52 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

James The Fox Dixon, on 28 May 2017 - 05:38 AM, said:

The Atlas D-DC is not a double cockpit design. It's a command variant of the Davion model that was used by the Draconis Combine. The only Star League mech, from TRO 3025 that had a dual cockpit was the Battlemaster 1G and 3M variant. The Lyran Commonwealth used AS7-D's with a dual cockpit design and it didn't have a command console.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dual_Cockpit

Ehm no the DC is a Command Console and there are a Battlemaster and Cyclops variant with those (some others too can't remember)

[James The Fox Dixon]

Karl Streiger, on 28 May 2017 - 05:51 AM, said:

Ehm no the DC is a Command Console and there are a Battlemaster and Cyclops variant with those (some others too can't remember)

No, that's not what Sarna or the TROs say. I linked directly to the list of dual cockpit mechs and the D-DC is not a dual cockpit mech. It's a mech with a command console yes, but it's not a dual cockpit design. The Draconis Combine refitted the Atlas 7-D's they got from the Third Succession war to add the command console, but it doesn't add a second cockpit.

[SuperFunkTron]

So to simplify it here, a Dual Cockpit mech requires two pilots to operate as they share the piloting and gunning controls and is also smaller than a mech with a command console.

Command Console essentially is a non critical extra seat in the mech (only heavy or assault due to size constraints) and handles non piloting/gunning functions, thus making it non critical. However, the 2nd pilot is responsible for command and coordination style functions (non critical) to improve the battlefield performance of the group.

I hope I interpreted that correctly based on the Sarna info.

[James The Fox Dixon]

SuperFunkTron, on 28 May 2017 - 06:06 AM, said:

So to simplify it here, a Dual Cockpit mech requires two pilots to operate as they share the piloting and gunning controls and is also smaller than a mech with a command console.

Command Console essentially is a non critical extra seat in the mech (only heavy or assault due to size constraints) and handles non piloting/gunning functions, thus making it non critical. However, the 2nd pilot is responsible for command and coordination style functions (non critical) to improve the battlefield performance of the group.

I hope I interpreted that correctly based on the Sarna info.

That's pretty accurate as the dual cockpits could be on smaller mechs like mediums and lights. The command console is heavy and assault mech only.

[Koniving]

MustrumRidcully, on 26 May 2017 - 01:00 AM, said:

So here's a question for the Battle Tech Lore experts.
I like the variant names of mechs like HKB-4G, HBK-4P or CAT-K2 or AS7-D-DC. But what do they mean? Is there a system to them, or was it just made-up to have some "technical looking" meaning. (Kinda like how in the real world, weapons have names like M16 vs M14, G36 bvs G36K).

Do the numbers imply something like HBK-4G means 4th generation HBK design, G stands for a certain weapon loadout? (The AWS-9Q is basically the 8Q with more advanced technology, for example) Or is it all just crazy made up number and letters?

The short answer is yes.

There's a number of name conventions that are followed.
Star League specific mechs follow a convention in which P represents an energy-focused variant, J usually meant LRMs, S meant SRMs. (Thus HBK-4SP meant Hunchback, 4th generation, SRMs and Energy).

HBKs are a special case, every 4th generation BESIDES the 4G is actually a refit kit made munch later. Late in their lifespan just before the 5th gens, they were finally being produced 'for real' by a new company. Another important thing to note is that occasionally there are drastic physical differences between generations. For example, the 4th Gen Hunchbacks are really short for medium mechs. In fact the entire reason they carry a Drum of ammunition (CT for 4SP, LT for all others) is because they are too small to carry the ammo inside them properly. This is also why they are "Hunched." So short, squat, heavily armored for their size and even for their weight (it is equal to that of a Catapult C1), and also the original 4G possesses one of the largest AC/20 calibers in the Inner Sphere (as far as 3065, beyond that don't know). Those made later dropped the Tomodzuru in favor of a smaller caliber AC/20 with much less per-bullet-punch, making them less of an ambush and blast and more of a persistent DPS-style pest. Good news is that ammo is easier to come by; one of the main reasons that most 4Gs were converted into other refit designs, the difficulty of coming by ammo of that caliber.
Meanwhile the 5th Generation Hunchbacks are identical in specs beyond equipping DHS; so why is that worthy of a new generation? Simple. They increased in physical size, too. Same weight, just a bit taller, a bit more spacious on the inside to accommodate the new engine's new cooling system.

