL, MPL and SPL, they already work as prefect as they can be.

[Mcgral18]

More diverse than presently? Sure

Constant? No


Half duration, half damage, 1/3 cooldown sort of thing
Higher DPS, solid application, but more FaceTime (nowhere near constant, aside from the Small class)


Clam pulses have the issue of presently acting like Heavy Lasers, only trading weight instead of Crits. Massively increased damage is the general cause

[sycocys]

DGTLDaemon, on 25 May 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

There isn't. A DPS weapon without secondary effects like cockpit shake has no future in higher tiers. No one is going to let you stare at your opponent all day. That's not how the game is played. If you are a brawler, you fire, torso twist to spread damage, then rinse and repeat. If you are a poker, you get out of cover, fire, and get back into cover. Staring at someone for more than 2 seconds is usually a death sentence, unless you are a dakka Dire Wolf staring at a mech half your tonnage. And lasers are already easy enough to defend against by torso twisting and spreading damage. With a low-damage, continuous-fire laser you'll never be able to apply sufficient damage to a single component, unless your opponent is a complete idiot and just stands there doing nothing.

Imagine a simple scenario. Let's say we have two identical mechs - same chassis, same hardpoints, same engine, armor distribution etc. Mech A is using the proposed machine gun-like pulse lasers that apply damage continuously in small portions. Mech B is using a classic high-alpha laser vomit loadout. Let us assume, for the purposes of this simulation, that they're both caught out in the open with no cover, and that they start firing on each other simultaneously. Mech A has to stand still and keep its lasers on the opponent. Mech B fires once, then torso twists to spread damage while its lasers cool down, then turns and fires again - at the same component of Mech A, since the latter cannot effectively shield its damaged components. Who do you think is going to win this duel?

If mech A is smart those legs would be gone pretty quickly since you can't twist those away.

[Skanderborg]

I think it would be cool if the microlasers acted like machine guns , maybe people would actually use them.