Shadow Hawks show an interesting case as well. The SHK-2nd generation are really small and poorly armored, you may notice their armor is about equal to 20 to 30 ton mechs.
Is it any wonder?
Scale of a SHK 2nd gen.

(As illustrated by first BT novelist, William H. Keith Jr.)
Scale compared to MWO's original Shadowhawk.

For comparison the current size of MWO's Urbanmech.


Anyway, after the 2nd gen Shadowhawks came the third gen, which were a bit bigger, the 4th gen don't appear to have any official versions (BT leaves gaps on purpose for you to create your own mechs), but then came the 5th gen. The 5th gen sport XL engines, DHS, etc., and are said to be somewhat over 2 meters larger than their 2nd gen. Now if you go on the SHK page, notice that in the 3070s+, a new "3rd" generation appears despite all the 5th generations? This means that a third generation model was used, with its different size and attributes.

You may also notice that King Crabs are described as looking mostly the same all the way until 3100s, with the exception of a Comstar version in the 3080s which was made "Sleeker." As such you often couldn't tell which was which until they fired, further complexing the Hangar Queen's Gambit (Hangar Queen's Bluff depending on the version you find), a short story about whether you'd take the shot when the King Crab shuts its claws, proposing the question of whether it's reloading or fooling you. The answer is you're screwed either way, because it's a KGC-0000 and not a KGC-000, and thus it never has to reload its ACs, they are belt fed and fully automatic.

Jumping back a moment... while I'm not sure how the naming convention for the Centurion worked, here's a few that I can explain.

The Highlander follows Star League. So far as I can tell, so does the HBK despite the fact that they are all refits. The Atlas and soo, sooo many of the mechs of general access will follow the naming convention of Name-Gen-Letter pertaining to faction.

For instance: Atlas has a few numbers. AS7 is 7th gen... Actually it is 7th iteration, there were 6 mech designs made for Kerensky that failed before the final AS7 made the cut. AS8 is 8th gen. Then you have the letters. D is Davion. D-DC is Davion Dual Cockpit. (Note the Atlas is actually piloted from the nose; EXCEPT the D-DC which is piloted from the right eye and the commander sits in the left; though this varies between books). Atlas S and S-2 are both Steiner. K is commissioned by Kurita. C I used to think is Comstar but in fact it stands for Combine, and is actually just the 'finished' version of the K that was so rushed to production. The RS is Rassalhague as far as I know. Every Atlas is visually distinct between variants. The K and C are the only Atlases to carry 20 tubes for its LRM-20. Every other Atlas has a 5 tube rapid-reload hip launcher that fires 20 missiles per 10 seconds. The Atlas K is once described as having large lasers nearly 4 times as powerful as an Atlas D's medium lasers (since MLs do 5 damage and ER LL does 8 damage, this could only mean that the D's ML actually do something close to 1 damage, like 1.25 per shot and the K's ER LL does 4 damage per shot; meaning the D must have 4 shot / 10 second ML while the K has 2 shot / 10 second ER LL; weapon variants at work!)

Ravens and Cataphracts are an interesting case. They are Liao in nature but constantly captured and tinkered with by the Davions. Ravens with the designation X vary a bit. The 2X is Liao but the 4X is Davion. It is unknown whether the number is actually generational. It is generally assumed to be as the 4L is so much better than the 3L.
The Cataphract is much the same, the 4X is again Davion. Not sure on the 2X. The 1X is Liao. The 3D is definitely Davion and the 3L is definitely Liao.

You're welcome to bring up examples and I do my best.

Clan Omnimech names are simple.
Name - Config.
Written as: Prime, A, B, C, D, etc.
These are properly stated as: Prime, Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, etc using the greek alphabet.
It is incorrect to call any Omnimech configuration a variant.

Edited by Koniving, 28 May 2017 - 07:16 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

James The Fox Dixon, on 28 May 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

No, that's not what Sarna or the TROs say. I linked directly to the list of dual cockpit mechs and the D-DC is not a dual cockpit mech. It's a mech with a command console yes, but it's not a dual cockpit design. The Draconis Combine refitted the Atlas 7-D's they got from the Third Succession war to add the command console, but it doesn't add a second cockpit.

The Double Cockpit allowed a pilot and a gunner a cheap (1t) way to increase pilot roll and to hit roll. This was City Tech (for me German Edition)
With BV this would have been incredible expensive.
So the double cockipt was removed / replaced with command console. Or at least what i can remember - so you will not find any double cockpit in the current rules.

[Koniving]

d

James The Fox Dixon, on 28 May 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

That's pretty accurate as the dual cockpits could be on smaller mechs like mediums and lights. The command console is heavy and assault mech only.

It is correct. I should note the "DC" simply means Dual Cockpit, regardless of whether it has a second seat (such as a rumble seat) or a complete secondary cockpit (as the actual Double Cockpit ruleset or the Command Console). This (sometimes) includes Rumble Seat designs, as such the CTF-0X is supposed to have the DC designation.

The Command Console for the Atlas, is a fully functional secondary cockpit and command center. The bonus to command properties is lost if the pilot or the commander is knocked unconscious, but regardless of who is still conscious so long as one pilot is conscious, the mech is as fully functional as damage would allow. The Commander dies instantly if the Command Console is crit. The pilot dies instantly if the primary cockpit is hit. Again if one is still alive, the mech is fully functional.

Dual Cockpit is a legacy rule as Karl pointed out. I personally use this rule on the "old" versions of the Scorpion as the original art depicts two cockpits.

Although the three are very different, the designation itself simply means (for lack of better words) "2 seater cockpit." Often simply stated as "Dual/Double Cockpit" as applicable. As such the designation is used on any 2 seater mech. (That and the list of mechs on that sarna entry is incomplete; also note that they are stated to be merged with Command Console; this is of course ambiguous, however it is true that every DC entry has at least one of the following: Rumble seat quirk, Dual Cockpit, or Command Console.) So the designation is accurate regardless, despite of the distinct differences.

Last edit:
A rumble seat is simply an extra seat. Typically it is used by an instructor and includes an emergency shutdown / emergency stop command that will take control away from the pilot. This is used mostly in training mechs.

Edited by Koniving, 28 May 2017 - 08:15 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Koniving, on 28 May 2017 - 07:22 AM, said:

d

It is correct. I should note the "DC" simply means Dual Cockpit, regardless of whether it has a second seat (such as a rumble seat) or a complete secondary cockpit (as the actual Double Cockpit ruleset or the Command Console). This (sometimes) includes Rumble Seat designs, as such the CTF-0X is supposed to have the DC designation.

The Command Console for the Atlas, is a fully functional secondary cockpit and command center. The bonus to command properties is lost if the pilot or the commander is knocked unconscious, but regardless of who is still conscious so long as one pilot is conscious, the mech is as fully functional as damage would allow. The Commander dies instantly if the Command Console is crit. The pilot dies instantly if the primary cockpit is hit. Again if one is still alive, the mech is fully functional.

Dual Cockpit is a legacy rule as Karl pointed out. I personally use this rule on the "old" versions of the Scorpion as the original art depicts two cockpits.

Although the three are very different, the designation itself simply means (for lack of better words) "2 seater cockpit." Often simply stated as "Dual/Double Cockpit" as applicable. As such the designation is used on any 2 seater mech. (That and the list of mechs on that sarna entry is incomplete; also note that they are stated to be merged with Command Console; this is of course ambiguous, however it is true that every DC entry has at least one of the following: Rumble seat quirk, Dual Cockpit, or Command Console.) So the designation is accurate regardless, despite of the distinct differences.

Last edit:
A rumble seat is simply an extra seat. Typically it is used by an instructor and includes an emergency shutdown / emergency stop command that will take control away from the pilot. This is used mostly in training mechs.

They must have changed the fluff on it then. In the original 3025 TRO it stated that the DC model was the Draconis Combine version of the 7-D's that Kurita captured as salvage or from warehouses that held them.

[MustrumRidcully]

Very interesting so far. Thanks everyone!

I am casually working on a bit of a Battletech campaign idea, and thinking about setting it some time after whatever is currently going (Dark Age?) on with new mech models. Not sure if that will really amount to anything, since I also have a Star Wars RPG going for which I still have to make space combat rules, but playing MW:O again just put me in the mood.

[Koniving]

James The Fox Dixon, on 28 May 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

They must have changed the fluff on it then. In the original 3025 TRO it stated that the DC model was the Draconis Combine version of the 7-D's that Kurita captured as salvage or from warehouses that held them.

Well, without looking this is like saying there are dinosaurs in Battletech.

Edit: Forgot the dinosaurs!

Which is entirely true, but without proof no one would believe me.
So lets take a peek.

*Pulls out the original 3025 TRO first...*
I did learn some new stuff, for example the Atlas D's AC/20 lacks a cooling jacket, so instead of the stock 7 heat for an AC/20, it would be generating 9 heat (+1 for poor jacket, +2 for no jacket). The 5 tube feed system for the LRM-20 is definitely mentioned here. Each tube has its own ammunition 'clip'. Entertaining thought, so Karl Strieger's concept design isn't that far fetched even if he did modify the amount of missiles being used and made them stronger...

The Omnicoupling is mentioned, which it uses to hook up to coolant trucks during extended battles and defensive roles.

There is absolutely no mention of specific variants. It does have the caveat under 'Variants" that parts are difficult to come by, it can use other weapons, but they "invariably decrease the size of its interior", in other words this mech where the lore stats that it is as packed as it can possibly be for its size (remember that Atlases are in fact between 13 and 14 meters, NOT the 17.6 meters of MWO) and that the tallest mech up until 3065 is 14.4 meters tall (Clan Omnimech: Executioner)... The statement is a side jab saying "You change these weapons, you make it difficult to repair."


Strangely, it stats that the Atlas D has 3 medium lasers, not 4....
Despite how the actual sheet following it states 4 medium lasers.

I've uploaded the images for you.

Migrating to 3025 Revised... Sadly it's identical beyond a layout change.


The second image is completely identical, so I took a moment to map out the weapons, points of interest and the two most commonly depicted cockpit locations on the Atlas.

Edited by Koniving, 28 May 2017 - 11:37 AM.

[Koniving]

I have to add that some "biased" fictional narrators (aka characters describing the stories within the Bt universe) are known to exaggerate things, including the height of the Atlas. This technically means that narrators can be 'unreliable'.

"An unreliable narrator is a narrator, whether in literature, film, or theatre, whose credibility has been seriously compromised. The term was coined in 1961 by Wayne C. Booth in The Rhetoric of Fiction."

Note: Due to fear, anyone face to face against an Atlas without a cool head is automatically an unreliable narrator. He's scared shitless, like he's gonna get his story straight.

The out of character "from the developers" in the 1st Sommerset Strikers compendium admits that many of their novels are told through the perspectives of fictional narrators who are biased toward one faction or the other, whom depict an opposing faction as evil when every faction is really a morally grey area with good and bad people in each. The term "unreliable" is specifically used to describe "some of these narrators." So at times, exaggeration is to be expected.

Edited by Koniving, 28 May 2017 - 11:44 AM.

[Koniving]

MustrumRidcully, on 28 May 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

Very interesting so far. Thanks everyone!

I am casually working on a bit of a Battletech campaign idea, and thinking about setting it some time after whatever is currently going (Dark Age?) on with new mech models. Not sure if that will really amount to anything, since I also have a Star Wars RPG going for which I still have to make space combat rules, but playing MW:O again just put me in the mood.

I think the current timeline is 3145, which is long after the dark ages. There are definitely a lot new mech models already existing. If you have a Smart phone with an Android OS or a Windows OS, there is an App called Mech Factory, run by Battletech.RPG.HU and it has an impressive resource. Its mech and vehicle listings can be sorted by faction and TRO (year) too.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 28 May 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

Well, without looking this is like saying there are dinosaurs in Battletech.

Edit: Forgot the dinosaurs!

I sure hope that Megasaur bought that Bushwhacker dinner first.... Or at the very least it needs a censored tag across it....

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 28 May 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

You place the LRMs on the hip? Have you some references for it - or only the "artwork"
because in the text the "shielding" is mentioned. I would place the reactor more in the center "lung "area"

Edited by Karl Streiger, 29 May 2017 - 12:03 AM.

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 28 May 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

You place the LRMs on the hip? Have you some references for it - or only the "artwork"
because in the text the "shielding" is mentioned. I would place the reactor more in the center "lung "area"

Read it.

From Overview, count 5 paragraphs in.
The Atlas's Long Range Missile.... Five tube system.
Where are five tubes on the body?
It also immediately describes the giant hole next to the 5 tube LRM hip launcher and says it is NOT a weapon.

Then, Atlas K describes that the old housing for the 5 tube hip-mounted system of older Atlas models' LRM system is STILL on the body, left over as dead weight.
Specifically, first paragraph: "however, the housing for the original
compact LRM 20 launcher on the left hip is still present."


I also just learned, evidently Atlases with hip launchers sometimes suffered jamming issues (which is curious, each of the 5 tubes on the hip launcher has its own ammo feed... but feeding from 'magazines' of missiles does sound like it might have an issue, especially considering they reload and fire every 2.5 seconds.)

I mean, you didn't honestly think the same thing PGI did, that a 5 tube SRM-6 launcher sat on the hip and a 6-tube LRM-20 launcher sat on the shoulder, did you? I mean even Sarna points it out, LRM on the hip, SRM on the shoulder.

Atlas K had to drop the SRM-6 in order to move the LRM-20 from the hip to the chest. (Also very explicitly stated in Sarna, too).

The only Atlases in the AS7 line to have LRMs in the chest/shoulder area are: Atlas K, Atlas C, Atlas K-2. These are also the only ones to have 20 tube LRM-20s. All other AS7s have 5 tube LRM-20s mounted on the hip.

Edited by Koniving, 29 May 2017 - 04:49 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 29 May 2017 - 04:40 AM, said:

The only Atlases in the AS7 line to have LRMs in the chest/shoulder area are: Atlas K, Atlas C, Atlas K-2. These are also the only ones to have 20 tube LRM-20s. All other AS7s have 5 tube LRM-20s mounted on the hip.

This is a major challenge for me... no chest mounted LRM.... there it goes my FarFire Revolver system.....

[Koniving]

I stand slightly corrected, by the wording they could have kept the shoulder-mounted SRM-6 alongside the chest mounted LRM-20 (which kinda makes sense considering they split the LRM-20 into two racks of 10 but kept the guts of it on the left side out of necessity; so the loading, feeding, etc. mechanisms are all on the left and it just feeds missiles to the tubes on the right; given that it fires once every 10 seconds there's a lot of time to do this even if the ten tubes had to be fed one missile at a time; it lightly likely feeds higher over the chest, meaning this one has to use the often lore-used nose cockpit rather than the sometimes lore-used chest cockpit.)

However, they dropped it in order to run the extra cables necessary for the Large Laser, as the high placement of the SRM-6 on the left side apparently kept it in the way. The low placement of the old AC/20 and thus the new Gauss Rifle evidently didn't cause an issue for the right side.

Karl Streiger, on 29 May 2017 - 04:58 AM, said:

This is a major challenge for me... no chest mounted LRM.... there it goes my FarFire Revolver system.....

I think I said something about that before. I think the concept is still good, it'd just be modified for SRM-6s and the hip system modified for LRM-20.
Of course this leaves the question... how big are the missiles? Because according to the Atlas schematic the engine is in the gut, and the each tube has its own magazine (similar to the SRM-6 you designed for the hip).

Now if I can just English, we'd be great. "It lightly feeds." Nah, "it likely feeds."

Edited by Koniving, 29 May 2017 - 05:06 AM.

[darqsyde]

Koniving, on 28 May 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

Well, without looking this is like saying there are dinosaurs in Battletech.

Edit: Forgot the dinosaurs!

Which is entirely true, but without proof no one would believe me.
So lets take a peek.

Planet Mesozoa? Thats a little on the nose don't you think?

[Koniving]

darqsyde, on 29 May 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

Planet Mesozoa? Thats a little on the nose don't you think?

I'm not sure I understand?

[Fyrwulf]

Koniving, on 29 May 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

I'm not sure I understand?

Dinosaurs existed during the Mesozoic era, therefor the planet name is a pun. Also, there are JP-style cloned dinosaurs on one of the continents of the planet Caph.